FAA’s Diversity Policies Under Fire After Deadly Air Collision

[impulse]

6 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

@proton, After reading your response above, I saw a book on DEI that I thought you might like...

 

There it is.  I want the most qualified candidates flying the plane and running ATC desks, regardless of race.  (As required by the US Constitution).   And that makes me a racist.

 

[proton]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

There it is.  I want the most qualified candidates flying the plane and running ATC desks, regardless of race.  (As required by the US Constitution).   And that makes me a racist.

 

 

Or maybe a corpse when the DEI appointee is flying a plane, in the control tower or turns up to put a fire out and wets herself.

[impulse]

7 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Good point. Better late than never for a thorough review of hiring policy. Surely the fundamental criteria for selecting somebody for work as important as flight traffic control must be to appoint the person best qualified to do the job.

 

It's a shame that it took a tragedy(s) (and a change in the Oval Office) for all the dirt to come out.  And come out, it is.  All over the right wing press.  MSM?  Still hiding it.  That's why their credibility, the public's trust, and their stock price is in the tank.

 

[Woke to Sounds]

10 hours ago, Social Media said:

“You want to hire the best and the brightest for this kind of job because it is a very stressful job and it can take a toll on you, age you prematurely,” he told The Telegraph. “You want to make sure that the people that are doing it are the best.”  

 

Wait a minute... this reeks of nonsense... is he parroting what Mr Trump said?

 

Or is The Telegraph full of A.I. bullship?

 

Why is he posing for a photo for The Telegraph?

 

President Trump said those exact words a day (or so) ago: "You want to hire the best and the brightest..."

 

So is this kid just a parrot or is this just more A.I. nonsense designed to shape opinion?

[mikebike]

🤣 hilarious responses.

 

The biggest DEI hires in civil aviation are former military pilots. Yes, hiring veterans falls directly under DEI.

 

It's like most of you barf out DEI without having a clue about it 😔

[WDSmart]

6 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

There it is.  I want the most qualified candidates flying the plane and running ATC desks, regardless of race.  (As required by the US Constitution).   And that makes me a racist.

 

I think we differ in two areas on this.
One is that I want only QUALIFIED candidates employed, not necessarily the MOST QUALIFIED. The final decision considers other things, such as years of experience, salary expectations, and, yes, DEI.
The second is that it makes me a non-racist and a proponent of DEI. 

[alanrchase]

38 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I'd suggest you look at the article in VigilantNews entitled Did DEI Hiring Policies Contribute to the Reagan Airport Midair Collision? 

 

Don't even bother to look at their analysis of the facts.  Just the facts...  They passed over thousands of tested, qualified ATC candidates in favor of DEI.  Or was it DIE?

 

But there aren't any relevant facts in the article.

[candide]

2 hours ago, novacova said:

Yet a 1st grade graduate can understand that the FAA is still suffering from Biden’s administration’s failure 

Yet a first grade graduate can understand d it was a parody of usual MAGA statements! 😆

[candide]

Could it be simply that these people were not good enough to succesfully pass the exams and tests? 🙂

[candide]

3 hours ago, novacova said:

Yet a 1st grade graduate can understand that the FAA is still suffering from Biden’s administration’s failure 

Suuuure! Look on the graph how the number of controllers decreased under Trump (after Obama), and started to increase under Biden

 

https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/FAA Controller Staffing and Training at Critical Facilities Final Report-06-21-23.pdf

 

The FAA also exceeded targets in 2023/2024 and recruited 1800.

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-hits-air-traffic-controller-hiring-goal

 

But don't let facts get in the way of a good MAGA story! 😆

 

[Watawattana]

7 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Is that what normally happens?

Please tells us from your experience in that job.

Do you have any experience in or around that job?

I can't answer for thaibeachlovers.  But I have over 30 years of direct experience in this stuff and can answer.  Safety has to be first, last and at every point in between.  It absolutely is normal practice to reduce the volume of traffic to maintain a safe level of service.  I got some examples later of this being done well, and being done very, very badly.

