Its Happening - Law to Tax Overseas Income Now in Progress

[TroubleandGrumpy]

26 minutes ago, Ricardo99 said:

The Philippines welcomes expats and retirees with open arms and wallets.

 

Better English speakers, better beer and no offshore income Tax.

That is our Plan B (1)  - rent a small unit there and visit Thailand Visa free for 179 days in total each year. If/when that becomes too much of a problem, we will return to Australia and visit Thailand for a month or two each year.  Plan B - 2 3 4 and 5 are Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. 

 

[newnative]

I hope they take just as long to enact this as they are taking for gay marriage.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

37 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

That could happen.  There are reports in some older threads where an IO has asked to see activity in savings accounts during extension appointments.

 

Immigration already has the catch-all item in the list of required documents "other documents requested by IO."  The IO could simply ask for last year's Thai tax return if passport shows 180+ days in country.

While IOs can ask for bank statements to show 'activity' they cannot ask for a Tax Return - under the current Immigration Laws - which of course they could change if they wanted to, but not quickly and not right now. 

[Andrew65]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That is our Plan B (1)  - rent a small unit there and visit Thailand Visa free for 179 days in total each year. If/when that becomes too much of a problem, we will return to Australia and visit Thailand for a month or two each year.  Plan B - 2 3 4 and 5 are Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. 

 

As a Pom living in Thailand I quite envied Ozzies, unlike us they didn't need to travel 1.000's of miles overseas for some decent weather😊 (For about half year anyway).

[WDSmart]

3 hours ago, Unamerican said:

What Social Security  payments would they be??  What are these?  I have never heard of them before. 

I'm sorry. I should have written "your home government's old-age pension payments." That's called "Social Security" in the USA, my home country.

[JimGant]

23 hours ago, jacob29 said:

The safe default assumption, is that it will be treated the same way the majority of countries in the world deal with it. You can explore what any other country taxing worldwide income does. Which is not always clear, but Thailand doesn't need to reinvent the wheel here.

No slam, dunk here for everyone to adopt -- but here is how a US Roth distribution is dealt with, if recipient lives in the UK:

 

Quote

However, the State of residence, under subparagraph (b), must exempt from tax any
amount of such pensions or other similar remuneration that would be exempt from tax in the State in which the pension scheme is established if the recipient were a resident of that State. Thus, for example, a distribution from a U.S. "Roth IRA" to a U.K. resident would be exempt from tax in the United Kingdom to the same extent the distribution would be exempt from tax in the United States if it were distributed to a U.S. resident.

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/131/Treaty-UK-Protocol-TE-7-22-2002.pdf

The OECD is rewriting their model tax treaty, to encompass language, like the above. And, Thailand is trying hard to become recognized, by petitioning to join the OECD. Thus, I'd certainly take advantage of the prevailing winds, and certainly omit any mention to Thai tax authorities of my Roth distribution -- or similar. And since there's no mention of Roth in my Thai tax return -- or no tax return -- what's the chance TRD calls me in to chat about this? And if they did, I certainly could present an excellent case for why I didn't declare it.

 

Anyway, for grey areas, give yourself the advantage, particularly if you have supporting info for your stance. Certainly, don't give the other side the advantage for a grey area....

[Mahseer]

6 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Plan B - 2 3 4 and 5 are Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. 

Suggest a bit of homework first to see which on these are not taking the same approach to tax as Thailand. 

[Bday Prang]

32 minutes ago, Presnock said:

just visit your local Thai revenue dept office and ask them - get it from a proper source - others have been told that the number will be the same as your pink card - I don't really know but people here are all experts but funny how their answers differ!

Not as funny as those who have wasted hours queuing up at their local tax office to get a TIN , only to be sent home empty handed.  There may well be some tax "experts" on this forum, but their expertise expired the day they left their home country. 

