It is interesting though predictable that Thai Muslims appear to be on board the global reaction against Israel's current escalation into Gaza.

Their messages of protest fails to address the continuous drip drip drip of rocketing of Israel by Hamas that had been going on for years, Hamas recognized as a terrorist organization through much of the world, a group that specifically TARGETS civilians rather than military targets, and is attacking a member state of the United Nations. What sovereign nation would tolerate such attacks? Would the Thai Muslims tolerate that if they had their own state?

Israel hosts 25,000 Thais, 3,000 in the target area of Hamas rockets. But these Thai Muslims are defending the very group that is putting Thais at risk. Interesting, no?

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1357...-israel-embassy

jingning, let it go, it will just turn in to a thread war...

but i can tell u that im proud of my son; he managed to get a hold of people from the pikud ha orif (the civilian body that functions in time of war) to deal with the thai workers at least in the moshav near netivot: beit hagedi

since a friend of anon told us that they were working there as usual, and didnt go anywhere protected, nor know what to do, when the sirens sound; they are just sitting and listening to the booms etc... so today, 10 days later, my son found someone that would go in to the moshav at least there, and arrange a 'safe room' for them to go to, when there is a siren... and to talk with the employers to make sure they remember that thai workers are people also... of course thai news doesnt mention this either - the treatment of the workers during times of war... havent seen any official statements from high places about thai people (workers) coming back to thailand; or any other advisories... the thai in the north here havent a clue what's going on here in the southwest area either. and from anon's reaction, it doesnt seem to to matter to them either... it seems to matter more to me than to him (my husband who is a fatalist anyhow)

the thais that we spoke with on the phone say they are mostly drinking and working and ignoring the siutuation; maximum, they will go home for free (in a body bag)... that is the thai black humour of the day....

dont see that that interests most people here on the board either... or maybe they are hoping they will have less relatives to support back in the village...

i heard one thai got killed; wasnt exactly on the front pages though; and the guy that was helping my son organize the stuff for the thais, got called back to family as his nephew was KIA yesterday....so new guy, starting all over again with the organizing stuff

my own thoughts: everyone has made their beds, now we are laying in them...

bina

israel

in point: the arab guys i work with at the hotel, well, most really dont seem to care what happens there either... these guys are well off, educated, a bit more assimilated and mainstream, and are still going to clubs, hanging out, and ignoring the political situation altogether, or maybe just wishing it would go away as it is interfereing with their daily lives of 20+ yr old males.

I think it is little different to the red vs yellow camps. Once you are settled in a camp you support that side regardless of whether they are right or wrong, and that means unwavering support without ever actually analyzing any given situation. As religion has been made central to the middle east conflict, those with religious convictions are really only going to think one way.

What a mess.

They better be careful or Israel will invade Bangkok for the continued sling, sling, slinging of spit-balls into their Embassy.

This thread is going closed ASAP, to many controversial opinions from each side.

Kindly do not move that shown hatred to this board or country.

MC

Why do we farangs judge the Thai's if they want to demonstrate against Israel. If thousands of people demonstrate from around the world against Israel let the Thai muslim's demonstrate. I am sure the person that started this post also don't like if American's or European's demonstrate against Israel.

I am a Caucasian muslim and love Thailand for almost 20 years. I speak Thai, Malay and English and I am all the time in the South of Thailand, mingering around with all religions. I have many Thai friends from bankers, generals, hotel owners but most of all the normal peoples on the street. During the Takbai incident I demonstrated with several NGO's in Bangkok but I also frequently demonstrated against the Burma regime.

I am certainly not a fan of Hamas, Bush & Co and at times the politics of Israel.

Sometimes governments come and they are not what we like, so we can vote for a change. Since Yitzak Rabin, Israel has not produced one leader that can match Mr. Rabin deeds he did during his short term in office.

America has that change now and things can only get better. Clinton too was that change before, otherwise they would have never been any peace agreements with the historic handshake of Rabin and Arafat.

The king loves all Thai's including the muslims' that demonstrated today

Shalom,

PS: I made some small edits to make sure no one could feel offended and removed a few typos.

The Muslims might want to do some protesting on behalf of their brethern in the South of THIS country.

Good call Scott.

A gentle warning to all... 3) Religious or racial slurs, rude and degrading comments towards women, or extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated.

From the Forum Rules.

Please consider carefully before replying in this thread.