 

Keeping it basic, the safest air traffic service is one that has zero flights.  Every air traffic movement added after that increases risk.  Risks are mitigated through the use of systems, procedures and people.  There comes a time when these 3 mitigations are insufficient.  That is usually determined through modelling and the controller training, testing and regulatory monitoring process.  

 

This process is often held offline.  On the training system scenarios can get designed to effectively test the controller towards breaking point (making mistakes, not mental breakdown), often well beyond the allowable sector capacity.  So, when they pass their regulatory assessment 'live', they are at a comfortable and competent level, with capacity to keep things safe and to handle any situation that goes wrong (emergencies etc.).  The training process 'should' weed out any controller not up to the job long before they talk to actual aircraft, and any live training should then further weed out anyone who is unable to jump from the training to the 'live' environment. This is why I believe the noise about DEI hires is bovine 💩.  If DEI hires were allowed to control despite not being good enough then that should be a MASSIVE national scandal.  No, a worldwide scandal.

 

I cannot say what happened in the tower here, but the FAA acknowledged that staffing levels at the time were “not normal for the time of day and the volume of traffic.”  I'm sure this will be a focus in the investigation, as will be the height of the helicopter, or why there doesn't appear to be a system available that gave the controller a very obvious and urgent warning of dangerous proximity.  And many other things of course.  

 

Especially WHY traffic was not reduced to maintain a safe level of service, for example any arrogance that led the controller to think he'll  be okay, any pressure on the controller to keep going so as not to upset the flying public or to keep the ATC revenue stream at full throttle or to break service level records.

 

But, please note.  This exact thing HAS HAPPENED BEFORE. Überlingen.

https://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~johnson/Eurocontrol/Ueberlingen/Ueberlingen_Final_Report.PDF

 

The controller was overloaded and it led to a mid-air crash.  The controller got murdered by the parent of a child who died in that crash.  But actually, the "why" the controller was overloaded was the key to this overload.  The FAA will be very well aware of what happened over Überlingen, should have learnt those lessons and should have NEVER allowed a single controller to manage the workload that led to the crash over the Potomac.

 

Going back to DEI.  It might be that there was not enough air traffic controllers or the systems are not up to the most modern standards, I don't know.  These 2 things cost money.  Money doesn't grow on trees; the FAA has a budget.  But if that budget is being spent on things that don't matter, e.g. DEI, then it isn't being spent on front line controllers, the best systems available and the training and procedures to make sure the whole ATC system purrs perfectly.  I think the timing of Trump's comments was appalling, but the essence of what he was getting at has some potential to being a contributing factor in this.

 

Now, back to the reduction the volume of traffic to maintain a safe level of service.  This is extremely common in around the world, and it does happen in the USA, be it weather or peaks in traffic volume.  But the most relevant item for my response is traffic reduction due to under-staffing.  It has happened a lot.  Recently at London's Gatwick Airport, the world's busiest single runway airport.

https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/air-traffic-controller-staff-shortages-disrupt-gatwick-flights

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/gatwick-flight-cancellations-easyjet-air-traffic-control-b2609196.html

 

The key quote from The Independent is "According to NATS, the air-traffic control provider that runs the tower, temporary air traffic restrictions are currently in place at the airport “in order to maintain safety”."

 

NATS got a massive amount of 💩 for this but they put safety first, last and at every point in between.  And nobody died.  The main reason for NATS struggling on this was COVID, and that they couldn't train the required supply of new controllers to replace the normal attrition of older controllers (deaths and retirements).

 

Hope this helps.

[candide]

1 hour ago, candide said:

Suuuure! Look on the graph how the number of controllers decreased under Trump (after Obama), and started to increase under Biden

 

https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/FAA Controller Staffing and Training at Critical Facilities Final Report-06-21-23.pdf

 

The FAA also exceeded targets in 2023/2024 and recruited 1800.

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-hits-air-traffic-controller-hiring-goal

 

But don't let facts get in the way of a good MAGA story! 😆

 

From the OIG report, it is obvious that the FAA has been struggling for years to find enough qualified applicants for ATC positions. They could not recruit enough to meet the target.

 

These plaignants have likely been rejected because they were not qualified, not because of their race or gender.

[Bkk Brian]

Brigida, who is white and scored 100 percent on his training exam, said he was discriminated against because of his race when his application was rejected.

