Tourist Deaths In Chiang Mai Just A ‘Coincidence’

[Payboy]

number 1 aint in charge though is he and we all know who number one really is.

Oh no! Couldn't possibly be number 2 could it? Like Cheney & Dubya.

[tigermonkey]

I was a cop, a detective at that, and I've met a fair share of Thai "detectives" in the last few years.Spent hours talking with them.

Simply put, they generally possess a total lack of even rudimentary training and couldn't detect an elephant in a life raft.

So, in many cases, it's not that they are "covering something up," it's that they lack the skills, techniques, experience and facilities to uncover anything. Therefore it is easier to claim it a coincidence than to admit they are stymied, and are clueless as to what to do next.

It's more the old "saving face" thing than mai pen rai.

And, that would take a lot of effort on their part, too...to uncover the truth.

I've never been a detective, athough I've known a few -- but after decades of medical research work, I've learned something about deductive reasoning and probability which are the detective's two greatest tools.

If you apply deductive reasoning, lateral thinking and probability analysis to the deaths, what are the conclusions ? If you want to blame the hotel, after this process, you can only conclude "coincidence". I am sure that the Chiang Mai police did not go this far, but the conclusion is reasonable.

We must look elsewhere for for some commonality and possible cause. We need a fast acting toxic agent that acts on heart tissue. Very few agents fit this description except cyanide. It needs to be available to the hotel guests and perhaps also to the other woman who died in January. It needs to be distributed over a period of time encompassing the deaths. What do all of these people have in common ?

The analysis that I have run is far from exhaustive and comprehensive, but it yielded only one answer -- bottled drinking water. It is well known that bottled drinking water companies often use mild solutions of cyanide for sterilization of equipment. If the solution is made too strong and the first stream from the equipment is accidentally bottled instead of being discarded, you have a potential killer.

Now the only question is whether the Downtown Inn distributes bottled water to its guests, and what is the source of the water ? Only a reasonable hypothesis at this point, but certainly better than " coincidence".

Edited March 9, 2011 by tigermonkey

[Steely Dan]

Wow 180 people reading this topic, we probably only need another 10,000 before any mud sticks.

[elcent]

I posted a link here last night which I found and where Mujahiddens provide info of how to make poison at home. This post got understandably deleted here and I'm not neccessarily suspecting radical Islam. It looks more like the hotel chain got targeted though.

To my understanding it was poison and there are many ways to commit that, most likeley through food or applid on the skin as it was described on that website. Many more tests have to be done. Hairs and fingernails are crucial to find traces.

If it was getting into the body via skin it could have been a shampoo or toothcream many hotels provide(this comes closest to the description of how the deaths occured, also the timing).. Easy to take out samples of shamppo and toothcreams and refill it. It's not observed well enough either. Otrherwise via coffee. I doubt that sufficient evidence was collected.

Edited March 9, 2011 by elcent

[Oberkommando]

After such along time here, and given ten fold, to what i,ve received, at my old age I'm even now contemplating leaving the sinking,(stinking ship). I did actually believe I would be the last one to think of flitting. Now I,m afraid that the advantages are now are evaporating fast, corruption is not really the whole thing it's getting a very sick society. full stop.

Absolutely this.

More and more people finding out what they are really all about. :jap:

[SICHONSTEVE]

I posted a link here last night which I found and where Mujahiddens provide info of how to make poison at home. This post got understandably deleted here and I'm not neccessarily suspecting radical Islam. It looks more like the hotel chain got targeted though.

To my understanding it was poison and there are many ways to commit that, most likeley through food or applid on the skin as it was described on that website. Many more tests have to be done. Hairs and fingernails are crucial to find traces.

If it was getting into the body via skin it could have been a shampoo or toothcream many hotels provide(this comes closest to the description of how the deaths occured, also the timing).. Easy to take out samples of shamppo and toothcreams and refill it. It's not observed well enough either. Otrherwise via coffee. I doubt that sufficient evidence was collected.

I think it's time to leave this forum!!! It's starting to do my head in as it's getting crazier and crazier!!! What with all sorts of poisoning agents from bottled water to toothpaste and wacky conspiracy theories....I can't take any more!!!! .

[SICHONSTEVE]

Statistically, there is a connection with Downtown inn and the deaths. The independent variable is X used to test against Y, dependent variable from my knowledge. one of the independent variables, Xs is Downtown Inn. They must be clear about the connection with Downtown Inn first before move on to other independent variables then.

What??????

[Methuselah]

Perhaps I'm being a bit generous,but I am relatively confident that Thailand possesses personnel qualified to diagnose the causes of the deaths.From the medical personnel to the senior police there would be few people that would not realise the significance and seriousness of the deaths.