I have seen at front row the actions of both groups and nations, how they both humiliate, torture, savage and kill human beings.

No sympaties from me, but the children there should not be in that situation, now nor before.

MC

America has that change now and things can only get better

Yes, people in America voted for change. But Obama's position on supporting Israel over Hamas is the exact same as Bush's. Like it or not.

Euro people may be in a for a major letdown on that one.

Bush pushed democracy in the middle east. The people of Gaza voted freely to be governed by a terrorist organization. Pretty much nothing has worked so far.

Clearly, both sides are no angels, and the loss of life is tragic.

To the Muslim guy, of course Thai Muslims have every right to protest and I am pleased Thailand is a free enough country to allow that even given the severe political problems Thailand itself has with radical Muslim activists. I still find it interesting that the Thai Muslims appear to be identifying more about the welfare of Palestinians than with their fellow Thais, who happen to living on the Israeli side of the border. I am sorry but if a Hamas rocket happened to blast a Thai worker settlement, I don't think we would be seeing even one of those protesters on the streets condemning Hamas and pleading with Hamas to stop sending rockets targeting civilians. I realize that might sound to be a rude observation, but can you deny it is true?

All my solidarity to the Palestine People.

All my solidarity to the Palestine People.

That was nice.

Does that mean you support Hamas and their rocketing civilian targets? If a group was bombing your town, you wouldn't expect your government to retaliate? Personally, I can't imagine any country on earth tolerating constant rocketing.

All my solidarity to the Palestine People.

That was nice.

Does that mean you support Hamas and their rocketing civilian targets? If a group was bombing your town, you wouldn't expect your government to retaliate? Personally, I can't imagine any country on earth tolerating constant rocketing.

I Said and I repeat: All my solidarity to the Palestine People. Why you put in my mouth words I didn't say??

Do you mean that all the Palestinian people are terrorists?

Personally I know several palestinian and for sure they are not terrorists, they don't try to bomb Israel with home-made rockets.

Not with Israel, not with Hamas

PEACE!

OK, anguid, thanks for clarifying. A noble sentiment. I shall assume you also feel solidarity with the Israeli people, and leave it at that ...

it is a great pity that apart from a few minor demonstrations here and there the arab world in general has never found it within their hearts to support their brothers , the palestinians.

for 60 years now the greater arab world has had time , chances and opportunities to aid the palestinian cause , not by repeating the usual anti israeli mantras , but by lifting the palestinians by providing them with education , trading opportunities , technology , investment , a sense of pride in who they are and decent living standards.

instead they have left them to their fate as hopeless pawns in the never ending battle between the state of israel and the extremist arab states and terrorist factions that have had filled the leadership vacuum and had control of palestine for years.

had the arab world looked forward instead of backward then the palestinians could have been given the responsible leadership , peace and stability that would have enabled it to move away from being a medieval resentment filled backwater to being a modern middle eastern state , living in peace with its neighbour.

hamas does need to be eradicated , and unfortunately there is only one way to do that.

To the Muslim guy,

You mean MobileContent , don't you?

jing,

and to others.... somehow, i dont see too many thai workers getting in an uproar one way or an other; as sons of friends of ours are in gaza at the moment, anon's only comments are fatalistic ones...

he is as political as , well, as sbk or boo said on an other thread, wet lettuce...

jingning, of course thai muslems arent thinking about the thai workers here, why should they. no one else is either. no thai worker has told me of any evacuation plans that were written about in the bangkok post blurb...

and the protesters here are giving moral support but probably wishing deep intheir hearts that the problem will go away by hook crook or gun; because no muslem country is planning mass evacuations of the children and women from gaza to anywhere else... no one wants them, and they are stuck in the middle.

of course thai muslems will protest. people have to identify with ideas/situations that they feel a connection too, even if it is tennuous at best... i would find it wierd if they didnt identify somehow. as long as they are slinging spit balls and not bombs, as long as it makes them feel good...

taxexile, u are 100% correct; but too late, too many generations of kids being raised in violence means its already conditioned responses.

bina

israel

All my solidarity to the Palestine People.

That was nice.

Does that mean you support Hamas and their rocketing civilian targets? If a group was bombing your town, you wouldn't expect your government to retaliate? Personally, I can't imagine any country on earth tolerating constant rocketing.

Just goes to show you that not all the lunacy was wiped out with Rachel Corrie.

