Thai Banks To Start Charging For Atm Withdrawals ...

[merck]

Big deal. Banks are busineses, not public services.

Some of them seem quite happy to be bailed out by public money when they go bust though.

Edited April 8, 2009 by merck

[bdenner]

Just another thought on this. With so many banks involved and all placing the same charge at the same time! Isn't that price fixing or co-hersion? Illegal in the Western World.

A number of major Airlines have recently been heavily fined for just this sort of thing!

[donx]

You are a fool for using a bank that charges you fees. there are many non-fee banks that issue ATMS. perhaps a better name would have been thinktoolittle?

Not a squeek was heard when other banks charge what they want. Now the world is falling apart when Thai banks (that actually provide the service and machines) come to table to get their (if anyone deserves, they do) cut.

Look how WestPac Australia handles one transaction from Bangkok Bank ATM. There are 3 fees (17.21 A$) of total 450 baht for 1 single transaction charged by Westpac while service provider (BKK Bank) is doing it all and just onlooking, for free:

25 Mar 2009 WBC FEE - WITHDRAWAL AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA S3DIP392023097240309 5.00

25 Mar 2009 WITHDRAWAL AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 406.99

25 Mar 2009 MASTERCARD CURRENCY CONVERSION FEE BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 4.07

25 Mar 2009 FEE - FOREIGN CURRENCY TRANS AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 8.14

Some even proclaimed this is a plot to drive foreigners out! What a nonsense.

I don't know what country TonySoprano's bank if from. I assume think_too_mutt uses banks from Australia. I use a very small local US bank with only 5 locations. They don't charge any ATM fees. This is how they stay competitive with the big banks. Now if I use an ATM from another bank, that other bank may charge me a fee, but my bank doesn't charge a fee. And if I use an ATM in the Allpoints network (a nationwide ATM network) then I don't get charged any fee at all. This is how it works for me for ATMs in the US.

Every month my in-laws withdrawal money from a Thai bank ATM using a US ATM card we provided them so that they can make a car payment for us. Usually the fee for this withdrawal is $1. The exchange rate is good IMHO. For example, they withdrew 10,000 baht on March 31 and the amount withdrawn in the US (excluding the fee which usually shows up a day later) was $285.79 which is an exchange rate of 34.99 baht/$. Using the baht exchange rate information from Thai Visa, you will see an exchange rate for that day of 35.185.

I am concerned about this new ATM fee because it is going to cost us a lot more to keep sending money monthly the way that we have been doing for so many years. The bank account the in-laws take money from has only enough money for the monthly transfers. I transfer money into this account at the end of each month. This keeps them from attempting to withdrawal too much money.

Unfortunately, I don't know if there are any non Thai Bankers Association banks in their small province, so I'll have to figure out a way to minimize these fees someway. A fee of 150 baht seems way over the top. That's over $4. I've seen nothing like this type of fee except in casinos in Las Vegas and such.

[loong]

Just another thought on this. With so many banks involved and all placing the same charge at the same time! Isn't that price fixing or co-hersion? Illegal in the Western World.

A number of major Airlines have recently been heavily fined for just this sort of thing!

Somebody who doesn't read the thread before posting.

Yours is not another thought, already been mentioned.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2646973

Possibly or maybe the Thai monopolies commission or similar body, would say that it is illegal for all the banks to collude into making such a deal ....... not exactly creating a free open market im sure you'd agree.

Surely all bank charges in Thailand are governed by the same laws, if Thais were to get charged 150 baht (which as all i know they do) then surely this would be seens as excessive profit and the government could put limits on such cartel like profiteering.

But Thailand have been used to a one sided free trade agreement with western nations for so long that they dont know what free trade is.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2647556

As far as I know, bank charges are not governed by law, however it would be against the law for any companies in the UK that sell a similar product or service to collude on setting prices or fees.

Something like OPEC would be against the law in UK as I'm sure would be this Banking association fixing charges.

