Using an overseas Debit Card to minimise paying tax for those of us staying over 180 days

[4MyEgo]

I am looking at ways to minimise paying tax (legally) from money remitted to Thailand from abroad.

 

A friend of mine told me to get a WISE Debit Card as I am with WISE and usually remit my overseas funds that way, but things have changed now.

 

I haven't remitted anything this year and am returning to my home country shortly, so am thinking about ordering one online and picking it up at my home land address.

 

I am thinking if I use my WISE Debit Card to shop, I may attract a fee of 5% at some shops here in the LOS even thought there is no fee charged to the seller, and maybe if I try to take some cash out from the ATM I will get charged a fee of 200-220 on 20,000 baht and then WISE charge me ?

 

Not sure how it all works, so would be very interest to know what members with a WISE Debit Card think and how they use this card and what charges if any they get charged and which stores charge a fee, e.g. Lotus, Big C, Makro, PTT etc etc, i.e. if they accept this debit card, and what charges for withdrawing Thai baht from the ATM's, and if it's only here or at WISE's end as well.

 

 

Edited August 6 by 4MyEgo

[Cameroni]

You will be charged 200 if you withdraw with the Wise card. However it is the best option. Think of transferring money to your bank account. Much more expensive if you pay tax. Wise is the way to go.

 

I think with Wise you get a monthly allowance ie maximum amoun you can withraw for free. After that you pay fees, but very small fees. It is on their website.

Edited August 6 by Cameroni

[bkk6060]

How does tax work with my Wise Account?

If you have questions about your taxes or filing a return — speak to a qualified professional. Wise can’t give you advice on your personal tax situation, and this article is meant for information purposes only.

---

We know tax can be complicated and stressful, but here’s a breakdown of how tax works with your Wise account.

Wise is required to follow local tax laws in every country we operate in. That means in some countries we might be required to:

• withhold on currency transfers,

• give customers an invoice for their remittance,

• report customer data to the local tax authorities. 

We try to be as transparent as possible about any tax we're required to withhold, and any information of yours we're required to report, however we're not authorised to provide you with any tax advice.

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Customers are required to disclose and pay any necessary taxes associated with transfers made through our systems, or on cash received into their Wise Account. 

The triggering of a tax liability and/or reporting obligation will depend on your tax residency, the nature of the income, and potentially the amount. We recommend you seek tax advice if you're unclear on the tax implications of a specific transaction.

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Wise may have to levy tax on its transfer fee according to local tax laws. For example Brazilian real (BRL) transactions where IOF (Imposto sobre Operações Financeiras — financial operations tax) may be imposed. Where transactional taxes apply, these will either be included in the fee payable or shown separately at the time of payment, and won’t impact the amount sent to the recipient.

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How does having a Wise Account impact my taxes?

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Wise is typically not a withholding agent in most jurisdictions, so if you believe you should be paying taxes on income you receive into your Wise Account, please consult a tax advisor. The exception to this is if you are a customer of Wise Europe and receive balance cashback on your account. Wise will withhold 30% of any cashback you earn.

If you hold your money in Assets with Wise, you may earn taxable and/or reportable income, which you will be responsible for paying taxes on in accordance with the local laws and regulators in your tax jurisdiction(s). We recommend that you consult a tax advisor if you need assistance calculating any proceeds or gains on your investment. Wise provides our Assets customers with a comprehensive proceeds statement associated with their trading activity with Wise but we cannot provide further tax advice

 

 

Thailand recently joined CRS and will have access to just about any financial account including Wise.  Good luck to those who believe this or that account cannot be traced or exposed.

[4MyEgo]

4 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Thailand recently joined CRS and will have access to just about any financial account including Wise.  Good luck to those who believe this or that account cannot be traced or exposed.

 

Thanks for the detailed information, however it isn't really relevant.

 

Thailand's tax code states any money remitted to Thailand, using a debit card isn't remitting money to Thailand, suffice to say, if you have a Thai bank account and send money to it via Wise, you are remitting money into Thailand and are subject to tax.

 

Using a debit card is not remitting money into Thailand, you are using funds from an overseas debit card, not a bank in Thailand.

 

I am 99.99% certain this is not illegal, it's a loop hole in the system, which I am looking to avoid paying tax legally.

 

So far I have found out that Wise charge 1.75% on any ATM amount above $350 per month, i.e. they allow you two withdrawals up to $350 per month for free, once you go over that, you pay the 1.75% fee.

