Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[jwest10]

On 7/14/2024 at 12:23 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

Consequences (fines) for not having a TIN is a non-issue for the overwhelming majority.  The only time this could come up is in the highly unlikely event of a foreigner owing verifiable unpaid taxes, which would come up in the even highlier unlikelier event of a non-Thai-employed foreigner being audited.

 

There is no method or process or inducement for Thai tax authorities to search out non-compliance.  In the normal course of events, this could never occur in the first 180 days of the year, and the requirement only kicks in 60 days after the threshold has been crossed.  That point varies by individual due to residency status and filing status and DTA's and personal/spousal exemptions........and remittances, which TRD has no record of.

 

I wouldn't expect TRD to release a fleet of BMW smart car-rackens directly linked to the immigration databases along with international bank databases during the second half of the year, in a concerted effort to track down and punish non-TIN-compliant foreigners.

 

 

Who knows and to be frank even the Revenue Department or anyone knows how things will pan out but it has been advised to wait until Jan 25 and I believe all the forms 90 and 91  will be updated later on in the latter months of 2024
One thing noticed on Form 91 and on system 2008 that is states Personal Income Tax  from Employment only  but of course noticed  the personal allowances of 100 and 190k allowances but nowhere the first  150K income  tax exempt 
Yes, we await and think we have to and thanks everyone for the wonderful input and of course massive thanks to Mike Lister.

Just today I was asking my Thai friends who know people in the Revenue and they are still unaware of this ex-pat income tax situation!!!
Also and not sure one can use the Thai ID number on  the card but the forms will be updated later on in the year.

 

Edited July 15 by jwest10

[NoDisplayName]

17 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

One thing noticed on Form 91 and on system 2008 that is states Personal Income Tax  from Employment only  but of course noticed  the personal allowances of 100 and 190k allowances but nowhere the first  150K income  tax exempt 

 

Not tax exempt.  It IS technically taxed, but at 0% according to the tax table.  That is the 0% bracket.

 

If it were tax exempt, there would be a 150K exemption we could claim, and then the tax tables would account for that and begin immediately with the 5% bracket.

 

I think that may be confusing some people when discussing dual-taxation.  Some things are taxed in an origin country at a zero or low rate, but can be taxed again in a resident country at a higher rate, with the difference possibly being applied to tax credits in the source country.

 

My interpretation.  I'm not a tax accountant.

 

*I used my pink ID number last week to e-file online returns.

 

 

Edited July 15 by NoDisplayName

[jwest10]

45 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Not tax exempt.  It IS technically taxed, but at 0% according to the tax table.  That is the 0% bracket.

 

If it were tax exempt, there would be a 150K exemption we could claim, and then the tax tables would account for that and begin immediately with the 5% bracket.

 

I think that may be confusing some people when discussing dual-taxation.  Some things are taxed in an origin country at a zero or low rate, but can be taxed again in a resident country at a higher rate, with the difference possibly being applied to tax credits in the source country.

 

My interpretation.  I'm not a tax accountant.

 

*I used my pink ID number last week to e-file online returns.

 

 

NoDisplay as a matter of informarion what site did you do this on line please.

 

Edited July 15 by jwest10

[SouthThailand]

If Thailand want me, a foreigner, pay tax here, why would they not make it easier for me to get a TIN number?

I must go to my local Revenue Department in person. No online request possible?

TIN number request form (LP 10.1) is all in Thai, and yes, I can translate using an app, but why not make it easy and use English form for non-Thai? Guess it is too much work.

 

Thai government might want me to pay tax.

I want to go to the Revenue Department, in and out in 10 minutes. That's it. Any longer is waste of my time.

No TIN, No TAX.

 

I will review of course when it gets tied to permit-to-stay extensions.

 

 

ST

 

 

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, SouthThailand said:

If Thailand want me, a foreigner, pay tax here, why would they not make it easier for me to get a TIN number?

I must go to my local Revenue Department in person. No online request possible?

TIN number request form (LP 10.1) is all in Thai, and yes, I can translate using an app, but why not make it easy and use English form for non-Thai? Guess it is too much work.

 

Thai government might want me to pay tax.

