Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[ukrules]

47 minutes ago, Presnock said:

where is the change to the tax law on obtaining a Thai Tax Number - law I read says within 60 days of having ASSESSABLE income remitted into Thailand - some of us have not and will not have assessable income remitted into Thailand ever.  Same as having to have to Thai ID to obtain the Taxation Number.  Where did this information come from?  Please advise via this forum.  thanks in advance for the info.

 

What if you have assessable income remitted into some bank account in February during your winter vacation but are not a tax resident and never will be - for example, are any of us really tax residents in any given year before June 27 (June 28 this year due to leap year) assuming people remain in Thailand between Jan 1 and June 27 and hit 180 days during the year ?

 

We know they won't tax non residents on non Thai earnings so this 60 day rule makes little sense - I've never heard of it before. Not saying you're wrong but I would like to hear more on this rule.

 

[Presnock]

10 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

What if you have assessable income remitted into some bank account in February during your winter vacation but are not a tax resident and never will be - for example, are any of us really tax residents in any given year before June 27 (June 28 this year due to leap year) assuming people remain in Thailand between Jan 1 and June 27 and hit 180 days during the year ?

 

We know they won't tax non residents on non Thai earnings so this 60 day rule makes little sense - I've never heard of it before. Not saying you're wrong but I would like to hear more on this rule.

 

 

15 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

What if you have assessable income remitted into some bank account in February during your winter vacation but are not a tax resident and never will be - for example, are any of us really tax residents in any given year before June 27 (June 28 this year due to leap year) assuming people remain in Thailand between Jan 1 and June 27 and hit 180 days during the year ?

 

We know they won't tax non residents on non Thai earnings so this 60 day rule makes little sense - I've never heard of it before. Not saying you're wrong but I would like to hear more on this rule.

 

sorry you don'tknow how to look for information readily available.  I don't link.  You can find this particular LAW at the Revenue Dept  Tax Knowledge and Code/Tax info  

just google:    rd.go.th/english/21987.html         that should do it....good luck info is easy enough to find on this issue.

 then read under tax identification rule #1 - states exactly that - within 60 days...

[Presnock]

tax laws:  Thai tax id requirements can be found at rd.go.th.english/21987.htmi.....clearly spells out in rule #1 - 60 days after remitting assessable funds into Thailand.. good luck

[ukrules]

4 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 

sorry you don'tknow how to look for information readily available.  I don't link.

I said I had never heard of it before - which is accurate.

I don't like your tone - so <deleted> right off. I'll do my research when I'm ready.

[Presnock]

2 minutes ago, ukrules said:

I said I had never heard of it before - which is accurate.

I don't like your tone - so <deleted> right off. I'll do my research when I'm ready.

sorry you don't like the tone but, we have advised people of this law about obtaining a thai tax id for 6 months.  If you doubted our input then you could have checked a long time ago.  Seems we have to repeat over and over for folks who read this forum.  I didn't mean to upset you nor belittle you but, you said you have never heard of this before but you are an "advanced member"  so I figured you read the forum messages regularly.

[Presnock]

On 5/19/2024 at 4:37 PM, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Will banks start to deduct tax at source on every foreigners bank account even if the foreigner does not stay more then 180 days ?

Unless there is some kind of change, I find it difficult for banks to deduct any taxes until one is definitely declared as a Tax Resident.  Prior to the 180 day (this year 27 June), if one had been in country the entire 180 days, year he would be a tax resident but unless the banks know exactly how many days one has been here during the year, they could not know one is a tax resident unless immigration and the revenue department start seeing ALL the ins and outs of expats - seems to be a job much larger than either could handle easily so in my opinion, banks won't be involved in the tax issue other than through the OECD, CRS, FACTA exchanges.  I don't know how any of these interact with the Thais - through the Revenue Department, banks or what?  Anyone have a clue? not me so I just don't think they could handle it anytime soon.  I do hope all excape being caught up in this program needlessly.

[ukrules]

12 minutes ago, Presnock said:

sorry you don't like the tone but, we have advised people of this law about obtaining a thai tax id for 6 months.  If you doubted our input then you could have checked a long time ago.  Seems we have to repeat over and over for folks who read this forum.  I didn't mean to upset you nor belittle you but, you said you have never heard of this before but you are an "advanced member"  so I figured you read the forum messages regularly.

