Israel rejects U.S. call for 1967 borders

[Scott]

One inflammatory post deleted.

[luckizuchinni]

Peace in the Middle East will go a long ways in combating terrorism. And with regards to Israel/Palestine, it seems reasonable to me that a two state solution which will end up somewhere between the present borders and those of 1967 is what would be most acceptable. So whether we start at the present borders with Israel giving up land to the Palestinians or going with the 1967 border with Israel gaining land necessary for satisfactory defense of the country is merely politics. The end result will be the same. So if starting with the 1967 borders is a bait to get the Palestinians to the table in earnest, I am all for that.

And I disagree with the contentions that Palestinians do not want peace. Certainly some factions are stridently anti-Israeli, and they will not recognize Israel as a country, and that is unacceptable. However, people-power does have teeth, and things change.

I was in Iraq pre-Awakening. The Sunnis were our big enemy, the ones we fought on a daily basis. Then I went to Al Qi'am, a city on the Syrian border. This had been a dangerous place, but someone pointed out to the sheik there that they were on a crossroads for commerce between Iraq and Syria/Jordan. In one day, the sheik did a 180 and told his people that they would not fight the Americans--period. Overnight, the place became a haven of peace. And commerce. Money began to flow in as goods began to flow. I was surprised to see US Marines walking around without their full battle gear, even going to local restaurants.

If the Palestinians can be convinced that they can improve their lot in life by giving up the violence, that jobs are more attractive than rockets, and if the Israelis can be convinced that they are secure, well, peace would be not only possible, but probable. The extremists on both sides will be shouldered out.

Color televisions, i-Pads, and Hondas can and will trump mortars and rockets.

[powderpuff]

No such Country of "Palestine" ever existed nor a group of people by the same name ever existed. either. So why POTUS is in such an all fired hurry to create such an entity is a complete mystery. I guess he is an Arabist like T. E. Lawrence. One can only guess. Huge mistake. Let's hope we can shut it down.

[Ulysses G.]

I guess he is an Arabist like T. E. Lawrence.

More like Michael Moore.

[siamiam]

We also do not have the right to tell them to do something as stupid as returning to borders that they can not defend.

That is my point. We have the "right" to tell them anything we want, even if you are misstating Obama's specifics.... And as an American citizen, I feel that the USA needs to look out for our own interests. Not Israel's. Not the Palestinians'....

Since the early 1980's the US has given Israel approximately 4 billion dollars every year. This is becoming a considerable amount of money. In addition, many believe that the advent of Islamic radicalization is largely due to the long 'festering sore' of the Israel-Palestine issue. The US has spent in excess of 1 trillion dollars prosecuting the 'war on terror'. Now, US citizens are told that there must be drastic cuts to their social security and medical aid programs. When the US government tells Israel that building further settlements is not helpful, Israel builds them anyway. It is obvious to me that Israel is not the friend of the United States that they have been portrayed as being. As a US citizen, I applaud President Obama for his statement that was intended to force Israel to be more sincere about resolving the conflict.

Edited May 24, 2011 by siamiam

[kuffki]

We also do not have the right to tell them to do something as stupid as returning to borders that they can not defend.

That is my point. We have the "right" to tell them anything we want, even if you are misstating Obama's specifics.... And as an American citizen, I feel that the USA needs to look out for our own interests. Not Israel's. Not the Palestinians'....

Since the early 1980's the US has given Israel approximately 4 billion dollars every year. This is becoming a considerable amount of money. In addition, many believe that the advent of Islamic radicalization is largely due to the long 'festering sore' of the Israel-Palestine issue. The US has spent in excess of 1 trillion dollars prosecuting the 'war on terror'. Now, US citizens are told that there must be drastic cuts to their social security and medical aid programs. When the US government tells Israel that building further settlements is not helpful, Israel builds them anyway. It is obvious to me that Israel is not the friend of the United States that they have been portrayed as being. I applaud President Obama for his statement that was intended to force Israel to be more sincere about resolving the conflict.