 

The above said, you don't charge an ATM fee, albeit you could say the 1.75% fee over $350 per month is just that, and ATM charge, then you have the 200 baht ATM charge at the ATM machine for the Thai bank, up to 20,000 baht, so your combined charges would be about 402.80 baht per 20,000 baht withdrawal x 12 = 4,833.60.

 

Now if you require more than that which I would, that could be around 20,000 per annum, so now one has to weigh up what one would be looking at paying tax per annum for remitting money into Thailand.

 

I dare say, everybody gets a slice of your hard earned $'s, now you might say 20,000 baht a year isn't much, but to me, it's 20,000 baht more per year that I am contributing to Thailand and getting nothing in return.

[TheAppletons]

40 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Thailand's tax code states any money remitted to Thailand, using a debit card isn't remitting money to Thailand, suffice to say, if you have a Thai bank account and send money to it via Wise, you are remitting money into Thailand and are subject to tax.

 

  So, that's not true at all.  

 

40 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Using a debit card is not remitting money into Thailand, you are using funds from an overseas debit card, not a bank in Thailand.

 

I am 99.99% certain this is not illegal, it's a loop hole in the system, which I am looking to avoid paying tax legally.

 

  Again, not true.  It isn't a loophole, you simply don't understand the Thai Revenue Dept position on this.

 

  Good luck explaining how "importing" money from a debit card is different than "importing" money through a bank transfer from the same bank via WISE.  

 

  Will you get "caught" by trying to avoid taxation by using a debit card?  Very unlikely.  But let's not misrepresent it as a loophole,  It isn't.

  

[norbra]

There's a lot of information on the forums re reducing your tax liability.

When the news first broke about the closing of the loophole regarding remits,I ran my numbers against TH taxable income and I was looking at 60,000baht tax pa.

But keeping up with the many posts I was able to determine that as a single,aged pensioner I can claim 500,000 thb as allowable deductions so with out trying to find further loopholes my liabilty is now 3,000 thb pa.

With 5 months remaining in this tax year I could reduce my remits to a level where i am tax free.

Remember all earnings prior to 2024 you may have saved and remitted are not assessable.

 

Last month The Thai revenue department refused my application for a Tax Identifier Number because my income was in my home country currency and I had no income from employment in Thailand.

So I cannot file a tax return because I don't have a tax id number.

Go see your revenue office and get current information about your circumstsances

Edited August 6 by norbra

[Lacessit]

15 minutes ago, norbra said:

 

Last month The Thai revenue department refused my application for a Tax Identifier Number because my income was in my home country currency and I had no income from employment in Thailand.

So I cannot file a tax return because I don't have a tax id number.

Go see your revenue office and get current information about your circumstsances

The interesting part will come if you go to Immigration and they demand a TIN as part of the extension process.

 

You will then be able to use a very common Thai expression, "mai mee".

[advancebooking]

I think a lot of (honest) farang are worried about the new tax laws bc they were raised in a nanny state. They do not understand that TIT. The revenue dept's in your local province where you live have NO idea. They cannot even effectively tax their own citizens. 

 

Why on earth would you worry or abide by the new proposed laws. The rev dept will be relying on people to be honest and declare the said income. BUT if you dont do you think they can do anything about it....

[4MyEgo]

48 minutes ago, norbra said:

But keeping up with the many posts I was able to determine that as a single,aged pensioner I can claim 500,000 thb as allowable deductions so with out trying to find further loopholes my liabilty is now 3,000 thb pa.

 

Care to share how.

 

I see as I am over 65, I get 190,000 baht for self, wife 60,000 baht, and shopping tax allowance 50,000 baht, so there is up to 300,000 baht, I can get off with, that said, if I bring a mil in, I am going to pay over 100k baht in taxes, unless I can deduct more.

[frank83628]

5 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Care to share how.

 

I see as I am over 65, I get 190,000 baht for self, wife 60,000 baht, and shopping tax allowance 50,000 baht, so there is up to 300,000 baht, I can get off with, that said, if I bring a mil in, I am going to pay over 100k baht in taxes, unless I can deduct more.

send less than $20USD at a time and it wont flag in the system. you do that a few times to get your mill in under the radar. get a Thai bank acc & card for everyday use and no longer worry about it.

[Cameroni]

59 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  So, that's not true at all.  

 

 

  Again, not true.  It isn't a loophole, you simply don't understand the Thai Revenue Dept position on this.

 

  Good luck explaining how "importing" money from a debit card is different than "importing" money through a bank transfer from the same bank via WISE.  