 

Are you sure you're correct about 60 day rule - isn't it 180 + 60 days and applies to people who will become actual tax residents only? Ie - those who will be staying for more than 180 days?

Because no remittance is assessable if you're not here for 180 days or more - is it?

Advanced member just means I made a a few posts each day for the last 15 years or so, nothing more.

 

Edit: I understand now.

This part is key "A person liable to personal income tax" - which excludes everyone who isn't resident for the year (180 days) as they are not liable for personal income tax unless it's locally sourced income.

 

Source - the correct link is here : https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html

Edited July 4 by ukrules

[stat]

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

In the UK you have to calculate your own Capital Gains as your Broker doesn't do it for you, fortunately for me (as a long tern Expat) it's not reportable, if I had to report it I wouldn't know where to start working out the average value* for one of my holdings as:-

1. I've never gone to zero shares on it so some of the shares were acquired >35 years ago.
2. Some of the shares came from Profit Sharing Awards (I used to worked for the company) with bonus shares added for keeping them > 7 years, Scrip Dividends, Exec Share Options, Stock Splits etc...
3. I have occasional sold & repurchased the stock within 30 days when there's been a dip & UK has a 30 day rule which means I would have to revalue the shares as at the price of the shares I sold..

For Dividends it's easy to work out how many shares you had at a date & multiply it by the dividend per share, and how much tax credit is available (IIRC it's 0% on the 1st £1,000 & then 8.75% on everything over this) but (again, as an Expat) "Disregarded Income" rules can come into Play & I'm not familiar with calculating this so rely on my Accountant to calculate it when they file my return (usually 1st week in July, did 2023/24's return 2 Days ago).

 

*Appreciate the US allows you to use different models for which shares you've sold but in the UK we have to use "Average Value" (AKA  "Section 104 holding")

 

 

Edit: I guess the safest way would be to not remit income until after you've got your home country Tax Report (Which for me means remitting most of this year's income in the 2nd half of next year).

 

 

Your broker cannot calculate cap gains for you with the sole exception of you being a tax resident in the SAME country as your broker. Every country has different regulations on how to calculate your cap gains, dividends etc.

 

How should your OK broker know that you cannot offset any losses with TRD for example...

[stat]

3 hours ago, topt said:

HL and II certainly do and I would have thought all the bigger broker companies provide that information at year end just as the banks do. Does your not?

 

But yes it could become painful with the tax year discrepancy - UK vs Thailand.

Brokers provide some information but you have to tailor it to your jurisdiction, Mike Teavee provided some examples of transactions where calculation can become very tricky or next to impossibe as you can have contradicting rules and loads of grey areas+ no longer any documentation.

[Mike Lister]

Any UK accountant can easily calculate the capital gains to include TRD rules. Anyone tax resident in Thailand but still needing to file a UK return, must either use specially acquired software to file, or use a UK tax accountant anyway. The calculation is not an issue.

[NoDisplayName]

4 hours ago, cooked said:

AS FAR as I know: expats in Thailand will, from end of September be required to obtain their taxation number (ITN). For this you will need a Thai ID, an easy process if you don't have one but have a Tabien Ban. Taxable persons have until end of March next year to obtain this number (theoretically, not doing so makes you liable to a fine). Whether your visa extension application will be affected by proof of payment or non-payment I rather doubt. 

I asked at our local immigration a month ago and the answer, essentially, was: "Why worry about something that hasn't happened yet?". Plain Text: Nobody knows, wait and see. 

 

If you have a Thai ID, that IS your TIN.

 

 

 

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

If you have a Thai ID, that IS your TIN.

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

If you have a Thai ID, that IS your TIN.

 

 

 

they will have to amend the Thai revenue Dept's rule #1 on obtaining a taX id NUMBER  as the current rule says one must remit/have assessable income and then within 60 days obtain a tax id number.  I will never have assessable remittances so should never have to obtain a tax id number unless they change those rules too.

[NoDisplayName]

3 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 

they will have to amend the Thai revenue Dept's rule #1 on obtaining a taX id NUMBER  as the current rule says one must remit/have assessable income and then within 60 days obtain a tax id number.  I will never have assessable remittances so should never have to obtain a tax id number unless they change those rules too.

 

Not sure of your point.

 

You have a pink ID card?  That's your tax number.

 

You must go through the local tax office (or call 1161) to have it registered in the system for e-filing, but you do not need to request a separate TIN.

