Nok Air’s Boeing 737 max 8 plans hit turbulence

[Georgealbert]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Y'all got shares in Boeing then?

 

Some infrequent fliers hear "737 MAX" and their <deleted> pucker. The CEO of Nok is right to be reticent. The public perception needs to be properly addressed, and the best way Boeing can get away from that is totally by dropping this 'MAX' label from all their products on offer.

 

But first, they do need to stop cutting corners and build airplanes and avionics that are fit for purpose and not bodge jobs on air frames from the +50 years ago.

Why would my post make you think I like Boeing, I was just posting some facts and some links.

 

Yes, I agree with the rest of your post, but most flyers would never know what aircraft they are getting on, until they read it in the safety leaflet at their seat.

 

Good summary of Boeing history of issues in this link.

 

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/why-boeings-problems-with-737-max-began-more-than-25-years-ago#:~:text=The flaws in the software,the deaths of 346 people.

[Ben Zioner]

 

Methinks we are going to fly in C919s pretty soon..

[Rimmer]

Some baiting and flaming posts have been removed, also replies

[Georgealbert]

22 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

 

Methinks we are going to fly in C919s pretty soon..

Why not? Maybe in a few years it will prove to be good aircraft.

 

If it gets FAA and EASA airworthiness certification, it could be a competitor for both Boeing and Airbus, but will need to be lower price than it currently is.

[stargrazer9889]

What I like about the B737 over the similar size Airbus, is the extra room

in the overhead bins. Seats and leg room are the same. I hope that, people

who have worked in Boeing do let the media know all the problems which

have caused tuese latest problems, and some people need to lose their jobs

at the Boeing factory. Maybe even the top position, if they were involved

with these problems in any manner at all. Jùst my opinion.

[BusyB]

9 hours ago, Kinnock said:

Thai Lion Air fly the Max 9 .... but it's the sardine seat plan with a door where the panel blew out.

 

But all the 737 Max series are suspect in my view .... been modified too many times when a complete new design was needed.

 

They've cut so many corners on those planes to save a few bucks that the damn things are all 5 meters too short.

[BusyB]

57 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Why would my post make you think I like Boeing, I was just posting some facts and some links.

 

Yes, I agree with the rest of your post, but most flyers would never know what aircraft they are getting on, until they read it in the safety leaflet at their seat.

 

Good summary of Boeing history of issues in this link.

 

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/why-boeings-problems-with-737-max-began-more-than-25-years-ago#:~:text=The flaws in the software,the deaths of 346 people.

 

This is all what happens when you take a brilliant engineering company and turn it into a money machine and sinecure for favorite politicians and deregulate safeguarding systems to enable that. When financiers and 'shareholder value' take over, safety goes out the window - literally as we now see.

 

Nok Air is sensible. I've got a pretty good grounding and background in aviation and airlines. I love flying. Feel safer in a microlight at 5000 feet than riding a motorbike taxi. If I got to the end of an airbridge and found I was about to board a 73Max I'd do a smart about turn even if I lost the fare.

 

That story is not over by a long chalk. The lies, messing around, denial and downright contempt for passenger and crew lives are evident in both the company upper management still, as well as the cuddly relationship with the people who are supposed to be regulating them. We're seeing an extended PR campaign by both parties.

 

Some flight booking sites are wising up to it as well, and advising potential pax that they will be flying the Max. I can't remember which, but I saw it reported recently (with evidence).

 

For info I was a great fan of Boeing when it was an engineering company, and we operated 72s and early 73s. Knew 72s intimately having spent many years dispatching them and on cockpit jump seats on duty. Always flew up front when I was free riding on holiday as well. Fabulous machines. Had no qualms flying on a TG 77 back to Europe recently. But Max? No way José. Rather walk or take the bus.

 

That company needs a complete scrubbing from the inside out with wire brushes and bleach. And above all it needs returning to the engineers.