 

  Will you get "caught" by trying to avoid taxation by using a debit card?  Very unlikely.  But let's not misrepresent it as a loophole,  It isn't.

  

 

Well, I saw the same, that using the debit card is not caught like  transferring money to a thai bank account. 

 

Besides, they would not know you used the debit card, how could they monitor it even if they wanted?

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, TheAppletons said:

Again, not true.  It isn't a loophole, you simply don't understand the Thai Revenue Dept position on this.

 

  Good luck explaining how "importing" money from a debit card is different than "importing" money through a bank transfer from the same bank via WISE.  

 

  Will you get "caught" by trying to avoid taxation by using a debit card?  Very unlikely.  But let's not misrepresent it as a loophole,  It isn't.

 

You could be right, I suppose it's all down to interpretation, hence the reason I have created this topic.

 

I might hear things I don't like to hear, i.e. what you are suggesting, however It sounds correct, others will also put their 2 bobs worth in, and we might find an alternative solution.

 

So far, I see I can claim around 300,000 baht as deductions before I start paying tax, that said, might have to look at transferring around 300,000 baht to wife's account and then see what else I can come up with, because the 1st 300,000 baht for me is tax free using deductions.

 

Perhaps the card can be used for say up to 400,000 baht for grocery shopping, petrol for the car etc over a year, providing I don't have to pay 5% that some retailers charge on debit cards, more research required.

 

 

Edited August 6 by 4MyEgo

[topt]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Care to share how.

 

I see as I am over 65, I get 190,000 baht for self, wife 60,000 baht, and shopping tax allowance 50,000 baht, so there is up to 300,000 baht, I can get off with, that said, if I bring a mil in, I am going to pay over 100k baht in taxes, unless I can deduct more.

Surely you have seen this?

Quote

TAX EXEMPTIONS DEDUCTIONS & ALLOWANCES (TEDA) 

 

89) The Thai tax system contains a series of Tax Exemptions, Deductions and Allowances (TEDA) that will help you reduce your tax bill and they are very generous. It is easily possible for the average expat foreign retiree to reduce their taxable income by 500,000 baht or more each year. For example, a retiree aged 65 years of age, married and living here full  time, supporting a Thai wife and receiving only pension income, is allowed the following TEDA, identified by the corresponding RD code:  

 

a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000 

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000 

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000 

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000 

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR)  

 

[rhodie]

Just send the money to your wife's account as a gift. No tax on gifts. 

[Lacessit]

I will be transferring pre-2024 savings, and letting my pension accumulate in an Australian account.

 

However, I do like the idea of using an Australian debit card to withdraw baht here, even though I will be charged fees at both ends.

 

Mainly because it will enable me to fly under the radar for longer.

[puck2]

I did not yet read any comment about DTA = Double Tax Agreement.

 

The Thai- German DTA (in German, English and Thai language) contains the following Article 18 (2):

(Thailand has to respect it !!! )  😉

 

Edited August 6 by puck2

[proton]

4 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

 

 

 

Thailand recently joined CRS and will have access to just about any financial account including Wise.  Good luck to those who believe this or that account cannot be traced or exposed.

 

But wise transfers do not show up as coming from abroad they look like internal transfers, at least that's what they told me

[Chivas]

My laptop is developing a complete terminal rash with these uber threads

 

 

[JackGats]

If you use your foreign credit cards 180 days per year outside Thailand, problem solved.

[shdmn]

It's all on their website.  Easy to find and explained in a way that a 5yo can understand.  Asking on there is the worst place you can possible get correct info.  This site is overrun by trolls and troll farms that just want to generate misinformation and chaos.

[freedomnow]

Such a can of spaghetti this and it WILL be annuled on 2 counts  -enforcement costs and expat flight.

 

It is after all the Land of NEW POLICY U-TURNS.

 

Thailand gets all those long-term juice satangs by the foreigner residing here vs elsewhere.

That should be enough of a direct fiscal injection to the place.

 

Also crypto tax haven would be cool.

Malaysia is maybe like this as it is.

 

You should all write to the PM on the cash flight aspect....

Edited August 6 by freedomnow

[CharlieKo]

2 hours ago, rhodie said:

Just send the money to your wife's account as a gift. No tax on gifts. 

 

 

only if you receive no benefit from that gift. If your wife passes any of those funds back to you in any shape or form. It is no longer a gift free of tax.

[4MyEgo]

10 hours ago, rhodie said:

Just send the money to your wife's account as a gift. No tax on gifts. 