 

No pink ID card?  Visit local office to request a TIN, if needed.

[topt]

54 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Anyone tax resident in Thailand but still needing to file a UK return, must either use specially acquired software to file, or use a UK tax accountant anyway.

Not true Mike.

Up to this year I was sending paper returns. This year finally capitulated and bought software online but only because the cost was not much more than the postage.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, topt said:

Not true Mike.

Up to this year I was sending paper returns. This year finally capitulated and bought software online but only because the cost was not much more than the postage.

Wow, a paper tax return, mailed in no less, how quaint.  :)))

 

Yes OK, fair enough, there's always exceptions.  

 

I kinda like having my tax accountant person in the UK, at 150 quid (no VAT) she's great value and a nice point of reference (and barrier) between me and HMRC. 

[dinga]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You have a pink ID card?  That's your tax number.

 

You must go through the local tax office (or call 1161) to have it registered in the system for e-filing, but you do not need to request a separate TIN.

 

No pink ID card?  Visit local office to request a TIN, if needed.

Not so in my case  -  I have a TIN and a Pink Card with very different numbers.  The Number on the Pink Card being my Permanent Resident Registration.  

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Not sure of your point.

 

You have a pink ID card?  That's your tax number.

 

You must go through the local tax office (or call 1161) to have it registered in the system for e-filing, but you do not need to request a separate TIN.

 

No pink ID card?  Visit local office to request a TIN, if needed.

No pink ID card and unless things change including the Revenue Department rules on getting a Tax ID number, I don't plan on getting one.

[NoDisplayName]

8 hours ago, dinga said:

Not so in my case  -  I have a TIN and a Pink Card with very different numbers.  The Number on the Pink Card being my Permanent Resident Registration.  

 

Similar here, until last week.  I got my TIN about 6 years ago registered in Bangkok and filed a couple times for refund of interest/dividends tax paid.  Got my pink ID two years ago after moving out of Bangkok.

 

Preparing for upcoming tax rule changes, wanted to have the TIN card updated with correct address.  Office lady in the district office explained the 13-digit TIN is a substitute provided to those who don't have a 13-digit PIN from a national ID card, that I use my pink ID PIN when filing tax, not the substitute TIN.

 

Office lady called the provincial tax office to have my pink ID PIN registered in the tax system for e-filing, which at the same time invalidated my TIN which was no longer needed.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

15 hours ago, cooked said:

AS FAR as I know: expats in Thailand will, from end of September be required to obtain their taxation number (ITN). For this you will need a Thai ID, an easy process if you don't have one but have a Tabien Ban. Taxable persons have until end of March next year to obtain this number (theoretically, not doing so makes you liable to a fine). Whether your visa extension application will be affected by proof of payment or non-payment I rather doubt. 

I asked at our local immigration a month ago and the answer, essentially, was: "Why worry about something that hasn't happened yet?". Plain Text: Nobody knows, wait and see. 

Most of this post is incorrect! There is no general requirement to obtain a TIN by September, other than for those who have been tax resident for the entire year, up to that point, AND who have assessable income, in excess of threshold.

 

TINs must be acquired within 60 days of becoming tax resident, AND exceeding the assessable income threshold. 

 

Taxes must be filed, after 1 January and BEFORE 31 March each year.

 

Having a Tabien Bahn does not replace the need to acquire a TIN.

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Most of this post is incorrect! There is no general requirement to obtain a TIN by September, other than for those who have been tax resident for the entire year, up to that point, AND who have assessable income, in excess of threshold.

When you say "other than for those who have been tax resident for the entire year" don't you mean over 180 days in a calendar year?  If so, expats who haven't left Thailand since the

1st Jan 2024 became residents of Thailand for taxation purposes late June 2024, therefore, have 60 days to apply for a TIN, which gives them until September 2024. 

 

16 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

TINs must be acquired within 60 days of becoming tax resident, AND exceeding the assessable income threshold. 

Aren't you basically agreeing with the member? 

 

Surely, most expats are residing in Thailand on amounts of money that are over the threshold, with many on what is "assessable" income?  As mentioned, doesn't that mean a big percentage of expats will need a TIN by September 2024? 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

When you say "other than for those who have been tax resident for the entire year" don't you mean over 180 days in a calendar year?  If so, expats who haven't left Thailand since the

1st Jan 2024 became residents of Thailand for taxation purposes late June 2024, therefore, have 60 days to apply for a TIN, which gives them until September 2024. 