[bdenner]

Somebody who doesn't read the thread before posting.

Yours is not another thought, already been mentioned.

Please forgive me. Unlike yourself I do not have the time to read and scrutinise every written word in these forums.

[think_too_mut]

I assume think_too_mutt uses banks from Australia.

Yes, WestPac is one of the largest Oz banks.

Exchange rates can vary considerably, I remember once when I had to exchange money at hotel reception desk, they gave me 19THB for 1A$ while banks would outside were giving 22. That's over 10% difference.

In this particular case on March 25. 2009, exchange rates were:

Thai Visa: 24.84

Oanda: 24.80

Bangkok Bank: 24.42

Westpac: 24.62

What counst is, what Westpac has charged me. It gave me 1% better exchange rate than Bangkok Bank although BBL's ATM was used to take the money out. Westpac exchange rate governed.

That 1% better exchange rate, is, to someone's confusion, exactly 4.07A$ they charged me for currency conversion fee :

25 Mar 2009 MASTERCARD CURRENCY CONVERSION FEE BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 4.07

It worked far better when I bought my condo in July 2008, it was 79,000A$ (then exchange rate was 33 baht) and 1% was 26,400baht in my favor.

To move the money, the charge for the whole lot was 980THB.

I use a very small local US bank with only 5 locations. They don't charge any ATM fees. This is how they stay competitive with the big banks.

Mutuals, Credit Unions and community banks stay competitive in several ways, the most important is that they do not pay government 1$ per transaction but all transactions in 1 day is counted as 1 transaction and they pay 1$ for the whole lot. In return, they don't have all the functions regular bank have.

I know from payment processing: a medium size processing center would see 50,000 cheques per day, each of them constituting a transaction and 50,000$ had to be paid to the government for that day.

Mutuals (even if they happened to have that many transactions in 1 day) would pay only 1$.

Plus, they don't have glitzy offices at Manhattan and expensive media marketing campaigns.

[donx]

I assume think_too_mutt uses banks from Australia.

Yes, WestPac is one of the largest Oz banks.

Exchange rates can vary considerably, I remember once when I had to exchange money at hotel reception desk, they gave me 19THB for 1A$ while banks would outside were giving 22. That's over 10% difference.

In this particular case on March 25. 2009, exchange rates were:

Thai Visa: 24.84

Oanda: 24.80

Bangkok Bank: 24.42

Westpac: 24.62

What counst is, what Westpac has charged me. It gave me 1% better exchange rate than Bangkok Bank although BBL's ATM was used to take the money out. Westpac exchange rate governed.

That 1% better exchange rate, is, to someone's confusion, exactly 4.07A$ they charged me for currency conversion fee :

25 Mar 2009 MASTERCARD CURRENCY CONVERSION FEE BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 4.07

It worked far better when I bought my condo in July 2008, it was 79,000A$ (then exchange rate was 33 baht) and 1% was 26,400baht in my favor.

To move the money, the charge for the whole lot was 980THB.

I use a very small local US bank with only 5 locations. They don't charge any ATM fees. This is how they stay competitive with the big banks.

Mutuals, Credit Unions and community banks stay competitive in several ways, the most important is that they do not pay government 1$ per transaction but all transactions in 1 day is counted as 1 transaction and they pay 1$ for the whole lot. In return, they don't have all the functions regular bank have.

I know from payment processing: a medium size processing center would see 50,000 cheques per day, each of them constituting a transaction and 50,000$ had to be paid to the government for that day.

Mutuals (even if they happened to have that many transactions in 1 day) would pay only 1$.

Plus, they don't have glitzy offices at Manhattan and expensive media marketing campaigns.