I want to go to the Revenue Department, in and out in 10 minutes. That's it. Any longer is waste of my time.

No TIN, No TAX.

 

I will review of course when it gets tied to permit-to-stay extensions.

 

 

ST

 

 

Does your home country Revenue makes forms available in Thai!

[SouthThailand]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Does your home country Revenue makes forms available in Thai!

My home country RD has forms in multiple languages.

 

Most immigration forms have English written together with Thai, so it is possible.

Not all foreigners can read Thai.

 

ST

[NoDisplayName]

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Does your home country Revenue makes forms available in Thai!

 

USA currently has tax forms in twenty languages.

No Thai, but for some reason one is Khmer.

https://www.irs.gov/help/languages

[Phulublub]

22 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

This is why people will benefit from advice tailored to their personal circumstances.

you have assumed that the person was over 65, I did not. There could be a ‘100k Remitted Pension Allowance“ there may not I am waiting for my consultation next month to be sure exactly how much of my assessable income I can bring in tax free

Your example of a UK pensioner on the state pension.  By definition, therefore, he will be over 65.  Try and be consistent.

 

Your table - which could be a useful resource if able to be amended as required to accommodate all possible allowances and deductions - fails to allow for his 190K over 65 allownace, hence your incorrect conclusion.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

5 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

Indeed the UK/Thailand DTA does not appear (to my eyes at any rate) to prevent double taxation in the case of the UK State Pension and company pensions - simply because it makes absolutely no mention of either pension type in its text anywhere. So how could it be said to afford protection against double taxation in the case of these 2 particular pension types?

 

While current TRD exemptions and allowances would, in practice, result in a zero tax liability for those whose sole source of assessable income is the UK State Pension (as in my case), they would presumably prove insufficient to prevent any double taxation arising for those in receipt of company pensions - all the more so if they are also in receipt of the State Pension.

 

In any event, it would IMHO be extremely foolish to rule out entirely the possibility of the TRD at some future date reducing - or even completely abolishing - all existing exemptions and allowances.

 

 

I believe paragraph 23 of the DTA covers this. 

 

The UK State pension and Company pensions fall into this area as (unike most Government Pensions) they are not exempt but are merely one form of Assessable Income that is potentially taxable in both Countries but individuals will be able to claim a credit in one for tax paid in the other.

 

PH

Edited July 15 by Phulublub

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

Your example of a UK pensioner on the state pension.  By definition, therefore, he will be over 65.  Try and be consistent.

Do please read what was written, not what you assume.

I DID NOT say that the person in receipt of a U.K. pension was receiving a state pension. That is your inference not my statement.

 

As I have pointed out there are numerous pensions that are able to be claimed under the age of 65.

 

Please do not put words in my mouth in a vain attempt to appear more knowledgeable than you are.

I am extremely careful in my phrasing, you should be equally careful in your disparaging remarks lest they rebound as this one has.

 

[Mike Lister]

As author of the thread, I think this debate should be allowed to die, it's not constructive and not conducive to the spirit or purpose of the thread.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

Your table - which could be a useful resource if able to be amended as required to accommodate all possible allowances and deductions - fails to allow for his 190K over 65 allownace, hence your incorrect conclusion.

 

It is not my table, I make no claims of authorship. It is a spreadsheet that is available on the web. It doesn’t fail to allow for the 190K over 65 allownace. My conclusion was far from incorrect, your assumption and assertion that the data was from a person who is over 65, is wrong hence your criticism is equally flawed.

 

Please, rather than complaining that something is flawed, do some research. Or better yet produce a simple to use spreadsheet that has every possible DTA and all allowances available for every user, though naturally you can’t as it would be hugely unnecessary and impractical, not to mention it would take hundreds of man hours for a skilled programmer and would be obsolete almost as soon as it were produced.

[Mike Lister]

10 hours ago, SouthThailand said:

My home country RD has forms in multiple languages.

 

Most immigration forms have English written together with Thai, so it is possible.

Not all foreigners can read Thai.

 

ST

 

10 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

USA currently has tax forms in twenty languages.