In January 2014, Brigida received an email informing him that the FAA was "implementing changes to improve and streamline" the hiring process for air traffic controllers and that his application was "impacted" by these changes, according to William Perry Pendley, an attorney and president of the Mountain States Legal Foundation, the firm handling the lawsuit.

 

Mountain States Legal Foundation said in a Thursday statement: "DEI hiring policies have no place in America, especially in safety-critical industries, yet they have shaped the FAA's hiring decisions for years. Last night's accident is a sobering reminder of the cost of placing ideology over expertise. How many more tragedies must occur before we return to common sense? It's time to demand accountability, end DEI hiring in aviation, and restore safety as the top priority in our airways."

https://www.newsweek.com/faa-reject-air-traffic-controllers-race-airport-crash-2024097

 

[rudi49jr]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn_uMY15GlwaPpx80-WjR6g/community?lb=UgkxAmWN4PENuA4ut3PCdjzVtHY7ld0ziHaw
 

[rudi49jr]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuDv5p8E-evaRSh542hDV5g/community?lb=UgkxxLkTcr0l9EGNXsTQlsLp7Ibgq0W3XvBZ
 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

22 minutes ago, Watawattana said:

I can't answer for thaibeachlovers.  But I have over 30 years of direct experience in this stuff and can answer.  Safety has to be first, last and at every point in between.  It absolutely is normal practice to reduce the volume of traffic to maintain a safe level of service.  I got some examples later of this being done well, and being done very, very badly.

 

Keeping it basic, the safest air traffic service is one that has zero flights.  Every air traffic movement added after that increases risk.  Risks are mitigated through the use of systems, procedures and people.  There comes a time when these 3 mitigations are insufficient.  That is usually determined through modelling and the controller training, testing and regulatory monitoring process.  

 

This process is often held offline.  On the training system scenarios can get designed to effectively test the controller towards breaking point (making mistakes, not mental breakdown), often well beyond the allowable sector capacity.  So, when they pass their regulatory assessment 'live', they are at a comfortable and competent level, with capacity to keep things safe and to handle any situation that goes wrong (emergencies etc.).  The training process 'should' weed out any controller not up to the job long before they talk to actual aircraft, and any live training should then further weed out anyone who is unable to jump from the training to the 'live' environment. This is why I believe the noise about DEI hires is bovine 💩.  If DEI hires were allowed to control despite not being good enough then that should be a MASSIVE national scandal.  No, a worldwide scandal.

 

I cannot say what happened in the tower here, but the FAA acknowledged that staffing levels at the time were “not normal for the time of day and the volume of traffic.”  I'm sure this will be a focus in the investigation, as will be the height of the helicopter, or why there doesn't appear to be a system available that gave the controller a very obvious and urgent warning of dangerous proximity.  And many other things of course.  

 

Especially WHY traffic was not reduced to maintain a safe level of service, for example any arrogance that led the controller to think he'll  be okay, any pressure on the controller to keep going so as not to upset the flying public or to keep the ATC revenue stream at full throttle or to break service level records.

 

But, please note.  This exact thing HAS HAPPENED BEFORE. Überlingen.

https://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~johnson/Eurocontrol/Ueberlingen/Ueberlingen_Final_Report.PDF

 

The controller was overloaded and it led to a mid-air crash.  The controller got murdered by the parent of a child who died in that crash.  But actually, the "why" the controller was overloaded was the key to this overload.  The FAA will be very well aware of what happened over Überlingen, should have learnt those lessons and should have NEVER allowed a single controller to manage the workload that led to the crash over the Potomac.

 

Going back to DEI.  It might be that there was not enough air traffic controllers or the systems are not up to the most modern standards, I don't know.  These 2 things cost money.  Money doesn't grow on trees; the FAA has a budget.  But if that budget is being spent on things that don't matter, e.g. DEI, then it isn't being spent on front line controllers, the best systems available and the training and procedures to make sure the whole ATC system purrs perfectly.  I think the timing of Trump's comments was appalling, but the essence of what he was getting at has some potential to being a contributing factor in this.