I'm a bit confused by some of your numbers. For your single transaction you say your fees were 17.21 A$. I assume that you withdrew 10,000 baht. The following itemized list is from your original post:

25 Mar 2009 WBC FEE - WITHDRAWAL AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA S3DIP392023097240309 5.00

25 Mar 2009 WITHDRAWAL AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 406.99

25 Mar 2009 MASTERCARD CURRENCY CONVERSION FEE BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 4.07

25 Mar 2009 FEE - FOREIGN CURRENCY TRANS AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 8.14

It appears that you were charged a 20 baht fee, since the THB amount listed is 10020.00 and I don't think ATMs allow 20 baht withdrawals. It also appears that the 5.00 + 4.07 + 8.14 fees that total 17.21 A$ are in addition to the 406.99 A$ withdrawn from your account, so that if your balance at the time of the withdrawal was 1000 A$, the balance after the withdrawal would be (1000 - 406.99) - 17.21 = 575.80. Or are you saying that the currency conversion fee of 4.07 is contained in the 406.99 amount, thus the balance would be (1000 - 406.99) - 13.14 = 579.87?

Even if you only paid a fee of 13.14 A$ for the transaction, that seems to me to be quite a fee to pay to withdrawal 10,000 baht from a Thai ATM.

[torrenova]

After all the years are their still people who keep using outside cards for withdrawals when they live here ? surely not !

On holiday when you are only here once every few years then ok but if you live here and bitch about the cost of a baht bus or the price of a beer, get a grip on finances.

There really is no need to pay these charges.

[donx]

After all the years are their still people who keep using outside cards for withdrawals when they live here ? surely not !

On holiday when you are only here once every few years then ok but if you live here and bitch about the cost of a baht bus or the price of a beer, get a grip on finances.

There really is no need to pay these charges.

I don't live here but I visit on average every other year. As I say in my post above, I provide an outside ATM card to my inlaws so that we can send money to them every month to make our car payment and to provide a little bit of spending money to them since they are retired and poor.

[think_too_mut]

I'm a bit confused by some of your numbers. For your single transaction you say your fees were 17.21 A$. I assume that you withdrew 10,000 baht. The following itemized list is from your original post:

25 Mar 2009 WBC FEE - WITHDRAWAL AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA S3DIP392023097240309 5.00

25 Mar 2009 WITHDRAWAL AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 406.99

25 Mar 2009 MASTERCARD CURRENCY CONVERSION FEE BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 4.07

25 Mar 2009 FEE - FOREIGN CURRENCY TRANS AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 8.14

It appears that you were charged a 20 baht fee, since the THB amount listed is 10020.00 and I don't think ATMs allow 20 baht withdrawals. It also appears that the 5.00 + 4.07 + 8.14 fees that total 17.21 A$ are in addition to the 406.99 A$ withdrawn from your account, so that if your balance at the time of the withdrawal was 1000 A$, the balance after the withdrawal would be (1000 - 406.99) - 17.21 = 575.80. Or are you saying that the currency conversion fee of 4.07 is contained in the 406.99 amount, thus the balance would be (1000 - 406.99) - 13.14 = 579.87?

Even if you only paid a fee of 13.14 A$ for the transaction, that seems to me to be quite a fee to pay to withdrawal 10,000 baht from a Thai ATM.

WBC FEE - WITHDRAWAL AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA 5.00 + CURRENCY CONVERSION FEE BANGKOK THA 4.07 + FEE - FOREIGN CURRENCY TRANS AT O/S ATM BANGKOK 8.14 = 17.21

17.21 are total fees WestPac charged me. "Currency conversion fee" of 4.07 is included.

And 17.21A$ is in addition to 406.99A$.

Those fees are same, regardless how much is withdrawn - 10,000THB or 25,000THB.

It is still less than 30A$ fixed fee for telegraphic transfer (or sending money via the Internet) to a Thai bank account. Then, it gets even worse when Thai bank take their cut. On 20,000THB I sent 1 month ago they took 750B.

And yes, I just noticed 20THB fee. So that thing goes to 100THB from 17th of April?

[thecatman]

And yes, I just noticed 20THB fee. So that thing goes to 100THB from 17th of April?

150Bt from 17th April.