No Thai, but for some reason one is Khmer.

https://www.irs.gov/help/languages

Comparing the US Revenue facilities with that of a developing country that is one fifth its size, isn't helpful. Arguably, Laos, Malay and Chinese are the second most popular languages here yet none of the forms are written in those languages. Immigration forms contain some English but English is way down the priority list, other than for overseas business and tourism, neither of which impact on Revenue to a great degree.

[OJAS]

11 hours ago, Phulublub said:

I believe paragraph 23 of the DTA covers this. 

 

The UK State pension and Company pensions fall into this area as (unike most Government Pensions) they are not exempt but are merely one form of Assessable Income that is potentially taxable in both Countries but individuals will be able to claim a credit in one for tax paid in the other.

 

PH

 

Strongly disagree. The latest HMRC Digest of Double Taxation Treaties makes it unequivocally clear that absolutely zero relief is afforded in the case of State and company pensions. Nothing, zilch, nada.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b05425fed915d1317445ed2/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

and scroll down to page 34 for Thailand.

 

What might be of interest, though, is the number of other countries in which there are provisions for full relief for State and company pensions included in the relevant UK DTA. So the fact that no such relief is available in Thailand was presumably at the insistence of the Thai side when the current UK/Thailand DTA was being negotiated 30+ years ago.

 

Edited July 16 by OJAS

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Comparing the US Revenue facilities with that of a developing country that is one fifth its size, isn't helpful. Arguably, Laos, Malay and Chinese are the second most popular languages here yet none of the forms are written in those languages. Immigration forms contain some English but English is way down the priority list, other than for overseas business and tourism, neither of which impact on Revenue to a great degree.

 

Someone asked.  I was trying to be helpful.

 

14 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Does your home country Revenue makes forms available in Thai!

 

[Lorry]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

, Laos, Malay and Chinese are the second most popular languages here

That would be Burmese.

The private sector does provide many languages.  BBL's ATM are in Burmese, Lao, Khmer, English, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic.

The government not so much. 

[Mike Lister]

54 minutes ago, Lorry said:

That would be Burmese.

The private sector does provide many languages.  BBL's ATM are in Burmese, Lao, Khmer, English, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic.

The government not so much. 

Yea, that too.

[stat]

On 7/15/2024 at 12:45 PM, Mike Lister said:

Does your home country Revenue makes forms available in Thai!

My home country does provide the tax declaration in English. Kind of funny that I have to explain to an UK expat that english is the No1 language.

[stat]

14 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Comparing the US Revenue facilities with that of a developing country that is one fifth its size, isn't helpful. Arguably, Laos, Malay and Chinese are the second most popular languages here yet none of the forms are written in those languages. Immigration forms contain some English but English is way down the priority list, other than for overseas business and tourism, neither of which impact on Revenue to a great degree.

English speakers are paying more taxes in Thailand then a million of laotian construction worker.

[UKresonant]

On 7/15/2024 at 8:51 AM, OJAS said:

 

Indeed the UK/Thailand DTA does not appear (to my eyes at any rate) to prevent double taxation in the case of the UK State Pension and company pensions - simply because it makes absolutely no mention of either pension type in its text anywhere. So how could it be said to afford protection against double taxation in the case of these 2 particular pension types?

 

While current TRD exemptions and allowances would, in practice, result in a zero tax liability for those whose sole source of assessable income is the UK State Pension (as in my case), they would presumably prove insufficient to prevent any double taxation arising for those in receipt of company pensions - all the more so if they are also in receipt of the State Pension.

 

In any event, it would IMHO be extremely foolish to rule out entirely the possibility of the TRD at some future date reducing - or even completely abolishing - all existing exemptions and allowances.

 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1981/1546/schedules/made

 

Yes will Article 23 3) of the UK TH help with those pension (or not)?

 

'(3) In the case of Thailand, United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income.

(4) For the purposes of paragraphs (1) and (3) of this Article profits, income and capital gains owned by a resident of a Contracting State which may be taxed in the other Contracting State in accordance with this Convention shall be deemed to arise from sources in that other Contracting State'

 

But if not all income is remitted to Thailand, declaring all your income to calculate your relief per pound could be a pain. 

 

RD could make the credit relief Impracticle, depending on the extent of supporting documentation required.