I also find it hard to sympatise with the Gazan people. There's been plenty of times when there was supposed to be a peace treaty and yet they allowed Hamas to derail it. After electing a known terrorist organisation as their government, I lost even that shred of compassion I had. For all the whinging that's been going on about the IDF attacking the 'palestinians' I've noticed it's been oddly silent on the West Bank/Israeli border. Ohh, never mind, not odd since the West Bank has not been violating Israel's sovereignty.

And so I don't have to respond to the tripe that is going to be spewn forth, let me address the points I am sure will follow my posting.

1. Israel is occupying 'palestine'. Patently false. The area that Israel has made concessions for the Arabs to call as a homeland exceeds the League of Nations Mandate. In fact Israel has, with the exception of this invasion, remained outside the border of Gaza since 2005.

2. Israel is targeting civilians with the women and children bearing the brunt of the attack. For instance, this page from a 'palestinian' newspaper lists 372 deaths, with 16 women and 75 children. Dreadful-if true. And yet, two days before hand the same newspaper listed 334 deaths with 11 women and 33 children. So, for those additional 38 deaths, 42(!) were children and 5 were women. I suppose that there could have been a clerical error, but is it not more likely that Hamas' well oiled propaganda machine is going into overtime? Also, how much death has been caused by Hamas' insistence on using civilian structures to hide their terrorists weapons and use human shields (which is in contravention of international law). Consider this video which clearly shows the secondary explosions of a cache of weapons they had hidden in a mosque. If they will hide these in a place of worship, how many were hidden in private homes that detonated after an Israeli air strike and wounded civilians? If Israel were to not strike those caches, how could it protect their own citizens?

3. Israel is using disproportionate force. For most arguments this boils down to, well Gazan's rockets aren't that accurate and don't kill that many people. So to counter that argument, we'll look at it strictly by the numbers. Proportionality is defined as such: y/x = x/z. If we express the force applied in response to a terrorist attack as y, and the x being Israeli response to the y of Hamas' action, and finally the z indicating the level of instigation that Israel is responsible for you end up with the equation of y=x²/z. So, consider the amount the sum will be if you were to assume that Israel was living by their side of the truce before the rockets started back up. Z=0. So y=x²/0. I.E., per looking at merely the numbers, and considering the fact that Hamas continued to rocket and mortar Israel since the signing of the truce, y=infinity; or rather there's no disproportionate response to those unprovoked attacks.

4. Israel is preventing food and medicine from reaching the Gazans. Per this page, the "World Food Programme has informed Israel that they will not be resuming shipment of food commodities in to Gaza due to the fact that their warehouses are at full capacity and will last for approximately two weeks." And yet the very next day the commissioner of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency "told reporters by video link from Gaza that the agency has not distributed any food for two weeks because of the shortage of supplies and the Israeli bombardment". More spinning of facts? Consider that since later she states "We haven't seen widespread hunger."? Or that although the UNRWA had stopped delivering aid due to lack of flour disregarding the fact "Most of the other elements of the food packages were still available, albeit in lesser quantities." For what it's worth this is the content list of the packages: "The packages include a 50-kilogram (110 pounds) sack of sugar, a 50 kg sack of rice, a 50 kg sack of lentils, four jerry cans of cooking oil and a large sack of powdered milk". So beans and rice can not be delivered unless there's flour to go with them? And poor management of supplies on UNRWA's watch leads to blaming Israel?

5. Israel has closed its borders to the Gazans in contravention of international law. Which international law? AFAIK, there is no international law regarding the admittance or rejection of entrance from certain nationalities. All States are allowed to keep their sovereignty, and a part of that is the regulation of their borders as they see fit especially in regards toward a hostile territory irrespective of the status of that territory. Interestingly the condemnation of Israel is also not extended to Egypt which has a similar policy in place. The worst that Israel could be condemned for is retorsion (using economic or other non-military actions to punish another State); especially since there are NO international rules in place stipulating the illegality of failure to trade with another State. And that's based on the assumption that Gaza is indeed a State. If we're to concede the first point that Gaza is actually occupied than any closure of the border is an act that Israel has taken upon one of its own territories and thus has no international repercussions.

That covers the majority of complaints I can foresee, but I'll be glad to discuss, in a rational manner any other objections that may be raised by detractors to what appears to be reasoning.

taxexile, u are 100% correct; but too late, too many generations of kids being raised in violence means its already conditioned responses.

