The Term "Farang"

[Jingthing]

Thank god im a farang.

Interesting. Sounds like something a white supremacist (with low self esteem) would say.

Or a religious nut with a low IQ.

Well I can think of worse things to be in the land of Tais.

How about ethnic Laotian, Burmese, Cambodian, Vietnamese, or even a Rohingya refugee.

How about one of the many northern hill people, or Mon, mai chai khon Thai roi percent chai mai?

For those easily offended or of a sensitive disposition how would you rather be referred to, man or meung?

Fair point. It is clear Thailand has serious issues dealing with their minority groups. As said before, the consciousness of being a multicultural society doesn't exist here.

[barky]

Yet another "done to death" topic.

Yes, another "why are we so dam_n superior to those people"........and "Why don't they want to be like us" thread. It's the body and soul of Thai-related expat forums.

Yes, I agree with you both this little gem of an item is the staple of TV. In the last 6 to 12 months or so I have tended not to bother opening these threads let alone make a comment. But, here I am. At the moment I have nothing to do while waiting to go to a dentist appointment. That's my excuse.

Anyway, I and it seems most other westeners have developed an aversion to the word. It seems thesedays, as soon as I hear the word my eyes start rolling and I want out or I just switch off.

Yes I know it's only a word. Yes I know some Thais don't mean to be derogitory , rude and insensitive. But many do and don't care that they are.

The majority of Thais don't even consider whether their usage of it can, and is often in a derogitory, racist form and meaning.

You could argue that maybe Thais are just insensitive, careless and racist by nature, but are so ignorant on this, and maybe other matters, that they don't recognise it.

I realise that the word can be used perfectly correctly in context. But, unfortunately it, more often than not ,isn't. And, it tends to become tedious to try to figure out whether the Thai speaker was just being ignorant and uncaring or just plain racist.

I'm happy to say that the Thai company I generally keep don't tend to use the word at all. Maybe they've figured out that many westeners don't like it, so refrain.

Clearly the main reason this topic comes up so often is because probably the majority of westeners have grown to just plain hate the sound of the word outright no matter whether it is delivered in context and non-racist or in a put-down, racist degoritory fashion..

However, I can assure those who don't like it, in the main, the Thais are not about to consider your feelings on the matter you are a farang here in Thailand and overseas in your home country and that's that.

However I am equally sure that if you went around in your home country in the west calling Thais Asian all the time you talked to or about them, they would object vehemently and be awarded recompence.

[Deeral]

"Jingthing, on 2010-07-31 20:06, said:The origin is originally from the ARABIC. Nothing to do with French colonialism in S.E. Asia. That's a total wive's tale. If Thais believe that, consider that most believe in ghosts and that their education is substandard. BTW, in Malay, an area heavily influenced by the Arab world and never colonized by the French either, the word is ferenggi.

Im not convinced - is there a learned paper on this?

[lazygourmet]

"Jingthing, on 2010-07-31 20:06, said:The origin is originally from the ARABIC. Nothing to do with French colonialism in S.E. Asia. That's a total wive's tale. If Thais believe that, consider that most believe in ghosts and that their education is substandard. BTW, in Malay, an area heavily influenced by the Arab world and never colonized by the French either, the word is ferenggi.

Im not convinced - is there a learned paper on this?

Ferenggi... Yes, Khun Jingthing is correct, but it's a Persian word... not Arabic.

Persian were the first "aliens" either on Malay, Indonesian and Thai shores.

And if you are not convinced, libraries are made for you... unless you have either a vision or a comprehension problem...

[Kwasaki]

The origin is originally from the ARABIC. Nothing to do with French colonialism in S.E. Asia. That's a total wive's tale. If Thais believe that, consider that most believe in ghosts and that their education is substandard. BTW, in Malay, an area heavily influenced by the Arab world and never colonized by the French either, the word is ferenggi.

Ah, Ferenggi - obviously taken from Star Trek!

I was right after all the Ferenggi are the French in the future, they may of made the patterns in the corn fields around the world, so watch out for the patterns in the rice fields, maybe only the ones with the funds from Farangs.

[zzaa09]

It is clear Thailand has serious issues dealing with their minority groups. As said before, the consciousness of being a multicultural society doesn't exist here.

Where in the world might you not find such issues of classism and minority issues at the ready?

[zzaa09]

Persian were the first "aliens" either on Malay, Indonesian and Thai shores.

Rather enlightening that most forget a truer historiography unless it's been Eurocentrically santized.

[Jingthing]

It is clear Thailand has serious issues dealing with their minority groups. As said before, the consciousness of being a multicultural society doesn't exist here.

Where in the world might you not find such issues of classism and minority issues at the ready?

In countries that make a real effort to integrate their minorities. I can't even believe you asked that question, what's your angle anyway? Just check how Thais have treated the hill tribe people and the trouble they have getting Thai IDs.

[Jingthing]

My understanding is a farang type word started with the Arabs, and then the Persians picked it up, so based on that the original origin is Arabic. In any case, given how widespread farang similar words are in different parts of the world that have nothing to do with modern French colonialism, the more modern French colonial theory just doesn't cut the mustard.