 

Now, back to the reduction the volume of traffic to maintain a safe level of service.  This is extremely common in around the world, and it does happen in the USA, be it weather or peaks in traffic volume.  But the most relevant item for my response is traffic reduction due to under-staffing.  It has happened a lot.  Recently at London's Gatwick Airport, the world's busiest single runway airport.

https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/air-traffic-controller-staff-shortages-disrupt-gatwick-flights

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/gatwick-flight-cancellations-easyjet-air-traffic-control-b2609196.html

 

The key quote from The Independent is "According to NATS, the air-traffic control provider that runs the tower, temporary air traffic restrictions are currently in place at the airport “in order to maintain safety”."

 

NATS got a massive amount of 💩 for this but they put safety first, last and at every point in between.  And nobody died.  The main reason for NATS struggling on this was COVID, and that they couldn't train the required supply of new controllers to replace the normal attrition of older controllers (deaths and retirements).

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks!

 

Maybe a follow up question.

I don't like DEI. But if they hire some LBGTQ+/- do you know or guess if the tests are according to the same standards?

I.e. maybe 100 white guys apply for the job and 10 DEI special. Do the DEI people pass the same tests? Or is it like normal people have to score 100% and DEI will be hired even if they only have 70% or something like that?

If someone was hired because she was a black lesbian, but she still is good in the job, then I think that should not be a problem.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

4 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn_uMY15GlwaPpx80-WjR6g/community?lb=UgkxAmWN4PENuA4ut3PCdjzVtHY7ld0ziHaw
 

Do you have a reliable source for this?

[Watawattana]

5 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn_uMY15GlwaPpx80-WjR6g/community?lb=UgkxAmWN4PENuA4ut3PCdjzVtHY7ld0ziHaw
 

This is just noise.  Utter rubbish.  This would have no effect on a front line operational air traffic controller, like the one involved in this incident.  If there are underlying issues that affected the controller or an incorrect level of resourcing that led to this crash then they started many years ago, and not under the Trump 2.0 administration.

[Bkk Brian]

Clutching at straws trying to blame Trump for this. Perhaps a re read of the OP is appropriate for some. Meanwhile:

 

There is currently no indication that Trump's executive order played a role in the accident involving the two aircraft carrying 60 passengers and four crew members.

Trump's order does not apply to military personnel or positions related to immigration enforcement, national security, or public safety.

It is unclear whether the freeze prevents the FAA from hiring new air traffic controllers or if these roles fall under public safety professionals.

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-freeze-hiring-air-traffic-controllers-washington-crash-2023348

[rudi49jr]

11 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Do you have a reliable source for this?

What do you mean? These are facts. You can look them up yourself if you don’t believe it.

[Watawattana]

14 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks!

 

Maybe a follow up question.

I don't like DEI. But if they hire some LBGTQ+/- do you know or guess if the tests are according to the same standards?

I.e. maybe 100 white guys apply for the job and 10 DEI special. Do the DEI people pass the same tests? Or is it like normal people have to score 100% and DEI will be hired even if they only have 70% or something like that?

If someone was hired because she was a black lesbian, but she still is good in the job, then I think that should not be a problem.

 

 

There should be a standard that everyone has to pass.  DEI or not DEI.  No difference.  Of course I'm not sat on the shoulder of every assessor to know if they set different standards for different people.  I really very much doubt it as they know they'd be the one passing someone not up to grade, and the laser focus would come back to them if something went wrong.

 

Edit: it's not a math exam where a percentage is easy to establish; it's down to the experience and judgement of the assessor on the controller's handling of the scenarios in front of them, be it on a training system or live. I don't fancy a controller getting 90%; that's one in 10 aircraft crashing😁.   So there will be some interpretation and possibly some unintentional bias that exists in most human beings.  And as most assessors are inherently conservative (they don't want a dud on their watch) it's likely the bias would be to fail someone who is close top passing rather than pass a potential dud.

 

Operational controllers are regularly assessed too, at least once a year.

 

The other thing is if there's an incident then that would be reviewed.  If a controller has too many or has a really bad one then they can lose their licence to control at that airport.  They can get deployed to a quieter airport or get fired.  Again, if a manager decides to keep a controller who clearly isn't up to standard then that is on them (or the senior management culture that forces that manager to take no action), they'll get found out and they very well know that too.