[Georgealbert]

3 minutes ago, BusyB said:

 

This is all what happens when you take a brilliant engineering company and turn it into a money machine and sinecure for favorite politicians and deregulate safeguarding systems to enable that. When financiers and 'shareholder value' take over, safety goes out the window - literally as we now see.

 

Nok Air is sensible. I've got a pretty good grounding and background in aviation and airlines. I love flying. Feel safer in a microlight at 5000 feet than riding a motorbike taxi. If I got to the end of an airbridge and found I was about to board a 73Max I'd do a smart about turn even if I lost the fare.

 

That story is not over by a long chalk. The lies, messing around, denial and downright contempt for passenger and crew lives are evident in both the company upper management still, as well as the cuddly relationship with the people who are supposed to be regulating them. We're seeing an extended PR campaign by both parties.

 

Some flight booking sites are wising up to it as well, and advising potential pax that they will be flying the Max. I can't remember which, but I saw it reported recently (with evidence).

 

For info I was a great fan of Boeing when it was an engineering company, and we operated 72s and early 73s. Knew 72s intimately having spent many years dispatching them and on cockpit jump seats on duty. Always flew up front when I was free riding on holiday as well. Fabulous machines. Had no qualms flying on a TG 77 back to Europe recently. But Max? No way José. Rather walk or take the bus.

 

That company needs a complete scrubbing from the inside out with wire brushes and bleach. And above all it needs returning to the engineers.

Fully agree with your post, but you would never get me up in a microlight.

 

I also think a problem occurs when most do not check what aircraft type they will be flying when the tickets are booked, and of course the aircraft can be changed out, due to delays and technical issues at anytime.

 

I remember a friend showing me pictures of 2 ATR aircrafts which his company had emailed, telling him that they considered one model safe and the other unsafe, following a crash. The staff were told not to board the one type when they got to the aircraft on the runway, similar to what you suggested for yourself.

 

  I still don’t think Boeing will make the changes needed, as the FAA has lifted the grounding. Maybe as someone suggested earlier, there will a rebranding and the word max, just removed. Also will some of the issues found with the max, is there not some concerns for all of their aircraft models, if the policies and practise are not up to standard?

[NanLaew]

14 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

Why would my post make you think I like Boeing, I was just posting some facts and some links.

 

Yes, I agree with the rest of your post, but most flyers would never know what aircraft they are getting on, until they read it in the safety leaflet at their seat.

 

Good summary of Boeing history of issues in this link.

 

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/why-boeings-problems-with-737-max-began-more-than-25-years-ago#:~:text=The flaws in the software,the deaths of 346 people.

 

Yes, your subsequent posts do confirm that you don't have a bias so my apologies for being presumptive.

 

A broadly agree with you that "most flyers would never know what aircraft they are getting on" but I would caution that more flyers are paying attention to these incidents in the media and most all travel booking websites state precisely what equipment is serving the routes they're looking at. The 'I'm not flying on that' decision based on airframes may no longer be the preserve of your average aircraft anorak.

 

Talking of, personally, I like to check the ID plate riveted inside the top frame of the front door of any 737 I am boarding, so I can check on its age and history later (if it hasn't crashed first of course). I haven't been able to find a similar easy reference on the Airbuses.

[Georgealbert]

12 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Yes, your subsequent posts do confirm that you don't have a bias so my apologies for being presumptive.

 

A broadly agree with you that "most flyers would never know what aircraft they are getting on" but I would caution that more flyers are paying attention to these incidents in the media and most all travel booking websites state precisely what equipment is serving the routes they 're looking at. The 'I'm not flying on that' decision based on airframes may no longer be the preserve of your average aircraft anorak.

 

Talking of, personally, I like to check the ID plate riveted inside the top frame of the front door of any 737 I am boarding, so I can check on its age and history later (if it hasn't crashed first of course). I haven't been able to find a similar easy reference on the Airbuses.

No need to apologise, I didn’t take it personally.

 

Yes understand what you say about aircraft type when booking, the only problem is that airlines can change aircraft type up until boarding, and I believe no insurance would pay for a refund in this situation, so you could be faced with putting up with it, or losing your money.