They should not be advising anybody to do anything  regarding taxation here,  one might as well take advice from a taxi driver 

[Burma Bill]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:34 PM, NoDisplayName said:

It's bad enough I have to pay tax on interstellar/multi-dimensional income to Uncle Sam for life, but Thailand wants a cut also?

 

I ran the numbers.........I manage my finances to remain at the zero tax limit in the USA, which will result in $10,000 paid annually to Thailand.  All capital gains are taxed as normal income with no offset for capital losses.

 

I don't think so.  How do you say 'hello' in Khmer?

 

Suosdei. 

[Presnock]

34 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

Is this because tax evasion or are they simply not required and which countries are you referring to? I'm a tax slave unless I relinquish my US citizenship so this idea of not paying taxes is totally alien to me.

Though many expats here may have been required to get a Thai tax ID and to file tax forms here (after becoming a Thai tax resident have not paid income taxes here previously as that was a"gray" area, they may be required now if they have assessable income to get a TIN and file taxes.  If American, you already should have been filing for US taxes so you might check the DTA to see if any of your income is currently non-taxable in Thailand.  If you do have assessable income in Thailand, you may have to pay some Thai tax if it is more than that taken out by the US....i.e. US tax rate is 10% and Thai tax rate on the amount is 15% then Thailand could charge you for 5% of that amount.  There are still some countries (for example - the Philippines does not charge retirees on their income/pensions while other SEA countries are doing the same as Thailand for the future.  Very complicated and at this moment while one might think about it, we wait for the final forms to come out and the finale judgement of the Revenue Department for this year only on remittances.  This new scheme may never come to fruition especially in the short term.

[TimBKK]

This is for USA people.

 

I rely exclusively on savings/dividends/capital gains and am not yet eligible to use a pension/social security/IRA.  If implemented, the worldwide tax scheme would be a significant additional expense.  I keep my money in the U.S. and send only what is needed here.

 

So I asked Perplexity AI:

 

How would Thailand have access to my USA financial data if the USA does not participate in the CRS?

 

Answer

Thailand would not have direct access to your U.S. financial data since the U.S. does not participate in the Common Reporting Standard (CRS). However, there are a few ways Thailand could potentially obtain information about your U.S. assets.

 

Reporting Requirements for U.S. Citizens:

 

As a U.S. citizen, you have certain reporting obligations to the U.S. government, regardless of where you live. This includes:

 

1. Foreign Bank Account Report (FBAR): If the total balance of your foreign bank accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the year, you must report them to the U.S. Treasury Department.
2. Form 8938: If you have specified foreign financial assets that exceed certain thresholds (e.g., $200,000 on the last day of the tax year or $300,000 at any time during the tax year), you must report them on Form 8938 filed with your U.S. tax return.

 

While the U.S. does not share this information with Thailand directly, the IRS could potentially share it with Thai authorities under certain circumstances, such as a tax treaty or agreement.

 

🤣Voluntary Disclosure of Information🤣

 

You may voluntarily disclose information about your U.S. financial accounts to Thai authorities if required for tax purposes in Thailand. However, you are not obligated to do so unless Thai law specifically requires it.

 

Requests for Information:

 

Thai authorities could request information about your U.S. financial accounts from you directly or from U.S. financial institutions under certain circumstances, such as a tax investigation or treaty request. However, the U.S. may not always honor such requests, especially if they are overly broad or lack sufficient justification.

 

In summary, while Thailand does not have automatic access to your U.S. financial data due to the U.S. not participating in CRS, there are still some ways Thai authorities could potentially obtain information about your U.S. assets. It's important to consult with a tax professional to ensure you are meeting your reporting obligations in both countries.

 

👉 My take?  Don’t ask, don’t tell.  Still undecided about filing a tax return but if push comes to shove, I will.

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, malt25 said:

What exactly in my post is confusing ?

because many of those other countries have not been collecting taxes from their homies nor have their homies advised them that they are not paying taxes anywhere else either - duh, that is why 138 countries signed the OECD agreement plus CRS FATCA US tax collectors.