 

I'm pretty sure this incident will mean there's a deep look at the FAA's culture.

[rudi49jr]

10 minutes ago, Watawattana said:

This is just noise.  Utter rubbish.

Just like Trump trying to pin this on DEI.

[Watawattana]

23 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuDv5p8E-evaRSh542hDV5g/community?lb=UgkxxLkTcr0l9EGNXsTQlsLp7Ibgq0W3XvBZ
 

 

I'm sure there was a deputy...

[Watawattana]

10 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Just like Trump trying to pin this on DEI.

Possibly, yes.  I'd like to know how much from the FAA budget was being spent on any initiatives or resources that do not improve the front line air traffic control service.  Includes, but I'm sure not exclusively, DEI.

 

A previous employer of mine spent a lot of money targeting a certain demographic as they were very under-represented in ATC.  That demographic had the core skills to do the job but rarely applied.  To me that was money well spent, to others it might be woke nonsense.  There's a lot more to this than Trump's headline grabbing activities of course.

 

[Baht Simpson]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

Now look at the people Trump has appointed....

Look at the person the American people appointed. 😮 

[Thingamabob]

3 hours ago, Woke to Sounds of Horking said:

 

Wait a minute... this reeks of nonsense... is he parroting what Mr Trump said?

 

Or is The Telegraph full of A.I. bullship?

 

Why is he posing for a photo for The Telegraph?

 

President Trump said those exact words a day (or so) ago: "You want to hire the best and the brightest..."

 

So is this kid just a parrot or is this just more A.I. nonsense designed to shape opinion?

Not nonsense. Common sense, no matter who said it.

[pomchop]

so if it is determined that the primary cause of the crash was a white male helicopter pilot with decades of experience who voted for trump i am sure that an apology will be forthcoming from all the monday morning quarterbacks and experts?  or not.

[novacova]

1 hour ago, Watawattana said:

This process is often held offline.  On the training system scenarios can get designed to effectively test the controller towards breaking point (making mistakes, not mental breakdown), often well beyond the allowable sector capacity.  So, when they pass their regulatory assessment 'live', they are at a comfortable and competent level, with capacity to keep things safe and to handle any situation that goes wrong (emergencies etc.).  The training process 'should' weed out any controller not up to the job long before they talk to actual aircraft, and any live training should then further weed out anyone who is unable to jump from the training to the 'live' environment. This is why I believe the noise about DEI hires is bovine 💩.

A conflation of half truths concerning the implementation of DEI, so another pile of donkey💩 The United States already has equal protection laws on the books that protects individuals from discrimination based on looks opposed to merit. DEI is a warped system that brings protections to people based on looks as a primary, opposed to merit as a primary where only the best based on merit are hired no matter how they look or what other nonsense, anything less is bound to create problems, trainers are of course going to be under pressure to get the substandard hires through and will be more apt to expedite and dovetail the trainees in real world environments, but still the DEI hires are just that, in the mix there will be without a doubt, not the sharpest or the brightest in the bunch, just second and third tier to meet a quota. For one to come here and state that there’s a uniform code of standard in the federal government when there’s a non-merit based policy for hiring that blatantly conflicts with merit based is utterly oxymoronic and ridiculous.

1 hour ago, Watawattana said:

If DEI hires were allowed to control despite not being good enough then that should be a MASSIVE national scandal.  No, a worldwide scandal.

Good grief! Where have you been hiding, legacy media land? Obviously you have missed the MASSIVE DEI scandal that was going on for the past four years and just got voted out!

[Watawattana]

41 minutes ago, Baht Simpson said:

Look at the person the American people appointed. 😮

Doh!  But appoint him they did.  I respect your right to say this but for me that horse has bolted.  He's here for 4 more years (give or take).  And the Dems failed to put up someone capable of beating him, so I'd blame the Dems for Trump winning.

 

That horse has bolted too of course.

[newnative]

    More a case of not enough staffing.  Did anybody catch Trump being referred to as "former President Donald Trump" in the article?   Wishful thinking on the part of the writer, I guess.