[stats]

A repost of a previously removed post has been removed, along with ensuing replies.

 

[Mike Lister]

A good but different summary from, of all places, The Thai/Russian Chamber of Commerce, useful for newbies who want a 360 overview quickly.

 

https://trcc.or.th/legal-issues/tpost/23zky6yn51-thailand-to-tax-overseas-income-of-thai

[OJAS]

11 hours ago, UKresonant said:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1981/1546/schedules/made

 

Yes will Article 23 3) of the UK TH help with those pension (or not)?

 

'(3) In the case of Thailand, United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income.

(4) For the purposes of paragraphs (1) and (3) of this Article profits, income and capital gains owned by a resident of a Contracting State which may be taxed in the other Contracting State in accordance with this Convention shall be deemed to arise from sources in that other Contracting State'

 

But if not all income is remitted to Thailand, declaring all your income to calculate your relief per pound could be a pain. 

 

RD could make the credit relief Impracticle, depending on the extent of supporting documentation required.

 

But may Article 23(3) only be said to apply to those income sources which are specifically mentioned in other Articles of the UK/TH DTA (aka Convention), which the State and company pensions are not?

[Phulublub]

38 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

But may Article 23(3) only be said to apply to those income sources which are specifically mentioned in other Articles of the UK/TH DTA (aka Convention), which the State and company pensions are not?

Not how I read it. 

 

12 hours ago, UKresonant said:

United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income

seems pretty explicit to me.  If you have (Assessable) income in the UK, on which you have paid UK tax, then you can use the tax paid as a credit against any tax due on that income that you remit to Thailand.

 

PH

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

A good but different summary from, of all places, The Thai/Russian Chamber of Commerce, useful for newbies who want a 360 overview quickly.

 

https://trcc.or.th/legal-issues/tpost/23zky6yn51-thailand-to-tax-overseas-income-of-thai

Interesting link that clearly addresses the main concern of the Russian expats providing concrete solutions that any Thai tax resident can pursue to avoid or delay paying personal income tax on overseas income.

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Interesting link that clearly addresses the main concern of the Russian expats providing concrete solutions that any Thai tax resident can pursue to avoid or delay paying personal income tax on overseas income.

Sure. But keeping the funds overseas is legal tax avoidance (under present rules), rather than anything more serious. Which I suspect is why the TRD would like to see Worldwide Taxation.

[jwest10]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Sure. But keeping the funds overseas is legal tax avoidance (under present rules), rather than anything more serious. Which I suspect is why the TRD would like to see Worldwide Taxation.

Again, everyone, I went to my local tax office in Kanchanaburi today 17th July 2024 saying we have no information  and even those Thai who file taxes are stating this is absurd and do you not get taxed by your British Government  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, jwest10 said:

Again, everyone, I went to my local tax office in Kanchanaburi today 17th July 2024 saying we have no information  and even those Thai who file taxes are stating this is absurd and do you not get taxed by your British Government  

Exactly, and IMO they are the experts in what they want us to do.  But just to be clear, IMO they are not referring to an Expat who earns money either in Thailand or through doing anything in Thailand, they are referring to Expats that are retired/married and bring their previously taxed money to Thailand (just like all Tourists do).

 

When/If TRD provides their updated advice later this year as to how any change affects retired/married Expats, and/or any subsequent statements are made by TRD, The Finance Ministers, The PM or Cabinet, then and only then will we all know for certain what is expected of us retired/married Expats (not earning money in/from Thailand. Until/unless that happens, I am taking the advice as provided to Expats in Regional TRD Offices and to myself by a Thai Accredited Tax Company (based upon my current financial situation), I will not be lodging a tax return in 2025 for 2024.

[StraightTalk]

7 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thai Accredited Tax Company

Care to share the name of this 'Accredited Tax Company' ?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 minutes ago, StraightTalk said:

Care to share the name of this 'Accredited Tax Company' ?

Sorry - that was formal advice provided to myself on the basis that it was not 'published'.  The usual legal caveats as comes with any legal advice given to anyone else - you are not allowed to publish that advice.  However they are well known and have been referred to several times in this and other related threads.