Yes, of course. War is the normal thing in that part of the world now for generations. This current war, which this time pretty obviously Israel is going to "win" unlike their Lebanon fiasco, inflames another new generation that hate each other.

of course thai muslems will protest. people have to identify with ideas/situations that they feel a connection too, even if it is tennuous at best... i would find it wierd if they didnt identify somehow. as long as they are slinging spit balls and not bombs, as long as it makes them feel good...

That's an understandable point. However back when there was ethnic cleansing of Muslims by Christians in part of the old Yugoslavia, the Thai Muslims were not protesting. But given a chance to demonize Israel, bring it on. As horrible as what is happening now to Palestinians in Gaza and it is horrible, it is not ethnic cleansing.

OK, anguid, thanks for clarifying. A noble sentiment. I shall assume you also feel solidarity with the Israeli people, and leave it at that ...

people can not even agree here on Thaivisa how you expect hamas and israel will ever hammer this out and come to a agreement.

Their messages of protest fails to address the continuous drip drip drip of rocketing of Israel by Hamas that had been going on for years, Hamas recognized as a terrorist organization through much of the world, a group that specifically TARGETS civilians rather than military targets, and is attacking a member state of the United Nations.

Humm...and what were the founders of the Zionist entity like Menachim Begin and his cohorts in the Ergun and the Stern Gang? For anyone who doesn't know, they intentionally targeted Arab civilians in their terrorist activities and assassinated UN peace envoys in Palestine.

The United Nation's General Assembly has gone on record as stating that Zionism = Racism. It is the right and responsibilty for all member States, including Thailand, to resist the aggression of this rogue state. Hopefully, Thai Muslims will sign-up to fight the Zionists, like their co-religionists are doing in Malaysia and Indonesia.

Proportionality (law), a legal principle under municipal law in which the punishment of a certain crime should be in proportion to the severity of the crime itself, and under international law an important consideration when assessing the military necessity of an attack on a military objective.

The Fourth Geneva Convention (or GCIV) relates to the protection of civilians during times of war "in the hands" of an enemy and under any military occupation by a foreign power.

• Article 2 states that signatories are bound by the convention both in war, armed conflicts where war has not been declared and in an occupation of another country's territory.
  
• Article 3 states that even where there is not a conflict of international character the parties must as a minimum adhere to minimal protections described as: noncombatants, members of armed forces who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely
  
• Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
  

Mobile Content - a Muslim saying Shalom !!! I don't think so. TROLL

you read about the disproportionate military response by Israel but how about the disproportionate protests by Muslims.

if Israel kills (justified or not) 1 Muslim, the Islam world protests (kill the Jews) but where are those same protesters when Muslims slaughter their Muslim brothers (?) in the 1000's?

Proportionality (law), a legal principle under municipal law in which the punishment of a certain crime should be in proportion to the severity of the crime itself, and under international law an important consideration when assessing the military necessity of an attack on a military objective.

The Fourth Geneva Convention (or GCIV) relates to the protection of civilians during times of war "in the hands" of an enemy and under any military occupation by a foreign power.

• Article 2 states that signatories are bound by the convention both in war, armed conflicts where war has not been declared and in an occupation of another country's territory.
  
• Article 3 states that even where there is not a conflict of international character the parties must as a minimum adhere to minimal protections described as: noncombatants, members of armed forces who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely
  
• Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
  

Reading further down in the wikipedia article you come across the part that defines the bolded section of your quote:

"Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives,^[1] even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)((i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)((iv)."

Furthermore, why wasn't Article 4 mentioned?

Article 4 defines who is a Protected person: Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals. But it explicitly excludes Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention and the citizens of a neutral state or an allied state if that state has normal diplomatic relations with in the State in whose hands they are.

Can't find a link with Gaza ('Palestine') being a signatory of the Geneva Convention, so if you wish to look strictly at the rules, than everything you just wrote doesn't apply to them. Of course the Geneva convention is a good start and countries can, indeed should, interpet the rules more strictly than are laid out in the Convention. And if it were, has Israel violated any of the following prohibtions?