Many theories as to the cause of these deaths have been presented in this forum,but there is almost unanimity that they were accidental in nature.In caravan communities similar deaths occur,almost invariably due to a gas leak in faulty plumbing or engineering.

My premise is that the cause of the deaths has already been established by the authorities and hopefully corrected.

The problem lies with the loss of face to the hotel owners,the tourism industry and percieved reputation of Thailand.

Hence the totally unacceptable,to foreigners,diagnosis of co-incidence.No eggs on anybody's chin,no litigation and no loss of face.

TIT!

[elcent]

I posted a link here last night which I found and where Mujahiddens provide info of how to make poison at home. This post got understandably deleted here and I'm not neccessarily suspecting radical Islam. It looks more like the hotel chain got targeted though.

To my understanding it was poison and there are many ways to commit that, most likeley through food or applid on the skin as it was described on that website. Many more tests have to be done. Hairs and fingernails are crucial to find traces.

If it was getting into the body via skin it could have been a shampoo or toothcream many hotels provide(this comes closest to the description of how the deaths occured, also the timing).. Easy to take out samples of shamppo and toothcreams and refill it. It's not observed well enough either. Otrherwise via coffee. I doubt that sufficient evidence was collected.

I think it's time to leave this forum!!! It's starting to do my head in as it's getting crazier and crazier!!! What with all sorts of poisoning agents from bottled water to toothpaste and wacky conspiracy theories....I can't take any more!!!! .

You're freee to leave.

I have saved screenshots from this site in question and alarmed some relevant authorities. It could be possible that the site's and relatting sites are down by now.

Anyway, you're welcome to do your homework and don't hang around at forums.

There's still a hint and screenshot at washingtonpost http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2005/08/05/GR2005080501187.html

[TimMcLaughlin]

unbelievable! Please Thai police, do not cover this up! How can you even pretend this is a coincidence? Perhaps I should spend my tourist dollars elsewhere.

[elcent]

unfortunately I still can find sites where they make it for download in PDF format. Some site's are down, but not enough yet.

[doggie888888]

Let's see... trying to calculate the odds that all these deaths in the same hotel are just "coincidence"

Working... working... working....

Well, I'd post the number result here... one chance out of ..... (just fill up the entire rest of the page with numbers....)

One in gadzillionmillionbillionzillions...the Thai word for it is "coincidence".

[softgeorge]

Be interesting to see if the bodies of the British couple are repatriated rather than cremated in LOS. Under English law an inquest would then have to be held. I think the coroner would raise an eyebrow at this particular "coincidence" and order another autopsy. Even with the passage of time there could be some interesting results emerging.

It would be nice to think so. Do not be suprised to read in a couple of days time, that they have been cremated already.

The British Embassy should have stepped in from the very beginning. Sadly that would have meant doing their job. Just like during the troubles last year. They shut up shop.

I do so hope that the British media pick up on this and really go for it. Expose the corruption of the Thai authorities, for ehat they really are and the British Embassy, for once again just sitting on their a-ses and pandering to the Thai government wishes.

Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't thailand need authority from family before they simply cremate a farang who died from coincidence?

[Steely Dan]

Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't thailand need authority from family before they simply cremate a farang who died from coincidence?

Not if they were cremated by accident, all cremated by accident,

P.S If this was an act of sabotage/revenge on the hotel owners probably safer to avoid the entire hotel chain.

[lannarebirth]

Perhaps I'm being a bit generous,but I am relatively confident that Thailand possesses personnel qualified to diagnose the causes of the deaths.From the medical personnel to the senior police there would be few people that would not realise the significance and seriousness of the deaths.

Many theories as to the cause of these deaths have been presented in this forum,but there is almost unanimity that they were accidental in nature.In caravan communities similar deaths occur,almost invariably due to a gas leak in faulty plumbing or engineering.

My premise is that the cause of the deaths has already been established by the authorities and hopefully corrected.

The problem lies with the loss of face to the hotel owners,the tourism industry and percieved reputation of Thailand.

Hence the totally unacceptable,to foreigners,diagnosis of co-incidence.No eggs on anybody's chin,no litigation and no loss of face.

TIT!

Not to mention the laying of criminal charges for any intentional or negligence based harm done. Oh, and there's the compensation to be considered.

[Macmundi]

Downtown INN Downtown HOTEL, are they the same death trap?

[doggie888888]

Downtown INN Downtown HOTEL, are they the same death trap?

Don't think too much...it's another coincidence!

Edited March 9, 2011 by doggie888888

[swerver]

I was a cop, a detective at that, and I've met a fair share of Thai "detectives" in the last few years.Spent hours talking with them.

Simply put, they generally possess a total lack of even rudimentary training and couldn't detect an elephant in a life raft.