So many here keep bringing up the aid to Israel, why do you not bring up aid to Palestine, Egypt, Pakistan, Afganistan,India etc?????

The difference is, with Israel, USA has a real ally, which helps with intelligence,development, military, progress etc, while with the majority of others USA gets nothing in return, if anything the opposite of an ally.

so how about for once, we call spade a spade and be fare. With Israel USA gets its money worth, what does USA get from Palestine? or Pakistan?

Can USA really rely on Egypt or Pakistan, should anything go down with Iran or any other place in the middle east .

Does Palestine provide valuable intelligence or anything in return for the aid?

[siamiam]

We also do not have the right to tell them to do something as stupid as returning to borders that they can not defend.

That is my point. We have the "right" to tell them anything we want, even if you are misstating Obama's specifics.... And as an American citizen, I feel that the USA needs to look out for our own interests. Not Israel's. Not the Palestinians'....

Since the early 1980's the US has given Israel approximately 4 billion dollars every year. This is becoming a considerable amount of money. In addition, many believe that the advent of Islamic radicalization is largely due to the long 'festering sore' of the Israel-Palestine issue. The US has spent in excess of 1 trillion dollars prosecuting the 'war on terror'. Now, US citizens are told that there must be drastic cuts to their social security and medical aid programs. When the US government tells Israel that building further settlements is not helpful, Israel builds them anyway. It is obvious to me that Israel is not the friend of the United States that they have been portrayed as being. I applaud President Obama for his statement that was intended to force Israel to be more sincere about resolving the conflict.

So many here keep bringing up the aid to Israel, why do you not bring up aid to Palestine, Egypt, Pakistan, Afganistan,India etc?????

The difference is, with Israel, USA has a real ally, which helps with intelligence,development, military, progress etc, while with the majority of others USA gets nothing in return, if anything the opposite of an ally.

so how about for once, we call spade a spade and be fare. With Israel USA gets its money worth, what does USA get from Palestine? or Pakistan?

Can USA really rely on Egypt or Pakistan, should anything go down with Iran or any other place in the middle east .

Does Palestine provide valuable intelligence or anything in return for the aid?

The amount of US aid given individually to the other countries you mention is, when tabulated in it's entirety, considerably less than that given to Israel. And, in part, the aid for some of these other countries became a necessity because of the Israel-Palestine conflict. Most of the aid given to Palestine is due to this conflict. Without the conflict, the requirements for aid to these countries would be less.

Certainly, I view the US relationship with Israel as being a closer one than those we have with some of the other countries you mention.

Edited May 24, 2011 by siamiam

[luckizuchinni]

No such Country of "Palestine" ever existed nor a group of people by the same name ever existed. either. So why POTUS is in such an all fired hurry to create such an entity is a complete mystery. I guess he is an Arabist like T. E. Lawrence. One can only guess. Huge mistake. Let's hope we can shut it down.

That is really a disingenuous argument. There are people who call themselves Palestinians, and they have lived in the region for years and years. What you want to call them or not call them makes no difference. We can call them Lilliputians, for that matter.

But in fact, you are wrong. From Syria Palaestina to the post WWI Mandate for Palestine, the term has long been associated with the region. It was mostly Arabic in population (pre Islamic and Islamic) until the influx of Jews in the 20th century changed the population mix.

Israel as a modern country was created by international mandate after WWII. It was created by fiat. And I don't think this was done by "Jewist" officials anymore than I think Obama is "Arabist" or those worldwide supporting the formation of Southern Sudan next month as an independent entity are "Southern Sudanists."

[Ulysses G.]

But in fact, you are wrong.

Actually, you are and there have been loads of Arabs that have admitted it.

Most of the "Palestinians" arrived from surrounding Arab countries about the same time that most of the Jews did and had no more right to the land than Jewish immigrants.

Most of the population in the area was in Jerusalem before 1900 and the majority of people in Jerusalem were Jewish in the 1800s.

Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?" "We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag". "When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out".

http://www.huffingto...0_63970239.html

That was a great speech by Netanyahu last night. 56 times the entire Congress - Democrats and Republicans - applauded him and 30 were STANDING OVATIONS.

http://www.therights...efore-congress/

Yesterday, even Democratic Senate Majority leader Harry Read said that it is not up to the US to tell Israel what to do about their borders. I do not think that they have to worry about being forced to return to indefensible borders.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[koheesti]

We also do not have the right to tell them to do something as stupid as returning to borders that they can not defend.

That is my point. We have the "right" to tell them anything we want, even if you are misstating Obama's specifics.... And as an American citizen, I feel that the USA needs to look out for our own interests. Not Israel's. Not the Palestinians'....

Since the early 1980's the US has given Israel approximately 4 billion dollars every year. This is becoming a considerable amount of money.

It is a lot of money but as I understand it, we aren't talking about giving them bags of money but rather they get that in American-made military equipment. That keeps Americans working and the military(jobs)-industrial(jobs) complex humming along.

Edited May 25, 2011 by koheesti

[johna]

But in fact, you are wrong.

Actually, you are and there have been loads of Arabs that have admitted it.

Most of the "Palestinians" arrived from surrounding Arab countries about the same time that most of the Jews did and had no more right to the land than Jewish immigrants.

Most of the population in the area was in Jerusalem before 1900 and the majority of people in Jerusalem were Jewish in the 1800s.

Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?" "We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag". "When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out".

http://www.huffingto...0_63970239.html

That was a great speech by Netanyahu last night. 56 times the entire Congress - Democrats and Republicans - applauded him and 30 were STANDING OVATIONS.

http://www.therights...efore-congress/

Yesterday, even Democratic Senate Majority leader Harry Read said that it is not up to the US to tell Israel what to do about their borders. I do not think that they have to worry about being forced to return to indefensible borders.

Netanyahu's speech was the usual pack of lies, but the slavish obeisance shown Netanyahu by members of congress was truly disgusting, and demonstrates AIPAC power over congress.

Netanyahu said America was Israel best friend, but a better description would be America is an Israeli puppet.

[kuffki]

But in fact, you are wrong.

Actually, you are and there have been loads of Arabs that have admitted it.

Most of the "Palestinians" arrived from surrounding Arab countries about the same time that most of the Jews did and had no more right to the land than Jewish immigrants.

Most of the population in the area was in Jerusalem before 1900 and the majority of people in Jerusalem were Jewish in the 1800s.

Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?" "We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag". "When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out".

http://www.huffingto...0_63970239.html

That was a great speech by Netanyahu last night. 56 times the entire Congress - Democrats and Republicans - applauded him and 30 were STANDING OVATIONS.

http://www.therights...efore-congress/

Yesterday, even Democratic Senate Majority leader Harry Read said that it is not up to the US to tell Israel what to do about their borders. I do not think that they have to worry about being forced to return to indefensible borders.

Netanyahu's speech was the usual pack of lies, but the slavish obeisance shown Netanyahu by members of congress was truly disgusting, and demonstrates AIPAC power over congress.

Netanyahu said America was Israel best friend, but a better description would be America is an Israeli puppet.

Please elaborate what was a pack of lies? and why its the usual?

Considering the amount of people in congress, do you NOW claim that Israel controls every member of congress? and considering that most people in Congress are extremely well educated, do you not find it odd that ONLY you found it disgusting, while those in congress found it otherwise?\

You refereed to America being an Israeli puppet, but America is not 1 person, so i guess the entire congress are the puppets, is that correct?

[geriatrickid]

Let's look at your comments and see how empty and delusional they are when contrasted with the reality.

"Peace in the Middle East will go a long ways incombating terrorism".

Really? How then do you explain what occurred in Yemen? It had nothing to do with Israel. What about Syria? Again Israel is not involved. Iraq's civil unrest doesnot involve Israel. Israel has no relationship whatsoever to theviolent bombs that target Egypt's besieged Christian population. Who murderedthe the PM ofLebanon. Hint: It wasn't Israel.

"And with regards to Israel/Palestine,............ I am all for that."