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; ( taking of hostages;

© outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment

(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

I don't understand if you were trying to say that Israel is in contravention of the guidelines regarding collective punishment (would seem to be the reason you made sure that Article 33 was quoted), but if you are, perhaps a broader explaination of collective punishment needs to be made. Collective punishment is the assignment of criminal type penalties based on upon the actions of a few being applied to the whole. Notice the criminal type penalties section. Thus, if the actions taken by Israel does not fit in the definition of criminal type penalties, that argument is null and void.

Basically a lot of (partial) quotations in the post; but that begs the question as to why?

Well Dave, not holding a degree in International Law, I have merely included the articles i thought pertinent to the discussion.

As noted previously in the thread, Israel's first governments were made up of of men and women who were members of terrorist organizations such as Irgun and the Stern Gang. They were labeled as such by the authorities of the day, the British. This after assassinations, including those of British soldiers and a United Nations peace envoy, and bombings. This is a fact.

Pot, kettle, black.

it is a great pity that apart from a few minor demonstrations here and there the arab world in general has never found it within their hearts to support their brothers , the palestinians.

for 60 years now the greater arab world has had time , chances and opportunities to aid the palestinian cause , not by repeating the usual anti israeli mantras , but by lifting the palestinians by providing them with education , trading opportunities , technology , investment , a sense of pride in who they are and decent living standards.

instead they have left them to their fate as hopeless pawns in the never ending battle between the state of israel and the extremist arab states and terrorist factions that have had filled the leadership vacuum and had control of palestine for years.

had the arab world looked forward instead of backward then the palestinians could have been given the responsible leadership , peace and stability that would have enabled it to move away from being a medieval resentment filled backwater to being a modern middle eastern state , living in peace with its neighbour.

hamas does need to be eradicated , and unfortunately there is only one way to do that.

It is no big secret that other Arabs mostly despise the Palestinians and are just using them to harass Israel and ruin any peace prospects.

The other Arabs think that the Palestinians are backward and stupid and capable of nothing except violence and do not want them causing problems in their own countries.

The Palestinians have turned down land for peace over and over again. They have always been their own worst enemies. Even if there ever was peace, Israel would end up having to support them long into the future and they would eventually demand to bring back all of their families and have them supported as well.

Israelis may be industrious, but the Palestinians are pretty much the perfect weapon to keep them from progressing very quickly. They are going to pay for realizing their dream one way or another.

Well Dave, not holding a degree in International Law, I have merely included the articles i thought pertinent to the discussion.

As noted previously in the thread, Israel's first governments were made up of of men and women who were members of terrorist organizations such as Irgun and the Stern Gang. They were labeled as such by the authorities of the day, the British. This after assassinations, including those of British soldiers and a United Nations peace envoy, and bombings. This is a fact.

You don't have a degree in history either.

Most Israelis looked down on Irgun and the Stern Gang for killing civilians, but it was common all over the world at that time to target both military and civilian "enemies" (Dresden is just one example) and, unlike the Palestinians, both groups stuck to killing actual "enemies".

The Irgun blew up the King David Hotel because it was British Military Headquarters and though they were warned they refused to leave. "We don't take orders from Jews" were their famous last words. The British had stabbed the Jews in the back after promising them a homeland.

Irgun and the Stern Gang were not the nicest of folks, but they did not do a lot that was unusual for any military unit at the time. They did not kill men, women and children who had nothing to do with their war as the Palestinians have done many, many times. They might have been "terrorists" in the way that they were not a regular army - as Israel was not a nation yet - but they were not terrorists in the modern sense of indiscriminant killing of people who have nothing to do with a particular fight

The toughest conflict on the planet, and I cannot see it being resolved for a long, long time.

Before condemning the Palestinians, remember that the outside world forced the establishment of a state within their lands. They were forcibly removed. Now imagine anyone does that to anyone anywhere in the world. Will they just let it go? Ever? For centuries? The history of the Palestinians is often forgotten in the heat of more recent events there. The Palestinians though cannot be expected to forget in such a short time.

Israel's desire to have a peaceful secure state is understandable. Rockets being fired continuously into their territory is unacceptable. Suicide-bombers coming through the crossings as well. It's reaction is also understandable.

Now what. A peace deal won't work, because a very large part of Palestinian society can never accept the way their land was taken. Can anyone really blame them? This is what is behind the rockets and bombings. They will not accept a forgive and forget deal that in effect says they must simply shut up about the taking of their land. Understandable also.

It is a colossal screw up made by the West. Nobody sees a solution. There is no solution.

But understand both sides. Here the West IS firmly to blame.