So, in many cases, it's not that they are "covering something up," it's that they lack the skills, techniques, experience and facilities to uncover anything. Therefore it is easier to claim it a coincidence than to admit they are stymied, and are clueless as to what to do next.

It's more the old "saving face" thing than mai pen rai.

Without even speaking to any so called detective, i have to agree with you.

I do not think there even is a police academy or detective school, i do not think they have forensic labs, if they do, i doubt its well equipped or even equipped at all(just look at police stations and police vehicles, including bikes)

Autopsy cost money(which again they do not have or do not want to spend) and again may not have properly trained staff, just look at public hospitals, some docs can not even diagnose appendix.

So its no alternative but to declare every death as suicide or accident, unless its so clear, that they simply can not make such a statement, but then the killers are hardly every found,unless police is tipped off

Without even speaking to any so called detective, I have to agree with you.

I do not think there even is a police academy or detective school, I do not think they have forensic labs, if they do, I doubt its well equipped or even equipped at all (just look at police stations and police vehicles, including bikes)…

Or for that matter the Fire Engines. I cannot call it Fire Department because the establishing of a Fire Department the Police Department vehemently objected, so the Fire Department creating did die on the vine.

Back to not having the equipment:

More often than not they do have the equipment and you will see them using it. But with their child mentality, like children in many other countries, the novelty wears off very quickly and it is on to the next new thing or their favorite pastime, sleeping. Good example in the Pattaya area is the speed camera. For a couple weeks the toy was in favor, but for the past couple months I have not seen it in use anymore. Like about a year ago when they got a new Radar Speed Gun. I did see it used a couple times and since then (about a year ago) have not seen it anymore.

[Lizard2010]

What about the 5th Death.

American Mariam Soraya Vorster, a 33-year-old from Seattle working as a guide in Chiang Mai, died on January 11 - just over three weeks before 23-year-old Sarah died.

[sbk]

One absolutely ridiculous OTT post has been deleted. Do not repost that kind of ridiculous trollish thing again

[webfact]

UPDATE

Governor reports on deaths of 4 guests at local hotel

By Phitsanu Thepthong

Chiang Mai Governor ML Panadda Diskul reports on the deaths of four people in a local hotel

Chiang Mai authorities are still working urgently on the investigation of the deaths of four people at the Downtown Inn Hotel near the Night Bazaar last month it was reported at a press conference. In three separate cases a Thai tourist guide, a New Zealand student and a British couple all died at the same hotel within days of each other.

Chiang Mai Governor M.L. Panadda Diskul reported that samples are being sent to the U.S. and Japan for further investigation, especially in the case of the New Zealand girl, Sarah Carter, originally reported as food poisoning.

The Provincial Public Health Office, the Office of Epidemiology, the Communicable Disease Control and Prevention Center, Maharaj Nakhon Chiang Mai Hospital, the Institute for Forensic Medicine, forensic police and Chiang Mai Provincial Police are all involved in the cases.

Thai authorities said the cause of death in two cases was still not clear; Mrs. Waraporn Yinghasawanont, 47, a Thai tour guide who checked in and stayed at the hotel February 2. After sightseeing tours to Doi Suthep the previous day, she was found dead in the morning of February 3 in front of the bathroom in her hotel room. Doctors reported that she had asthma and Pol. Col. Montri Sampunnanont, the Deputy Chiang Mai Provincial Police Commander told the Chiang Mai Mail that she had been seen with labored breathing and that might be the cause of her death.

However, Dr. Paskorn Arkarasewee, the Director of the Office of Epidemiology said the real cause of the death of the guide Mrs. Waraporn had not been determined and that the cause of death of Sarah Carter, the New Zealand tourist, was still unclear.

A Chiang Mai Muang District Police said that Ms. Sarah Katherine Carter, 23, a student from New Zealand traveled from Phuket to Chiang Mai and checked in to the hotel on February 2 with two friends. On February 3 they were found seriously ill with vomiting and nausea so the hotel staff called an ambulance to take them the hospital for treatment where, on February 6, Sarah Carter died. The other two girls also ill, eventually recovered and returned home.

Dr. Derek Bunnachak of the Medical Faculty of Maharaj Nakhon Chiang Mai Hospital told Chiang Mai Mail that bacteria might be a cause of food poisoning. Dr. Pasakorn of the Epidemiology Office said they were seriously sick, with bad stomachaches and vomiting, and Miss Carter may have gone into shock from this. “This was really a rare case.”

He added that the primary diagnosis suspected the E Coli bacteria caused by unclean food. “However, samples were sent for further examination in both the United States and Japan to find the real cause,” confirmed Dr. Pasakorn Arkaraseree, Director of the Epidemiology Office.