[zzaa09]

It is clear Thailand has serious issues dealing with their minority groups. As said before, the consciousness of being a multicultural society doesn't exist here.

Where in the world might you not find such issues of classism and minority issues at the ready?

In countries that make a real effort to integrate their minorities. I can't even believe you asked that question, what's your angle anyway? Just check how Thais have treated the hill tribe people and the trouble they have getting Thai IDs.

No society has a enlightened history as to it's minority groups. In fact.....such history is quite ugly - even swept under the carpet.

[Jingthing]

It is clear Thailand has serious issues dealing with their minority groups. As said before, the consciousness of being a multicultural society doesn't exist here.

Where in the world might you not find such issues of classism and minority issues at the ready?

In countries that make a real effort to integrate their minorities. I can't even believe you asked that question, what's your angle anyway? Just check how Thais have treated the hill tribe people and the trouble they have getting Thai IDs.

No society has a enlightened history as to it's minority groups. In fact.....such history is quite ugly - even swept under the carpet.

I am clearly talking about NOW, sir. I agree about dark histories though, but again, many countries have progressed massively in this regard. Thailand has not.

[zzaa09]

My understanding is a farang type word started with the Arabs, and then the Persians picked it up, so based on that the original origin is Arabic. In any case, given how widespread farang similar words are in different parts of the world that have nothing to do with modern French colonialism, the more modern French colonial theory just doesn't cut the mustard.

But then remember, the Semitic peoples were colonizing long before Europeans play their small part in world history interpretations.The accepted lingua franca throughout the broader civilised worlds and trading routes was Arabic - Malay and Chinese to a lesser degree.

Edited August 2, 2010 by zzaa09

[Jingthing]

My understanding is a farang type word started with the Arabs, and then the Persians picked it up, so based on that the original origin is Arabic. In any case, given how widespread farang similar words are in different parts of the world that have nothing to do with modern French colonialism, the more modern French colonial theory just doesn't cut the mustard.

But then remember, the Semitic peoples were colonizing long before Europeans play their small part in world history interpretations.

Persians aren't semites. Yes, lots of different groups were into expansion historically. No argument there, don't forget Genghis Khan. French Indochina is yesterday compared to most of world history.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Jingthing

[zzaa09]

Persians aren't semites.

Actually, they are classified as being of the larger Semitic family. Some might even argue that the broader region was influenced through ancient Sanskrit and Vedic ideals. Not set in stone, of course - as most Anthropological theories are ever changing.

[Jingthing]

Persians aren't semites.

Actually, they are classified as being of the larger Semitic family. Some might even argue that the broader region was influenced through ancient Sanskrit and Vedic ideals. Not set in stone, of course - as most Anthropological theories are ever changing.

I think you're wrong. Only Arabs and Jews are semites. Persians are not Arabs. In any case, let's drop it, this is totally off topic. Agree to disagree on this one. Next ...

[Deeral]

If I want to know the origins of a word in the English language, I start by going to one of the dictionaries - usually the SOED.

I can then take this on from there.

The Thai language has for better or worse an "official" department that defines the language - the "Royal institute"? - I assume that they indicate the ir thoughts on the origins of the word "farang" - has anyone got a translation of this?

It wouldn't of course necessarily put the question to bed, but it would contain some provenance.

[AmeriThai]

In my opinion, regardless of the origin of the word "farang", the current use of the word can sometimes be meant as an insulting derogatory term, but is most generally used as a simple convenient identification term much in the same sense that the word "caucasian" is used. Is there an alternate term that's better?

How can it be a derogatory work or term?

If a Thai says "Farang keenok", the Thai is not being nice for sure. ie. "you bird shit farang". But, Farang is still not a derogatory word, the bird shit adjective is! The use of farang was identifying a or the person.

Can someone enlighten me as to where in the Thai language it is used as a derogatory word?????????????????????

Even if you don't speak Thai, farang bad, farang smelly, farang bad month, farang whatever, it still is only in reference to a person being identified by looks, nothing else. An in these cases is used in place of better knowledge of country of origin or the individuals name!

Thanks for the correction. You're quite right. The word "farang" can be used in conjunction with other words aimed at being an insult. But the word itself is simply a word generally used to identify caucasions, which was the point I made. I've been referred to as a farang, usually by people who don't know me. I can't speak for anyone else, but in my own experience, once Thais do get to know me and know where I'm from, then I'm usually considered as a "khon amerigan". Even then it's not unusual for those who know me refer to me as a farang when speaking to other Thais. I think the word "farang" is just easier for Thais to use because it's a lot more common. I've never come across any Thais who thought the word is an insult. Interestingly though, I can't say I've ever heard of a similar identifying word used to generally describe Asians. The exception being if they know the individual or there are some other characteristics, then a specific Asian may well be called "khon jeen", "khon yippon", "khon gowlee", "khon lao", etc. (as examples), or whatever country they're originally from or descended from.

Like you, I'm not at all clear as to why some people consider the word "farang" to be an insulting word. Maybe they just don't like being characterized. Or maybe they just don't like the way Thais do things. You've heard people who regularly complain about Thais. Then too, it may be a lack of understanding or interest. As I also stated, is there an alternate term that's better to use? Maybe "khon peu khao"? I'm not so sure that would necessarily be satisfactory to some people either.