 

Can say I have never looked at the ID plates you mentioned. There is very little online about those ID plates, but found this quote, but does not say which airline, so maybe it is airline dependant.

 

“On the A320s of the company I work for, data plates are located on three locations - top of L1 and R1 door frames, Bolted side of cockpit wall”

[metisdead]

Off topic posts about road safety in Thailand contravening our Community Standards have been removed.

[BusyB]

8 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

No need to apologise, I didn’t take it personally.

 

Yes understand what you say about aircraft type when booking, the only problem is that airlines can change aircraft type up until boarding, and I believe no insurance would pay for a refund in this situation, so you could be faced with putting up with it, or losing your money.

 

Can say I have never looked at the ID plates you mentioned. There is very little online about those ID plates, but found this quote, but does not say which airline, so maybe it is airline dependant.

 

“On the A320s of the company I work for, data plates are located on three locations - top of L1 and R1 door frames, Bolted side of cockpit wall”

 

I believe Ryanair (believe it or not) will refund anyone who doesn't want to board a Max8 - unless they've reverted since and I missed it. O'Leary said it a few months back after the 8 was cleared for ops again.

 

But I'd rather take a bus than fly Ryanair whatever the model.

[markus]

On 2/3/2024 at 5:40 AM, Georgealbert said:

Here is a comparison of the safety records of Boeing and Airbus.

 

https://www.solotravellerapp.com/airbus-vs-boeing-safety/#:~:text=Fatal Accidents&text=Out of these 147 accidents,it comes to fatal accidents.

<< ... between the years 2010 and 2019...>> ❓❓❓

[Georgealbert]

8 hours ago, markus said:

<< ... between the years 2010 and 2019...>> ❓❓❓

Sorry, but I thought the article gave a good overview on the policies and philosophies at the two companies. Giving the background to how they have a different approach to design of their aircraft.

 

The article is from November 2023, but you will have ask the reporter Jennifer Morris, why the NTSB data, from those years were used. I doubt that the general overview and conclusions would be effected with data from the last 10, 15, 20 years.

 

You can use google also, so why not post a better link, if you don’t like mine.

Edited February 4 by Georgealbert

[Bar4]

On 2/3/2024 at 9:09 PM, BusyB said:

For info I was a great fan of Boeing when it was an engineering company, and we operated 72s and early 73s. Knew 72s intimately having spent many years dispatching them and on cockpit jump seats on duty. Always flew up front when I was free riding on holiday as well. Fabulous machines. Had no qualms flying on a TG 77 back to Europe recently. But Max? No way José. Rather walk or take the bus.

 

I remember 707's. Great aircraft but noisy as fark. Think they eventually got banned in Australia. What a sad state of affairs for a once great company.

 

[Georgealbert]

9 hours ago, BusyB said:

 

I believe Ryanair (believe it or not) will refund anyone who doesn't want to board a Max8 - unless they've reverted since and I missed it. O'Leary said it a few months back after the 8 was cleared for ops again.

 

But I'd rather take a bus than fly Ryanair whatever the model.

That is very interesting, I see Michael O’Leary flipped and changed his view from December 2019, to March 2020. I can find no further statements from the CEO on the subject. Hopefully he is a man of his word, and his statement is not now just a forgotten PR exercise, as Ryanair have 87 max 8 in service, but no max 9.

 

I have never had the pleasure of using Ryanair.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ryanair-boeing-737-max-plane-crash-passenger-safety-aircraft-michael-oleary-a9255601.html

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ryanair-boeing-737-max-cancel-flight-refund-nervous-flyer-a9375746.html#

The only problem I think is his view is not reflected on Ryanair refund page.

 

“Refund Policy

 

Ryanair tickets are generally non-refundable. If your flight operated and you didn’t travel, you’re not entitled to a refund. You may have valid reasons for deciding not to travel, but our business model is simple - we don’t offer refunds to people who don’t travel because the seat you booked has operated empty in your absence.  
 