[kiakaha]

After all the years are their still people who keep using outside cards for withdrawals when they live here ? surely not !

Some people have passive income outside thailand(rent, bank interest etc...) and also have zero ATM cash out fee credit/debit cards...thus, a convenient and cheaper way(no fees + you get the internal baht FX rate) than doing a bank transfer to bring funds into thailand.

[thecatman]

Unfortunately, I don't know if there are any non Thai Bankers Association banks in their small province

It's extremely unlikely I'm afraid, the odd one or two possibilities that have been mentioned so far are in Bangkok/Pattaya. They appear to be very few and far between.

[thecatman]

After all the years are their still people who keep using outside cards for withdrawals when they live here ? surely not !

Some people have passive income outside thailand(rent, bank interest etc...) and also have zero ATM cash out fee credit/debit cards...thus, a convenient and cheaper way(no fees + you get the internal baht FX rate) than doing a bank transfer to bring funds into thailand.

Exactly kiakaha, I for example, get rent paid to me for my property in the UK. The funds get paid into my Nationwide account in the UK, and for the past 2 or 3 years I have been able to withdraw these funds at the ATM in Thailand with no charges what so ever, from either the Thai banks or my UK bank.

[OriginalPoster]

After all the years are their still people who keep using outside cards for withdrawals when they live here ? surely not !

Why not? For someone whose overseas bank does not charge any fees on ATM transactions and gives an exchage rate very near to the interbank rate, using an ATM card was previously a very economical way to exhange dollars for Thai Baht.

Edited April 9, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[yabaaaa]

Big deal. Banks are busineses, not public services.

Maybe but from what i see NOT very successful ones and then theres always that nice govt. bailouts available......you know what i think ill start a bank up cant be that difficult, just lend money to anyone if they can pay it back or not!!

[thecatman]

I think I may have found a Thai bank that is not a member of the Thai bankers Association. I'd never heard of them or noticed them before but saw a branch today, with ATM's outside it. It's the GH Bank or GHB. They have a pretty decent website (in english) showing locations of their branches (and therefore their ATM's I would imagine as they have about 70 branches nationwide and 70 ATM's nationwide).

I really don't know anymore about them other than this, but this may well be another option.

[Heng]

The issue with smaller banks, at least IME, is that their networks are often down in regards to Plus/Cirrus connections (despite advertising on their machines that they are on the network). You'll usually get your funds, but the instances where the transaction just hangs there or is one of those 'unable to communicate with network' deals is plenty enough reason to stick with banks that are at least online most of the time, fees or not.

Nowadays I just use K-Bank and BBL atms, or the HSBC atm as mentioned when I happen to be in the area.

[donx]

I'm a bit confused by some of your numbers. For your single transaction you say your fees were 17.21 A$. I assume that you withdrew 10,000 baht. The following itemized list is from your original post:

25 Mar 2009 WBC FEE - WITHDRAWAL AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA S3DIP392023097240309 5.00

25 Mar 2009 WITHDRAWAL AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 406.99

25 Mar 2009 MASTERCARD CURRENCY CONVERSION FEE BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 4.07

25 Mar 2009 FEE - FOREIGN CURRENCY TRANS AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA 10020.00THB 023097240309 8.14

It appears that you were charged a 20 baht fee, since the THB amount listed is 10020.00 and I don't think ATMs allow 20 baht withdrawals. It also appears that the 5.00 + 4.07 + 8.14 fees that total 17.21 A$ are in addition to the 406.99 A$ withdrawn from your account, so that if your balance at the time of the withdrawal was 1000 A$, the balance after the withdrawal would be (1000 - 406.99) - 17.21 = 575.80. Or are you saying that the currency conversion fee of 4.07 is contained in the 406.99 amount, thus the balance would be (1000 - 406.99) - 13.14 = 579.87?

Even if you only paid a fee of 13.14 A$ for the transaction, that seems to me to be quite a fee to pay to withdrawal 10,000 baht from a Thai ATM.