 

Are gifts taxable in Thailand?

Amount of Taxation
The Gift Tax rate for the non-related receivers is 10% while it is 5% for descendants or ascendants. For those who are eligible to pay 10% gift tax are offered an opportunity to pay 5% gift tax rate. This is under certain circumstances only.

 

The above said, I think I have come up with what I believe to be a brainstorm idea for those with in-laws over 65 who don't have an income, plus my wife not having an income.

 

Actually the wife came up with the in-laws idea, so credit to her.

 

I gift 190,000 to my father-in-law & another 190,000 to my mother-in-law as they are allowed a 190,000 deductible, (accounts to be open with no ATM cards, so no annual fee for each account.

 

These will be new accounts which my wife of 2 decades will hold, I will then transfer 150,000 baht to my wife's account, i.e. also a gift and is under the threshold amount of 150,000.

 

The total gifted comes to 530,000 and I have 460,000 worth of deductibles, i.e. 990,000 in total, as I am over 65 years of age and can claim 150,000 for age, then 60,000 as a self personal allowance, plus 60,000 to wife as a personal allowance, so 990,000, that's as close to the mil as one can get which suites me, and is legal.

 

What this means is, I pay zero tax, oh and yes, as soon as the money hits the in-laws accounts, my wife can make an internet transfer from the bank (newly set up from the in-laws accounts) to her account, and we can make withdrawals when we fill it necessary via my wife's account.

 

I will keep the 400,000 baht required in my account for the annual marriage extension which has been in my account prior to 2024. 

 

More than one way to claw back to what I perceive as a stupid law as we already contribute to Thailand's economy.

 

If anyone foresees a problem with how I'm thinking, please feel free to burst my bubble.

 

 

Edited August 7 by 4MyEgo

[billd766]

11 hours ago, proton said:

 

But wise transfers do not show up as coming from abroad they look like internal transfers, at least that's what they told me

It depends on the bank.

 

KBank shows as a local bank transfer.

 

Bangkok bank shows as an international transfer, both in the bank book  and the statement.

[Presnock]

14 hours ago, Lacessit said:

The interesting part will come if you go to Immigration and they demand a TIN as part of the extension process.

 

You will then be able to use a very common Thai expression, "mai mee".

Right now, I believe that the govt does have people reading the comments  of folks on this forum and besides that Thai govt offices have probably already heard a lot of the same questions and responses of the tax agents locally too.  Therefore, this being TIT I can imagine that sometime in the near future anyone staying in Thailand will need to obtain a Thai Tax ID number.  Then when departing Thailand one will need a slip of paper stamped by the local RD that all necessary taxes have been paid prior to the IO stamping one out of the country or extending the stay of a possible Tax-resident.  TIT so that means anything could happen or nothing could happening - we as expats will be the last to know for sure.

[norbra]

14 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Care to share how.

 

I see as I am over 65, I get 190,000 baht for self, wife 60,000 baht, and shopping tax allowance 50,000 baht, so there is up to 300,000 baht, I can get off with, that said, if I bring a mil in, I am going to pay over 100k baht in taxes, unless I can deduct more.

Self care 60k

Aged allowance 190k

Pensioner 100k

Tax free threshold 150k

Edited August 7 by norbra

[Ralf001]

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

 

then 60,000 as a self personal allowance, plus 60,000 to wife as a personal allowance.

 

 

 

where does this Bt.60,000 number come from ?

[4MyEgo]

1 minute ago, Ralf001 said:

 

 

where does this Bt.60,000 number come from ?

 

Scroll up till you get to topt, 15 posts up

 

It's all there.

[GreasyFingers]

15 hours ago, norbra said:

Remember all earnings prior to 2024 you may have saved and remitted are not assessable

If the Revenue dept take a simplistic view (likely as it is the easy way) all remittances will be looked at as income and you will have to prove otherwise.

[GreasyFingers]

20 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Right now, I believe that the govt does have people reading the comments  of folks on this forum and besides that Thai govt offices have probably already heard a lot of the same questions and responses of the tax agents locally too.  Therefore, this being TIT I can imagine that sometime in the near future anyone staying in Thailand will need to obtain a Thai Tax ID number.  Then when departing Thailand one will need a slip of paper stamped by the local RD that all necessary taxes have been paid prior to the IO stamping one out of the country or extending the stay of a possible Tax-resident.  TIT so that means anything could happen or nothing could happening - we as expats will be the last to know for sure.

All true, if they are going to be serious.