In rare instances where Ryanair has cancelled your flight, failed to operate the flight reasonably according to schedule or you were denied boarding you may be entitled to a refund in accordance with the applicable Passenger Rights Regulations. You may also be entitled to a refund if an immediate family member who is not travelling with you dies within 28 days of your booked flight or if you or someone on your booking is seriously ill or passes away before your trip.”

 

https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/articles/12896766243857-Refund-Policy

 

Edited February 4 by Georgealbert

[BusyB]

Like I said, it's not over yet by a long chalk:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/05/boeing-may-delay-more-737-max-deliveries-after-new-production-glitch-found

 

 

[Georgealbert]

On 2/5/2024 at 5:07 AM, Georgealbert said:

That is very interesting, I see Michael O'Leary flipped and changed his view from December 2019, to March 2020. I can find no further statements from the CEO on the subject. Hopefully he is a man of his word, and his statement is not now just a forgotten PR exercise, as Ryanair have 87 max 8 in service, but no max 9.

 

I have never had the pleasure of using Ryanair.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ryanair-boeing-737-max-plane-crash-passenger-safety-aircraft-michael-oleary-a9255601.html

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ryanair-boeing-737-max-cancel-flight-refund-nervous-flyer-a9375746.html#

The only problem I think is his view is not reflected on Ryanair refund page.

 

“Refund Policy

 

Ryanair tickets are generally non-refundable. If your flight operated and you didn't travel, you're not entitled to a refund. You may have valid reasons for deciding not to travel, but our business model is simple - we don't offer refunds to people who don't travel because the seat you booked has operated empty in your absence.  
 

In rare instances where Ryanair has canceled your flight, failed to operate the flight reasonably according to schedule or you were denied boarding you may be entitled to a refund in accordance with the applicable Passenger Rights Regulations. You may also be entitled to a refund if an immediate family member who is not traveling with you dies within 28 days of your booked flight or if you or someone on your booking is seriously ill or passes away before your trip.”

 

https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/articles/12896766243857-Refund-Policy

 

Seems that Ryanair and Michael O'Leary, still really likes the max aircraft, providing the price is right, regardless of any safety issues.

 

Which is the real O’Leary?

 

https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/01/29/ryanair-backs-boeing-as-profit-expectations-take-a-fall

 

 

Edited February 6 by Georgealbert

[kimamey]

On 2/3/2024 at 11:40 AM, Georgealbert said:

Here is a comparison of the safety records of Boeing and Airbus.

 

https://www.solotravellerapp.com/airbus-vs-boeing-safety/#:~:text=Fatal Accidents&text=Out of these 147 accidents,it comes to fatal accidents.

You do need to separate incidents occurring due to manufacturing faults from those due to pilot error or poor maintenance. Even if Boeing manage to turn things around and produce well put together planes, if passengers don't want to fly in them then they won't despite any logic. It's a production failure and a PR one as well.

[Georgealbert]

2 hours ago, kimamey said:

You do need to separate incidents occurring due to manufacturing faults from those due to pilot error or poor maintenance. Even if Boeing manage to turn things around and produce well put together planes, if passengers don't want to fly in them then they won't despite any logic. It's a production failure and a PR one as well.

Yes, fully agree, people are currently very aware of the max 9 issues, but like the max 8 previously, I wonder how long before passengers forget. 
 

The FAA said on 5 February that  nearly 94% (135 of 144) of the affected aircraft have been inspected and have been returned to service.

Boeing state they have 4783 MAX aircraft in its backlog as of December 31, 2023, it would be interesting to see how many are cancelled in 2024.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/faa-halt-boeing-max-production-expansion-hit-airlines-suppliers-2024-01-25/

 

My previous link says Boeing tries to have a pilot-centric approach to aircraft design and believe in giving pilots more control and decision-making. Then it is poor design, poor manufacturing, poor overview and poor quality control, that completely defeats these aims.