WBC FEE - WITHDRAWAL AT O/S ATM BANGKOK THA 5.00 + CURRENCY CONVERSION FEE BANGKOK THA 4.07 + FEE - FOREIGN CURRENCY TRANS AT O/S ATM BANGKOK 8.14 = 17.21

17.21 are total fees WestPac charged me. "Currency conversion fee" of 4.07 is included.

And 17.21A$ is in addition to 406.99A$.

Those fees are same, regardless how much is withdrawn - 10,000THB or 25,000THB.

It is still less than 30A$ fixed fee for telegraphic transfer (or sending money via the Internet) to a Thai bank account. Then, it gets even worse when Thai bank take their cut. On 20,000THB I sent 1 month ago they took 750B.

And yes, I just noticed 20THB fee. So that thing goes to 100THB from 17th of April?

As thecatman said, the 20 baht fee becomes a 150 baht fee after April 17th.

You said that the "Currency conversion fee" of 4.07 is 1% of the transaction amount. I think this fee varies depending upon how much you withdrawal. If you drew 25,000THB today (assuming that the conversion rate was the same today as it was March 25), then your fee wouldn't be 17.21A$, but much more than that. I agree that the 5.00 fee is fixed and the 20 baht fee is fixed. But it appears that you are paying a 1% fee (4.07) PLUS a 2% fee (8.14). I bet you would end up paying a fee of 5.00 + 10.18 + 20.35 for a total fee of 35.53A$ for a withdrawal of 25,000THB.

If I am correct that the 4.07 represents 1% of the transaction amount and that the 8.14 represents 2% of the transaction amount, and since the 20 baht is included as part of the transaction amount, a withdrawal of 10,000THB after April 17 will make the transaction amount 10150.00THB instead of 10020.00THB. Now your 1% and 2% fees will be slightly more than before.

Let me know if I made a mistake in my calculations anywhere.

[TonySoprano]

The best option is Etrade.

its an atm for your brokerage account, no fees.

[TonySoprano]

thinktoomut can you please just make it simply buddy and say "When I withdraw 10,000 baht today I will pay the following total in aussie dollars. then we can figure out how good your overall rate is. thanks.

[donx]

I think I may have found a Thai bank that is not a member of the Thai bankers Association. I'd never heard of them or noticed them before but saw a branch today, with ATM's outside it. It's the GH Bank or GHB. They have a pretty decent website (in english) showing locations of their branches (and therefore their ATM's I would imagine as they have about 70 branches nationwide and 70 ATM's nationwide).

I really don't know anymore about them other than this, but this may well be another option.

I checked their website and in Phatthalung they have what they call a "Mobile Credit Unit" that is on the 2nd floor of some building and only available on Tuesdays. This won't be an option for my in-laws, but thanks anyways for the information.

[think_too_mut]

You said that the "Currency conversion fee" of 4.07 is 1% of the transaction amount. I think this fee varies depending upon how much you withdrawal. If you drew 25,000THB today (assuming that the conversion rate was the same today as it was March 25), then your fee wouldn't be 17.21A$, but much more than that. I agree that the 5.00 fee is fixed and the 20 baht fee is fixed. But it appears that you are paying a 1% fee (4.07) PLUS a 2% fee (8.14). I bet you would end up paying a fee of 5.00 + 10.18 + 20.35 for a total fee of 35.53A$ for a withdrawal of 25,000THB.

If I am correct that the 4.07 represents 1% of the transaction amount and that the 8.14 represents 2% of the transaction amount, and since the 20 baht is included as part of the transaction amount, a withdrawal of 10,000THB after April 17 will make the transaction amount 10150.00THB instead of 10020.00THB. Now your 1% and 2% fees will be slightly more than before.

Let me know if I made a mistake in my calculations anywhere.

Let's repeat my argument: we are paying fees. Better exchange rate that Westpac gives me is eaten up by those side fees. It is only that they are, however annoying, clearly visible.