[Loz]

you white folk, you don't half tickle me.

Black folk get called farang just as much as you special white folks. And it is just a derogatory. Face it, they just don't rate you as highly as an asian.

[Deeral]

you white folk, you don't half tickle me.

Black folk get called farang just as much as you special white folks. And it is just a derogatory. Face it, they just don't rate you as highly as an asian.

Afro-americans etc are often called Farang, farang Dam.

[Deeral]

I don't profess to know the origins but here's why I prefer the “French” origin rather than the “farsi” or Arabic or any other language..............

The words that appear in many languages e.g. African, Asian and Arabic all have their roots in Frank – the same roots as the word Francais anyway....but …..I suspect that the word isn't that old in Thai

It has been suggested that there would have needed to be a massive French presence – this is not the only way of how words come into play. Words come into language from individuals, popular usage, books and literature, contact with other nations.

Just because the Persian is “older” just doesn't convince me.

The word Francais or “Frank” has the same origins as the old Arabic and Persian words, anyway.

So what I would really like to know is how this word came into use in Thailand Malaysia and Cambodia – or in the S.E. Asia region.....and crucially when – if it is “modern” then it could have come with the advent of Europeans – if it is old then it could have come with it's Indo/Arabic origins.

However as it refers in particular to WESTERN foreigners I like to think that it is a relatively recent addition to the language (last 4-500 years).

A good way to establish this is to find the word written down in old scripts – which may or may not have already been done.

Did it come directly from the Arabic Iranian or India was it a response to the Europeans that started to trade in this area in and around 400 years ago?

Would the word have been needed at all before Westerners showed up?

[jayjayjayjay]

In my opinion, regardless of the origin of the word "farang", the current use of the word can sometimes be meant as an insulting derogatory term, but is most generally used as a simple convenient identification term much in the same sense that the word "caucasian" is used. Is there an alternate term that's better?

How can it be a derogatory work or term?

If a Thai says "Farang keenok", the Thai is not being nice for sure. ie. "you bird shit farang". But, Farang is still not a derogatory word, the bird shit adjective is! The use of farang was identifying a or the person.

Can someone enlighten me as to where in the Thai language it is used as a derogatory word?????????????????????

Even if you don't speak Thai, farang bad, farang smelly, farang bad month, farang whatever, it still is only in reference to a person being identified by looks, nothing else. An in these cases is used in place of better knowledge of country of origin or the individuals name!

Thanks for the correction. You're quite right. The word "farang" can be used in conjunction with other words aimed at being an insult. But the word itself is simply a word generally used to identify caucasions, which was the point I made. I've been referred to as a farang, usually by people who don't know me. I can't speak for anyone else, but in my own experience, once Thais do get to know me and know where I'm from, then I'm usually considered as a "khon amerigan". Even then it's not unusual for those who know me refer to me as a farang when speaking to other Thais. I think the word "farang" is just easier for Thais to use because it's a lot more common. I've never come across any Thais who thought the word is an insult. Interestingly though, I can't say I've ever heard of a similar identifying word used to generally describe Asians. The exception being if they know the individual or there are some other characteristics, then a specific Asian may well be called "khon jeen", "khon yippon", "khon gowlee", "khon lao", etc. (as examples), or whatever country they're originally from or descended from.

Like you, I'm not at all clear as to why some people consider the word "farang" to be an insulting word. Maybe they just don't like being characterized. Or maybe they just don't like the way Thais do things. You've heard people who regularly complain about Thais. Then too, it may be a lack of understanding or interest. As I also stated, is there an alternate term that's better to use? Maybe "khon peu khao"? I'm not so sure that would necessarily be satisfactory to some people either.

We are on the same page AmeriThai, or should that be Khun AmeriThai. You have pointed out the main point, and that is Thais of all social strata will use the word farang in place of having a better knowledge of who you are at the time. Those at a service center may address you on entering their business premises as "Khun" only. But once they go out to the back office, someone might be asked to address the problem with a given customer, in reference to you they would say "the farang". Purely because it identifies which of the customers behind the counter. Surprisingly enough, Chinese get called jeen without the "khun" prefix quite often, as do the other Asian persons. The one that I know myself is not derogatory is Kaak for Indian. However, I risk being racist in saying a large percentage of Thais don't like Indian people perse, not something I approve off, but that does not make Kaak a derogatory word anymore than farang is. There is possibly a derogatory connotation with Luk Jeck, "Chines kid", but I can not justify this not knowing the background. Someones investigation would be interesting, however I think it just falls into the same catagory as farang, jeen, yipoon, kaak, etc.

More so than the misunderstanding with being addressed as farang, the one I find funny is "you, you". Many westerners find this offensive, but in fact it is an attempt at being quite polite. Those with little English skills are trying to say, "khun, khun" which in Thai is very polite. The simple grade 4 English translation is "you, you" which does not go down so good.

Good to see you understanding and appreciating the Thai language, one that we have much to learn from.