Provincial Public Health Office Deputy Head Dr. Surasing Wisarutrat said the case will not be concluded until all test results are in. Doctors confirmed that they did not eat seaweed as earlier reports suggested.

The Governor expressed his sadness and concern over the death of the young New Zealand girl, “Thai authorities are looking hard at the case to find the cause and we will inform formally and immediately the family members through the New Zealand Embassy.

He spoke on behalf of Thai authorities that “We are very much concerned and definitely look after all visitors to Chiang Mai.” He has ordered government officials to step up inspection of all food shops, restaurants and hotel services to ensure food cleanliness.

Chiang Mai Police then reported that the elderly British couple, Eileen and George Everitt who checked into the hotel on February 9. They were scheduled to check out February 19 but when they did not appear, staff called their room and then entered the locked room with a master key after they had not answered the phone. There they found the couple dead, Eileen Everitt, age 74 on the bed and George Everitt, 78, sitting near the bed.

Police found no evidence of a break in, no signs of illness or vomiting, no drugs or poisonous substances in the room. It is believed the couple died on February 17 or early morning the 18th since they did not appear for breakfast on the 18th. Doctors reported that both couples suffered from severe blockage of the arteries that resulted in a coronary thrombosis.

[chiangmaimail]2011-03-09[/chiangmaimail]

[IAMHERE]

Did anyone for even a nanosecond expect anything else?

If the cops 'thought' any different you'd think they'd find out if any Hotel worker at the Downtown also just happened to be working at the hotel down near Phuket when those tourist died under much the same manner/coinsidenses. The two youn tourist girls were reported to be eating chicken or pork at a street vendor, then somehow it becomes blowfish they were eating. If I were a betting person I"d bet there will be some more strang deaths at a hotel in some other smaller city. I want to know who working at that hotel quits in the next two months and were they go to.

[kuffki]

I do not know what is more scary, the fact that they can not make any determinations and NEED to send samples to USA and japan or do not even have the ability to run tests locally. Also they sent samples of what? Might as well send the full body since they have no idea at all

[Jingthing]

They ought to shut down the hotel. Period. It is not known what caused the deaths and it could be a sick building. Anyone staying there innocently unaware of the history is risking their lives and it should be criminal to not inform them before staying. Who in their right mind would stay there now knowing the history, and knowing that nothing has been done to correct the problem, except ridiculous rationalizations? They will still get lots of bookings from people who don't know and to my view this is a horribly immoral situation now. PR damage? Sure. But by closing the hotel they damage only one hotel, not all of Chiang Mai tourism, or even all of Thailand tourism. It would actually inspire confidence that the authorities DO care about tourists lives.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Jingthing

[jimbeam1]

Be interesting to see if the bodies of the British couple are repatriated rather than cremated in LOS. Under English law an inquest would then have to be held. I think the coroner would raise an eyebrow at this particular "coincidence" and order another autopsy. Even with the passage of time there could be some interesting results emerging.

It would be nice to think so. Do not be suprised to read in a couple of days time, that they have been cremated already.

The British Embassy should have stepped in from the very beginning. Sadly that would have meant doing their job. Just like during the troubles last year. They shut up shop.

I do so hope that the British media pick up on this and really go for it. Expose the corruption of the Thai authorities, for ehat they really are and the British Embassy, for once again just sitting on their a-ses and pandering to the Thai government wishes.

Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't thailand need authority from family before they simply cremate a farang who died from coincidence?

Yes in the real world you are correct. But I do seem to remember an instance last year on TV, that it did happen to someone. One of the girls on Phi Phi comes to mind, but I may be wrong. But I am sure that I did read of it happening in Thailand.

jb1

[jimbeam1]

Oh yes another update and what have they actually told us? Same, same but just a little bit different.

jb1

[metisdead]

An all caps reply and another troll reply removed from view.

[ginjag]

Statistically, there is a connection with Downtown inn and the deaths. The independent variable is X used to test against Y, dependent variable from my knowledge. one of the independent variables, Xs is Downtown Inn. They must be clear about the connection with Downtown Inn first before move on to other independent variables then.

What??????

Yes WHAT ?????? whatever your on mate ---count me out. must be pretty strong.

[gotlost]

The count is up to five. Not the same hotel but TAT better get a hold on this.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/449724-what-about-the-5th-death/

[dunkin2012]

I do not know what is more scary, the fact that they can not make any determinations and NEED to send samples to USA and japan or do not even have the ability to run tests locally. Also they sent samples of what? Might as well send the full body since they have no idea at all

i don't mean to be rude... this is for discussion.

hum.... they are not stupid enough... to send the whole corpse away for a lab test then. Samples means parts not all. In statistics, sampling means 2%,5%,10%,20% or even 20% is still too high. If there are 100,000 for example to be tested 10% will be a bit too high...