Those claiming they pay no fees should show how. I bet they get worse interest rate and that just covers where their banks' cut is.

And my main argument was - why yelling at Thai banks for 150THB fee while our own banks are skinning us already.

It is Thai banks that provide service and equipment, why would they be banned from charging for that?

[GungaDin]

Why oh why does everyone have to fall out and make remarks about other board members?

while thinktoolittle gives off the impression of an exasperated 122 kg man trying to fit into a size m tshirt, i thought all of my posts were clearly light hearted and comedic. plus, he will save money in the future with his new found knowledge, assuming at some point he accepts that he is wrong.

That's the day you will see pigs fly.

[donx]

You said that the "Currency conversion fee" of 4.07 is 1% of the transaction amount. I think this fee varies depending upon how much you withdrawal. If you drew 25,000THB today (assuming that the conversion rate was the same today as it was March 25), then your fee wouldn't be 17.21A$, but much more than that. I agree that the 5.00 fee is fixed and the 20 baht fee is fixed. But it appears that you are paying a 1% fee (4.07) PLUS a 2% fee (8.14). I bet you would end up paying a fee of 5.00 + 10.18 + 20.35 for a total fee of 35.53A$ for a withdrawal of 25,000THB.

If I am correct that the 4.07 represents 1% of the transaction amount and that the 8.14 represents 2% of the transaction amount, and since the 20 baht is included as part of the transaction amount, a withdrawal of 10,000THB after April 17 will make the transaction amount 10150.00THB instead of 10020.00THB. Now your 1% and 2% fees will be slightly more than before.

Let me know if I made a mistake in my calculations anywhere.

Let's repeat my argument: we are paying fees. Better exchange rate that Westpac gives me is eaten up by those side fees. It is only that they are, however annoying, clearly visible.

Those claiming they pay no fees should show how. I bet they get worse interest rate and that just covers where their banks' cut is.

And my main argument was - why yelling at Thai banks for 150THB fee while our own banks are skinning us already.

It is Thai banks that provide service and equipment, why would they be banned from charging for that?

Your argument is flawed in that I showed you an actual instance of the exchange rate I get and it was an even better rate than you got. Plus I'm not charged what appears to be an addition 3% fee plus a 5.00A$ plus 20THB fee which will soon become a 150THB fee. I only get charge a fixed 1US$ ATM network transaction fee. If you don't do many ATM withdrawals a year then I agree it isn't anything to worry about. But if you have regular ATM withdrawal, then it may be worth your while to investigate other alternatives. Granted, these may not be available from Australian banks so your options may be limited.

Just because you don't seem to mind spending a lot of money on bank fees doesn't mean others like TonySoprano and I have to be content with paying them. There are alternatives for us and we are happy that they exist. And now we are looking for ways around the new foreign ATM fee of 150THB.

I'm upset by the new fee because it is over 4 times the 1US$ fee I currently pay.

[JimGant]

...The exchange rate is good IMHO. For example, they withdrew 10,000 baht on March 31 and the amount withdrawn in the US (excluding the fee which usually shows up a day later) was $285.79 which is an exchange rate of 34.99 baht/$. Using the baht exchange rate information from Thai Visa, you will see an exchange rate for that day of 35.185.

Yes, but look at the Thai Visa exchange rates for the days before and after -- it's 35.52 both days, which just happens to also be the BOT interbank exchange rate (IER) for 31 March. So, methinks the TV rate for 31 March is an aberration/mistake.

And it's the IER that comes the closest to the wholesale rate your exchange network (most likely Cirrus or Visa) gets for your transactions. It's not your issuing bank, nor the dispensing bank, that establishes exchange rates, at least when the major exchange networks are involved.

And, yes, Cirrus and Visa charge a (at least) 1% foreign transaction fee, which most issuing banks pass on (one notable exception:Capital One). Many issuing banks add further percentages, plus a fixed per transaction fee for withdrawals at "foreign" ATM machines.

