New Tax Rules for Expats in Thailand Spark Concern

[bob smith]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Foreign sourced income earned before 1 January 2024 is taxed in accordance with the old rules. That means savings earned before 31 December 2023, are tax free when remitted, if remitted in a year other than the one in which they were earned.

good news..

 

looks like mr. taxman can't get his grubby little hands on what is inside my safe then!

 

bob.

[mania]

3 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Technically, if you are transferring money into Thailand, you are liable to providing a tax return, if only to prove you don't owe anything.

 

The question is whether this will be enforced. Same as motorcycle helmets.

I would hopefully guess it is the same as elsewhere in the world when it comes to filing requirements. No country tax department wants to be buried with Zero due tax returns so some say there is no need to file if nothing owed. BUT...of course if ever questioned it is on you to prove the point (source of any income) or transfers into Thailand in this case

 

In any case I guess we are all hopeful it is a storm in a teacup once finally seen firsthand. 

Edited May 30 by mania

[J Branche]

8 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

How would you verify any information in the statement, or that it is even a real statement? The US Embassy won't do it, and I doubt anyone in Thailand will accept a foreign issued bank statement. Like I said, they need to clarify a lot of things soon!

My opinion send the documents to Notary for the state your bank branch resides. Do an online meeting and identity verification.  Have them verify the documents.

The official digital statement, a web print out from the online account may be necessary.  The contact information for your local bank branch.  Present all documents to requesting Thai Authorized Agency.  Inform them US Banks operate differently and if further verification is Required the contact info and hours of operation of your bank are on the document.   

 

Please do Not be Rude, or Angry with these Thai Representatives We Are All learning how Foreigners Paying Taxes process is going to work.

Remember Thai's place living in Harmony highly.

[john donson]

Clear that immigration will need a proof of tax id soon...

 

what I don't get, we live here as expats, now buying a condo will be punished

 

but not for the non tax residents, that can bring their dirty money over here and buy up the condo's tax free... chinese, russian, whatever...

 

paying taxes and getting nothing at all in return...

 

who will benefit ? lawyers, tax offices, translation services, mfa, for translating all this crap into thai, off course, certified by mfa...

 

rich thai people know how to avoid this mess,  no problem to buy more property outside thailand for 'investment'

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, whitfield said:

Too many of these articles promoted by Tax "Experts".  The emphasis is on earned income.  So there are many loopholes, like inheritance, selling of a property, transfer money to wife etc.  Most pensions are taxed in home country so only the difference if any to pay.  I think the struggle to collect the tax will outweigh the gains.  We'll see, but remember it's income, not capital.

 

I suggest you read the link below, the new tax rule is not limited only to earned income in the sense that you describe it, it includes pensions, capital gains, inheritance, gifts etc.

 

[sammieuk1]

New tax rules spark panic, the richer you are the more income you bring in, the more panicked you get bet Anutin is laughing his knob off at this thread  🤔

[ryandb]

8 minutes ago, atpeace said:

SO true and people just don't get it.  Our home countries have many xpats filing taxes but for some reason this shouldn't apply to Thailand.  Everybody needs to chill. 

 

The odds of this being a minor inconvenience with no taxes paid here in Thailand are extremely high.  The new enforcement is to go after tax dodgers which are mostly Thai but we probably all know an xpat that isn't paying taxes and uses Thailand's loose tax tax enforcement to do this.  They still won't pay and probably won't have issues which is frustrating.  Depending on the country, tax avoidance was and probably will be the reason some choose to live here.

 

As I stated on the first few pages of the first thread on this issue.  This is  going to impact a few xpats and possibly millions of Thais.

 

I generally try to avoid extortion in my life, I didn't pick Thailand to avoid tax but it's something that fits with my beliefs, taxation is theft and is just corporate welfare in disguise.

[wensiensheng]

17 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

You mean you don't have any of this capital in interest bearing accounts, the stockmarket, real estate rentals, etc.?

Of course I do. And since January 2024 all of that income has been paid into a newly opened separate “income” account. All remittances to Thailand come from the “capital” account that predates January 2024.

 

obviously I can provide bank statements to show all income being credited to the “income” account with no remittances to Thailand, and most importantly bank statements of the “capital” account showing remittances to Thailand and no income being credited.

 

My only real query is whether I have to fill in a tax form to declare no taxable income (I have no Thai income at all), or whether I do not need to fill in a form at all.

[Mike Lister]

I'm out.