[jwest10]

29 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Form 90:  Personal Income Tax Return
for taxpayer with income not only from employment

 

Form 91:  Personal Income Tax Return
for taxpayer with only income from employment

 

I got a TIN in Bangkok years ago in order to refund interest and dividend withholding.

 

Now that I have a pink ID, I use that number for online filing.

Yes, seen the old forms again and Form 91 income from employment only but the exemptions are on this and obviously Form 90 needs to be completed.
The heading on Form 91 does say from Employment  only and very confusing.
Thanks so much

[Old Croc]

29 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

I expect that Orange Man would feature in this vid!?

No, it's about the super-rich not wannabes

 

[Presnock]

12 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Not as funny as those who have wasted hours queuing up at their local tax office to get a TIN , only to be sent home empty handed.  There may well be some tax "experts" on this forum, but their expertise expired the day they left their home country. 

They should not be advising anybody to do anything  regarding taxation here,  one might as well take advice from a taxi driver 

AGREE wholeheartedly!  Myself, I am waiting for the Thai revenue Dept to amend their tax laws that say I even though I don't have assessable income that I must get a Tax ID number and file for taxes even though I don't have any assessable income.  Until then, I will ignore the revenue dept office as I await their latest scheme announcement...possibly when the "NEW" tax forms come out in Nov-Dec  maybe.

[wensiensheng]

On 9/7/2024 at 4:26 PM, CallumWK said:

Time to empty my Thai bank accounts

That will make absolutely no difference if you stay more than 180 days in Thailand. Any income earned, in any bank account in the world, will be taxed in Thailand under these proposals

[Andrew65]

8 minutes ago, Presnock said:

because many of those other countries have not been collecting taxes from their homies nor have their homies advised them that they are not paying taxes anywhere else either - duh, that is why 138 countries signed the OECD agreement plus CRS FATCA US tax collectors.

I have an old friend who has lived in Thailand for 20 years, and said that he hadn't paid taxes previously. He used to call it "Walking between the raindrops".😊

[hotandsticky]

1 minute ago, Andrew65 said:

I have an old friend who has lived in Thailand for 20 years, and said that he hadn't paid taxes previously. He used to call it "Walking between the raindrops".😊

 

 

I bet he still gets wet sometimes.........

[wensiensheng]

On 9/7/2024 at 5:51 PM, Kinnock said:

Thailand can't tax its own people, so they want to tax foreigners.

 

This tax would apply to all tax residents of Thailand, irrespective of nationality.

[HawaiianBrian]

Paying taxes would require some government/employer to report those earnings to The Thailand Revenue office, otherwise, that burden is left to the tax payer. Who, I am sure being a solid citizen will take it upon themselves to report that income to the Thai Gummint. Hiring a tax accountant will also increase the expenses and costs to report it accurately and correctly. sounds like a solid plan.

 

[thecyclist]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:34 PM, NoDisplayName said:

It's bad enough I have to pay tax on interstellar/multi-dimensional income to Uncle Sam for life, but Thailand wants a cut also?

 

I ran the numbers.........I manage my finances to remain at the zero tax limit in the USA, which will result in $10,000 paid annually to Thailand.  All capital gains are taxed as normal income with no offset for capital losses.

 

I don't think so.  How do you say 'hello' in Khmer?

Sook sabai. 

Or in Vietnamese: Xin chào 

[Andrew65]

1 minute ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

I bet he still gets wet sometimes.........

He's the proud owner of a golfing umbrella.😁

Saw him in March, but he didn't mention anything about this stuff.

[Bday Prang]

6 minutes ago, Presnock said:

AGREE wholeheartedly!  Myself, I am waiting for the Thai revenue Dept to amend their tax laws that say I even though I don't have assessable income that I must get a Tax ID number and file for taxes even though I don't have any assessable income.  Until then, I will ignore the revenue dept office as I await their latest scheme announcement...possibly when the "NEW" tax forms come out in Nov-Dec  maybe.