Looking at your numbers, 34.99/35.52 = 98.5, it appears you paid the network foreign transaction fee of 1% -- plus another .5% fee of some form or shape. Not surprising, as my bank (USAA Fed Savings), when I pushed them hard enough for definitive ATM costs, advised that Cirrus had recently added another .8% to their already 1% fee. USAA claimed none of this went to them (sniff), but went to help cover payment to the dispensing (ATM) bank. Well, ok. ATM dispensers have to get paid somehow -- and getting part of the "spread" in percentage form from Visa or Cirrus networks is how it's currently been done. Now, I guess, a fixed fee will further enhance coffers. (Credit charges are a whole different ballgame. Selling marked-up merchandise, and paying 2-3% to the networks -- by the merchant, not consumer -- is a lot different than 'selling' fungible cash at instant exchange rates at ATM machines.)

I only get charge a fixed 1US$ ATM network transaction fee.

Plus, it appears, an additional 1.5% of the prevailing wholesale exchange rate of your network.

But, that's better than many are doing. Yeah, if you wire a substantial amount, you can amortize the stiff wire fee to reflect an insignificant cost. And at some number, the slightly less Telex rate for wires, plus fees, trumps ATM transactions, with their slightly better IER rates, but (sometimes) higher fees.

But, except for when real rip off fees exist -- oftentimes hidden -- it's all kind of a toss up as to which way to go. Wiring money now, if the baht further declines, is not good, and supports using your farang bank account's ATM feature (again, assuming their fee structure is competitive). Strengthening baht? Wire now.

Not really worth worrying about, however, unless you're really counting your nickels. In which case, you're cutting it too close to live comfortably.

[thecatman]

Let's repeat my argument: we are paying fees. Better exchange rate that Westpac gives me is eaten up by those side fees. It is only that they are, however annoying, clearly visible.

Those claiming they pay no fees should show how. I bet they get worse interest rate and that just covers where their banks' cut is.

And my main argument was - why yelling at Thai banks for 150THB fee while our own banks are skinning us already.

It is Thai banks that provide service and equipment, why would they be banned from charging for that?

think_too_mut, I currently do not pay any bank charges what so ever on withdrawals from my UK account in Thailand. I'm with the Nationwide Building Society and they offer free withdrawals abroard and have done for the past few years. (although a 1% charge is being introduced on 01/06/09).

On 7th April I withdrew 15,000 Bt at the exchange rate of 52.199, very favourable, I'm sure you'll agree. In english pounds the amount withdrawn was = to 287.36 so I'll leave you to do the math if you so wish to check if there are any extra charges thrown in here (I assure you, there are not.)

52.199 X 287.36 = 15,000.

I used Kasikorn bank's ATM so no charges there either. It was, and has been for a long time for me, a totally free withdrawal abroad on a foreign card.

[donx]

...The exchange rate is good IMHO. For example, they withdrew 10,000 baht on March 31 and the amount withdrawn in the US (excluding the fee which usually shows up a day later) was $285.79 which is an exchange rate of 34.99 baht/$. Using the baht exchange rate information from Thai Visa, you will see an exchange rate for that day of 35.185.

Yes, but look at the Thai Visa exchange rates for the days before and after -- it's 35.52 both days, which just happens to also be the BOT interbank exchange rate (IER) for 31 March. So, methinks the TV rate for 31 March is an aberration/mistake.

And it's the IER that comes the closest to the wholesale rate your exchange network (most likely Cirrus or Visa) gets for your transactions. It's not your issuing bank, nor the dispensing bank, that establishes exchange rates, at least when the major exchange networks are involved.

And, yes, Cirrus and Visa charge a (at least) 1% foreign transaction fee, which most issuing banks pass on (one notable exception:Capital One). Many issuing banks add further percentages, plus a fixed per transaction fee for withdrawals at "foreign" ATM machines.