[Danderman123]

3 minutes ago, whitfield said:

Too many of these articles promoted by Tax "Experts".  The emphasis is on earned income.  So there are many loopholes, like inheritance, selling of a property, transfer money to wife etc.  Most pensions are taxed in home country so only the difference if any to pay.  I think the struggle to collect the tax will outweigh the gains.  We'll see, but remember it's income, not capital.

Yes, that's why it's called "income tax".

 

The problem with your post is that you are focused on the Thai government, whereas if I have to fill out a Thai tax return, I don't care about the Revenue Department's struggle to collect my money.

[pleple]

Corruption won’t let it happen 

It’s ok take it easy we all mad it’s not a competition 

[mikecha]

Yesterday there was an  article here that don't worry   about the tax   some legal person 

and today this article , what way to Go Left Right  up down  

 

think  will be a mistake 

also then new visa from June what will that bring in the tax system  the big guess game 

in 1 way they want expats spend more money   here and come here often so big  euro passing Hands 

and they also want Tax what next 

Most of us here pay car tax. land tax. food tax. Petrol/Diesel tax  bar tax.` electric tax   water Tax   what ever 

is that not enough ?

a yeah soon airport exit Tax entry Tax  

[Rimmer]

An off topic post has been removed also an unattributed and misleading post

[atpeace]

3 minutes ago, ryandb said:

 

I generally try to avoid extortion in my life, I didn't pick Thailand to avoid tax but it's something that fits with my beliefs, taxation is theft and is just corporate welfare in disguise.

OK, my running shoes cost 8k baht.  That is extortion? Should I shoplift my next pair?  Some truth in what you believe but just curious how would a society work without taxes?

[Presnock]

24 minutes ago, J Branche said:

Stop confusing people and spreading misinformation.

 

The information has been available since September 2023,

Thai Revenue Department is the Official Tax Authority in Thailand   rd.go.th
Go here https://www.rd.go.th/21/page-2.html click on 21 November 2023 document also know as Order P. 162/2023  signed by the Director General of the Thai Revenue Department (This document was posted in Thai Only)  Google Translate will translate PDF to many different languages 

 

Additional Reference 

Google. thai revenue department FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

US Tax Treaty Reference 

PDF Page 23

 

US Tax Agreement PDF Page 23

ARTICLE 20

Pensions and Social Security Payments

 1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.

 2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

 

If THIS information from Official sources is Not Accurate, Please share the email from the Thai Revenue Department stating otherwise.

so what misleading info did I passd on...I only mentioned what some forum members reported that they experienced when talking to RD in their local areas.  I have written many notes here quoting the US DTA since many months ago .  I read and understand the Thai language and I am well aware that nothing in this interpretation of the taxes remitted affects me and have written that too, so your complaint was not correct about anything in my note.  You also didn't add anything that hasn't been mentioned in this forum for many months already.

[IAMHERE]

5 hours ago, webfact said:

the expat community in Thailand faces significant adjustments.

I've had a Bangkok Bank account since 2011. Send my pension, retirement check,  IRS return and occasionally some from my Schwab trading account. 

Then I go online PC and move money to Kasikorn account to pay bills.

Well, no more of that. Bank says if I want to keep getting pension and retirement deposits then I can no longer use online or ATM.

Further I must show up in person at any branch to claim(acknowledge) my direct deposits (twice a month) and then take cash out or pay 120 baht to transfer money to Kasikorn. I CAN do 20 baht check and go deposit into Kasikorn.  

So very cumbersome and no where near as convenient as the last 12 years.

This started Tuesday 28th of May.

[mania]

7 minutes ago, john donson said:

Clear that immigration will need a proof of tax id soon...

 

what I don't get, we live here as expats, now buying a condo will be punished

 

 

Actually when you think about the need to live in Thailand  >180 days the year of funds imported to be considered a tax resident that does in a sense create another loophole for someone like you mentioned.

 

Meaning many times a person makes trips to Thailand fall in love with it as a retirement destination & while not living there yet starts to get ready to do so.

Meaning setup bank accounts, buy a condo etc & yet is still often is not a tax resident. They will be going back & forth a few times before the big move.

 

So I wonder in that situation since they are not a tax resident...at least not yet. Then move the next year all good? 

Again just wondering as we will eventually see the answers to all these speculative questions

[Danderman123]

8 minutes ago, pleple said:

Corruption won’t let it happen 

It’s ok take it easy we all mad it’s not a competition 

All corruption means in this context is that HiSos won't pay taxes,but the poor Farangs in the village must pay every Satang - if this plan is implemented.