 

Aren't you basically agreeing with the member? 

 

Surely, most expats are residing in Thailand on amounts of money that are over the threshold, with many on what is "assessable" income?  As mentioned, doesn't that mean a big percentage of expats will need a TIN by September 2024? 

"There is no general requirement to obtain a TIN by September", as in, everyone must obtain one.

[KhunHeineken]

On 7/4/2024 at 5:39 AM, cooked said:

Whether your visa extension application will be affected by proof of payment or non-payment I rather doubt. 

Any ideas on how the authorities may enforce compliance? 

[KhunHeineken]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

"There is no general requirement to obtain a TIN by September", as in, everyone must obtain one.

Yes, I agree, but surely most expats are residing in Thailand on assessable income that is over the threshold, thus, will require a TIN for early 2025. 

[Mike Lister]

10 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes, I agree, but surely most expats are residing in Thailand on assessable income that is over the threshold, thus, will require a TIN for early 2025. 

Not necessarily, many have legacy income that is now invested or banked from years ago. I have enough money in country to keep me going for at least five years, even without touching income.

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Not necessarily, many have legacy income that is now invested or banked from years ago. I have enough money in country to keep me going for at least five years, even without touching income.

I haven't looked too much into bank interest earned, that's because I don't invest in Thailand, at all. 

 

Like most countries, I gather Thailand also deems interest to be an income.  I know Thai banks pay minimal interest, but by the mere fact that you are "earning" it, would that not mean you also require a TIN, even if the interest earned is under the threshold?   

[cooked]

On 7/4/2024 at 1:13 PM, topt said:

Absolute rubbish..........

End of September - please show a link........(there isn't one)

Thai ID for a Thai Tin - no you don't need.

Yeah, that's right, I invented it. Do some research.

[cooked]

On 7/5/2024 at 4:26 AM, Mike Lister said:

Most of this post is incorrect! There is no general requirement to obtain a TIN by September, other than for those who have been tax resident for the entire year, up to that point, AND who have assessable income, in excess of threshold.

 

TINs must be acquired within 60 days of becoming tax resident, AND exceeding the assessable income threshold. 

 

Taxes must be filed, after 1 January and BEFORE 31 March each year.

 

Having a Tabien Bahn does not replace the need to acquire a TIN.

I didn't say you need a Tabien Ban to obtain a TIN. I said you need to have a Thai ID number and if you haven't got a Tabien Ban beforehand, you won't get one. I didn't say that you need a TIN by end of September. The process of getting a TIN will start then, you have until end of March to complete the process.

[topt]

7 minutes ago, cooked said:

I didn't say you need a Tabien Ban to obtain a TIN. I said you need to have a Thai ID number and if you haven't got a Tabien Ban beforehand, you won't get one.

Still wrong.

I don't have a Thai ID or a Tabien Baan but I do have a Thai TIN.

I guess this may be true for others as well. The RD want anyone staying over 179 days residence with assessable income to file so the requirements you state would make that impossible for many. 

Where is your "knowledge" on this coming from?

[topt]

36 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I haven't looked too much into bank interest earned, that's because I don't invest in Thailand, at all. 

 

Like most countries, I gather Thailand also deems interest to be an income.  I know Thai banks pay minimal interest, but by the mere fact that you are "earning" it, would that not mean you also require a TIN, even if the interest earned is under the threshold?   

As Mike said in one of his replies if the assessable income is under the threshold then no. Since interest rates are so low here you would need to have a lot on deposit and generally interest is only paid out on bank deposits twice a year or once if a fixed account.

 

Traditionally withholding taxes at 15% are applied on any interest payments unless you give the Thai bank a TIN.

[KhunHeineken]

19 minutes ago, topt said:

As Mike said in one of his replies if the assessable income is under the threshold then no. Since interest rates are so low here you would need to have a lot on deposit and generally interest is only paid out on bank deposits twice a year or once if a fixed account.

 

Traditionally withholding taxes at 15% are applied on any interest payments unless you give the Thai bank a TIN.

Yes, these were my thought. 

 

One would need a considerable amount of money to earn interest over the threshold, so that would mean withdrawing the capital to maintain one's lifestyle.

 

This would bide some time, in Mike's case, around 5 years, but probably less for many others.

 

Ultimately, you reach a point in time where you are faced with the same situation that many will be facing early 2025.