Looking at your numbers, 34.99/35.52 = 98.5, it appears you paid the network foreign transaction fee of 1% -- plus another .5% fee of some form or shape. Not surprising, as my bank (USAA Fed Savings), when I pushed them hard enough for definitive ATM costs, advised that Cirrus had recently added another .8% to their already 1% fee. USAA claimed none of this went to them (sniff), but went to help cover payment to the dispensing (ATM) bank. Well, ok. ATM dispensers have to get paid somehow -- and getting part of the "spread" in percentage form from Visa or Cirrus networks is how it's currently been done. Now, I guess, a fixed fee will further enhance coffers. (Credit charges are a whole different ballgame. Selling marked-up merchandise, and paying 2-3% to the networks -- by the merchant, not consumer -- is a lot different than 'selling' fungible cash at instant exchange rates at ATM machines.)

I only get charge a fixed 1US$ ATM network transaction fee.

Plus, it appears, an additional 1.5% of the prevailing wholesale exchange rate of your network.

But, that's better than many are doing. Yeah, if you wire a substantial amount, you can amortize the stiff wire fee to reflect an insignificant cost. And at some number, the slightly less Telex rate for wires, plus fees, trumps ATM transactions, with their slightly better IER rates, but (sometimes) higher fees.

But, except for when real rip off fees exist -- oftentimes hidden -- it's all kind of a toss up as to which way to go. Wiring money now, if the baht further declines, is not good, and supports using your farang bank account's ATM feature (again, assuming their fee structure is competitive). Strengthening baht? Wire now.

Not really worth worrying about, however, unless you're really counting your nickels. In which case, you're cutting it too close to live comfortably.

JimGant,

Great post. I agree with you that the rate posted by Thai Visa on March 31 is probably an aberration/mistake. I googled "BOT interbank exchange rate" and I can see where you got the exchange rate of 35.52 for March 31.

Unfortunately, you need to be more careful with your math. I underlined your misstake above. The correct equation is:

34.99/35.52 = 0.985 so the fee is really only 1%, not 1.5% as you suggest above.

So I do probably pay a 1US$ fee plus a 1% (not 1.5%) exchange rate fee which is comparable IMHO to the exchange rate fee you pay if you exchange cash at any bank. Do you agree?

[donx]

Let's repeat my argument: we are paying fees. Better exchange rate that Westpac gives me is eaten up by those side fees. It is only that they are, however annoying, clearly visible.

Those claiming they pay no fees should show how. I bet they get worse interest rate and that just covers where their banks' cut is.

And my main argument was - why yelling at Thai banks for 150THB fee while our own banks are skinning us already.

It is Thai banks that provide service and equipment, why would they be banned from charging for that?

think_too_mut, I currently do not pay any bank charges what so ever on withdrawals from my UK account in Thailand. I'm with the Nationwide Building Society and they offer free withdrawals abroard and have done for the past few years. (although a 1% charge is being introduced on 01/06/09).

On 7th April I withdrew 15,000 Bt at the exchange rate of 52.199, very favourable, I'm sure you'll agree. In english pounds the amount withdrawn was = to 287.36 so I'll leave you to do the math if you so wish to check if there are any extra charges thrown in here (I assure you, there are not.)

52.199 X 287.36 = 15,000.

I used Kasikorn bank's ATM so no charges there either. It was, and has been for a long time for me, a totally free withdrawal abroad on a foreign card.

I think JimGant would still claim that you are paying a 0.5% - 1% fee right now as he showed me I was. I can only see the IER for baht/US$ at the BOT website so I can't check the numbers.

Nevertheless I agree that it is either a completely fee free withdrawal or as close to a fee free withdrawal as anyone can get.

[PeaceBlondie]

I have used Wells Fargo Bank since 1990. They charge no monthly fee because all my pensions are deposited directly, electronically. They charge me US$5 at a very favorable exchange rate, for ATM withdrawals anywhere in Thailand, at 25,000 baht per time. . I will now have 450 or 600 baht more to pay for ATM withdrawals. Not enough to make me change banks.