I'm glad somebody thinks the same way as me,  I just noticed that this thread has now been designated as a  "must read"   personally I think nothing could be further from the truth.      Unless one considers scaremongering clickbait essential reading matter.  All these tax threads remind me of the various covid threads but without the censorship,  

[thecyclist]

What about people who have no  income back home, but are just transferring their savings from home country to Thailand?

How are they going to differentiate between income and "just having money "?

I assume they won't. 

[wensiensheng]

On 9/7/2024 at 10:18 PM, tomacht8 said:

Thailand will lose fat there. Well-off pensioners and foreigners with wealth will pay attention to how long they stay in Thailand in the future. Under 180 days and they will have no longer any problems. There are also other beautiful, sunny countries where they can spend there money. It is incomprehensible, since Thailand in particular wants to be attractive for this well off groups. Probably no one in the RD has calculated how high the consumption tax and capital import loss will be. A week ago, Thailand announced that it wanted to become the new financial hub in SEA in the future. LOL. Greedy amateurs.

I am comfortably off. After the announcement that all remitted income would be taxed was made, I decided to use this year as a test case on whether I could enjoyably spend 6 months outside Thailand. 
 

I am up to 5 months now and have one final month to go, which I will spend in Cambodia. Next year I will be all set to spend 6 months outside Thailand having worked out which destinations will work for me the best and at which times of year.

 

I have already paid many millions of tax in Thailand over the years by virtue of indirect taxation (GST, tax on cars, tax on property trades etc) and I’m not going to pay direct taxation on worldwide income and will pay far less in indirect taxation in future.

 

I guess in my particular case the Revenue sept will be collecting less tax

[Bday Prang]

2 minutes ago, thecyclist said:

What about people who have no  income back home, but are just transferring their savings from home country to Thailand?

How are they going to differentiate between income and "just having money "?

I assume they won't. 

Best to assume nothing, especially after reading threads like this.   

[Lopburikid]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:16 PM, Pouatchee said:

happy days... not

so now the nightmare begins

 

 

so now they will have access to our home records... big brother... reallyyyy. 

 

double taxation? these matters really need to be cleared up and imho double taxation is just plain wrong... hope tere will be provisions blocking this.

 

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!!!

The Thai revenue website says B150,000 un-taxable and 190,000 for over 56 is un-taxable income. Thai tax office say anything over 120,000 is taxable income. Again lying, cheating and stealing.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

31 minutes ago, Mahseer said:

Suggest a bit of homework first to see which on these are not taking the same approach to tax as Thailand. 

Yes indeed and done for 3.  Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia do not tax the remittances of retired Expats brought into their country - as far as my read is concerned.  But that is not to say that they are not looking to change that - but when all three countries complied with the CRS and OECD tax changes, they all excluded the incomes/money of retired expats.  It took me a long time to find that - and it will do again - and perhaps I should have kept the exact location of the relevant sections in their tax codes and Govt statements, but I didn't. I figured (wrongly) Thailand would not go full monty and target worldwide income - my bad.  But I still think they wont fully implement this new tax regime - their tax laws and systems and methods are totally backward - and I think it will be too hard with all the appeals and complaints - I will stay away and watch what happens for a while.   

[Presnock]

4 minutes ago, thecyclist said:

What about people who have no  income back home, but are just transferring their savings from home country to Thailand?

How are they going to differentiate between income and "just having money "?

I assume they won't. 

You may need at some point to meet with the Thai Revenue Dept to explain to them that you are living off of your savings - will have to prove that the savings acct is pre-2024.  Just like me, at some point I am sure they will want me to prove my money is only a US govt Pension but can easily prove that so protected by the DTA.

[Lopburikid]

You know the bill hasn't been passed as yet, they say the earliest it may be passed is January 2025/