 

https://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlines-airports/boeing-says-improperly-drilled-fuselage-holes-to-impact-plane-deliveries

Edited February 6 by Georgealbert

[RubbaJohnny]

Flight earch engine allows you to exclude any type of plane from a earch. Once you have choen the carrier you can refine the earch ome have no max in their fleet.Having flown in 4 seater in the Nepalese  Himalaya anything with a galley is an upgrade and safer than the local roads.

[impulse]

Here's a couple of updates...  Edit: And some great details, diagrams and photos of the issue.  Worth a look.

 

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/ntsb-report-on-alaska-flight-1282-says-key-bolts-missing-when-boeing-delivered-jet/

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/06/business/ntsb-boeing-alaska-door-plug-blowout-faa/index.html

 

Edited February 7 by impulse

[Georgealbert]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

Here's a couple of updates...  Edit: And some great details, diagrams and photos of the issue.  Worth a look.

 

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/ntsb-report-on-alaska-flight-1282-says-key-bolts-missing-when-boeing-delivered-jet/

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/06/business/ntsb-boeing-alaska-door-plug-blowout-faa/index.html

 

Yes more bad news for Boeing.

 

Full preliminary report here.

 

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/DCA24MA063 Preliminary report.pdf

 

Boeing’s response to the preliminary report.

 

https://www.boeing.com/737-9-updates#updates

 

The safety alert for operators referred to in the reports’ safety actions SAFO 24001 is below, which extends inspections to the 737-900ER, not just the max aircraft..

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Georgealbert

[tomazbodner]

Deleting this as same information is in 2 posts above, just from different source.

Edited February 7 by tomazbodner

[markus]

On 2/4/2024 at 10:47 PM, Georgealbert said:

Sorry, but I thought the article gave a good overview on the policies and philosophies at the two companies. Giving the background to how they have a different approach to design of their aircraft.

 

The article is from November 2023, but you will have ask the reporter Jennifer Morris, why the NTSB data, from those years were used. I doubt that the general overview and conclusions would be effected with data from the last 10, 15, 20 years.

 

You can use google also, so why not post a better link, if you don’t like mine.

It's not your fault.

[Georgealbert]

FAA giving Boring 90 days to improve quality control after the 737 Max 9 door plug incident.

 

://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/faa-tells-boeing-come-up-with-plan-90-days-fix-quality-issues-2024-02-28/

 

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/updates-grounding-boeing-737-9-max-aircraft

Edited February 29 by Georgealbert

[Georgealbert]

Seems that Boeings’ problems, are not stopping the airlines placing new orders.

 

Then again the airlines have very little commercial choice, with Airbus and Boeing having most of the market. Given the delays and backlogs of orders, the airlines seem to want to spread their orders so they can hope to increase fleets to keep up with demand.

 

The Chinese alternative aircraft, Comac C919, is no where near being certified outside of China.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/american-airlines-orders-260-new-aircraft-airbus-boeing-embraer-2024-03-04/

[Georgealbert]

The news only gets worse for Boeing. A few incidents this week, probably more the airlines faults, but Boeing will share the blame.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/08/boeing-plane-off-runway-houston-texas

[bamnutsak]

1 minute ago, Georgealbert said:

The news only gets worse for Boeing. A few incidents this week, probably more the airlines faults, but Boeing will share the blame.

 

Not sure this is related to aircraft type.

 

More like an airport ops issue, with a requirement to vacate the runway (too) quickly, and a trailing aircraft a bit too close.

 

 

The tire falling off was a 777. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/united-plane-loses-tire-takeoff-san-francisco-international-airport/3475104/

 

Stuck rudder a 737 Max 8.  https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-ntsb-probes-stuck-rudder-pedal-issue-boeing-737-max-flight-2024-03-07/

 

The compressor stall was a 737-800 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/passenger-video-shows-flames-shoot-united-airlines-engine-midflight-rcna142217

 

 

All United flights though.

 

 

 

 

[KannikaP]

Turbulence, headwinds. clouds.............impressive English. 555