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, atpeace said:

OK, my running shoes cost 8k baht.  That is extortion? Should I shoplift my next pair?  Some truth in what you believe but just curious how would a society work without taxes?

 

When do we get representation for our taxation? Do we get to vote here? Do we get permanent residency? Do we get to enjoy Thai SS and 35Baht Medical coverage?

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, mania said:

 

Actually when you think about the need to live in Thailand  >180 days the year of funds imported to be considered a tax resident that does in a sense create another loophole for someone like you mentioned.

 

Meaning many times a person makes trips to Thailand fall in love with it as a retirement destination & while not living there yet starts to get ready to do so.

Meaning setup bank accounts, buy a condo etc & yet is still often is not a tax resident. They will be going back & forth a few times before the big move.

 

So I wonder in that situation since they are not a tax resident...at least not yet. Then move the next year all good? 

Again just wondering as we will eventually see the answers to all these speculative questions

The flaw in the logic is the requirement to maintain a very large amount of cash in a Thai bank (or safe), or hand it to a Thai wife.

[cjinchiangrai]

Not worried. You have to pay somewhere. If you are not paying your taxes, maybe it is time you do.

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, wensiensheng said:

Of course I do. And since January 2024 all of that income has been paid into a newly opened separate “income” account. All remittances to Thailand come from the “capital” account that predates January 2024.

 

obviously I can provide bank statements to show all income being credited to the “income” account with no remittances to Thailand, and most importantly bank statements of the “capital” account showing remittances to Thailand and no income being credited.

 

My only real query is whether I have to fill in a tax form to declare no taxable income (I have no Thai income at all), or whether I do not need to fill in a form at all.

If no assessable income, no need to file a return

[CharlesHolzhauer]

58 minutes ago, Plus Esse Quam Simultatur said:

Who is the winner in this competition? 

Considering the time you spend here, you seem to be on the losing side. It may be helpful to read the 'Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand' <https://aseannow.com/topic/1324294-introduction-to-personal-income-tax-in-thailand/#comment-18857397> in particular TAX BANDS and TAX EXEMPTIONS DEDUCTIONS & ALLOWANCES (TEDA).

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

 

When do we get representation for our taxation? Do we get to vote here? Do we get permanent residency? Do we get to enjoy Thai SS and 35Baht Medical coverage?

What representation do Immigrants to your home country get for their taxes?

[IAMHERE]

3 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Tax treaties help, but you need to fill out a tax form to take advantage of the tax treaties. And the tax form may or may not accommodate deductions allowed by tax treaties.

I suspect an "AGENT" will be needed by many. Hope my visa agent has or is developing a relationship with the tax office.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

When do we get representation for our taxation? Do we get to vote here? Do we get permanent residency? Do we get to enjoy Thai SS and 35Baht Medical coverage?

Nope, you get a nice bowl of somtam and a cup of tea, both of which you have to pay for, that's it.

[Presnock]

51 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

(regards to Savings/Income before Jan 1st 2024) - Proving that will be the problem, no guidance on that yet. 

 

Well if one remits money into Thailand and doesn't file for a Tax id or file for taxes, that person may be contacted by the RD to provide proof of why the funds are not assessible and then it is up to the remitting person to provide sufficient proof that the RD will accept, i.e. DTA, LTR, whatever else one may have that they will accept.   This is my opinion anyway because I really don't know what the final documentation of the tax interpretation is going to be.  Still waiting even though I realize I will not be affected unless the Thai govt goes overboard!

[superal]

3 hours ago, Coxy said:

Looks like I will be spending at least 6 months in Cambodia or Laos.  I will not be donating anything to this government 

I  am being pedantic but true . To be on the safe side 6 months and 2 weeks not in Thailand . 179 days is under 6 months and I guarantee that the Thai authorities will do everything they can to make you pay . So no cutting it too fine , me thinks .

[AllanA]

I think a lot of the retirees will end up moving to another country now and most likely Cambodia or Vietnam as they won’t be able to afford being taxed in Thailand plus anyone thinking of Thailand as a place to retire now would seriously be thinking of a new destination. All this is definitely going to hurt places like Hua Hin, Pattaya, Chang Mai and outer Phuket where a lot of retirees currently live. 

[Thingamabob]

Far too much noise on this subject, mainly from those seeking to make money from selling their advice.