In the words of the USMC's star Gomer Pyle, surprise, surprise, surprise. Know why? Because Israel has previously offered a similar proposition on the conditionthat Israel would be recognized and that its security be accepted.The security issue is not "merely politics" Every cm given up, brings hostilerocket launchers closer to the populace. If Israel's neighbour was Denmark, there wouldn't be an issue. Your argument ignores the fact that every livingarab negotiator has refused to accept that Israel has a right to exist inpeace.Those that did, did not last long as negotiators. Not once has there ever beena very clear cuthonest forthright statement that Israel has a right to exist.

"And I disagree with the contentions that Palestinians do not want peace............ change. "

Although there are individual arabs that do want peace, the political representativeswill not publicly embrace the concept because of the reality on the ground.Generation upon generation has been indoctrinated with one message: Israel and jews must be destroyed. It starts with the school texts, it is hammered home with the children's TV shows and is a matter of social policy. How then can oneexpect generations that have been subject to collective brainwashing accept thestate of Israel?

"I was in Iraq pre-Awakening. .............I was surprised to seeUS Marines walking around without their full battle gear, even going to localrestaurants. "

The old bribery policy chestnut. It's a bankrupt short term solution. Pakistan proves that. It's also a condescending viewsthat holds that arabs can be bought off. Look at Afghanistan. The tribes change sides like a Pattaya hooker changes johns, The policy doesn't work in the longterm. It never has whether it is Pashtuns, Arabs, or Sodomites

" If the Palestinians can be convinced that they can improve theirlot in life by giving up the violence, that jobs are more attractive thanrockets, and if the Israelis can be convinced that they are secure, well, peacewould be not only possible, but probable. The extremists on both sides will be shouldered out Again,the view that consumer items will win people over. "

To that, I say poppycock. In respect to employment, that has nothing to do with Israel. Billions of dollars have been handed over to the arabs for economic opportunities. What do the donor nations have toshow for it? When Israel handed back the Gaza, it handed back state of the art agricultural greenhouses that could have employed hundreds and provided foodand and income.What happened to those greenhouses? The arabs destroyed them. Gaza was an opportunity that the arabs squandered. Had they managed to live inpeace for a year or two, they would have shown that they were capable of peace andmore lands could have been transferred or swapped. Instead, the Israelis were attacked. Do you honestly expect that the Israelis are goingto allow themselves to be screwed over once again?

"Color televisions, i-Pads, and Hondas can and willtrump mortars and rockets."

This is why I say your comments are delusional.Iran offers its populace all of these items. Arabs living in the west bank and even in the refugee camps have all oft hese baubles and devices. And the end result is still violence.

Apologies for the fonts folks, this forum has a bug with WIN7 systems. Been this way for a month. My Macs and XP still work fine.

Edited May 25, 2011 by geriatrickid

[siamiam]

We also do not have the right to tell them to do something as stupid as returning to borders that they can not defend.

That is my point. We have the "right" to tell them anything we want, even if you are misstating Obama's specifics.... And as an American citizen, I feel that the USA needs to look out for our own interests. Not Israel's. Not the Palestinians'....

Since the early 1980's the US has given Israel approximately 4 billion dollars every year. This is becoming a considerable amount of money.

It is a lot of money but as I understand it, we aren't talking about giving them bags of money but rather they get that in American-made military equipment. That keeps Americans working and the military(jobs)-industrial(jobs) complex humming along.

There is allot of 'data' on the subject and it's not easy to be sure that what you are reading is accurate. Here is a link to a website that does show what you have stated, in that it shows figures for 'military' and 'economic' aid.

http://www.vaughns-1...foreign-aid.htm

Whatever form the aid takes, it is still paid for by the US taxpayer. I don't dispute that there are jobs created along the way, but I feel that there would be jobs created as well, if that money were placed within the US domestic social security and medical aid programs; programs that will likely be cut due to lack of available funding.

[kuffki]

There is allot of 'data' on the subject and it's not easy to be sure that what you are reading is accurate. Here is a link to a website that does show what you have stated, in that it shows figures for 'military' and 'economic' aid.

http://www.vaughns-1...foreign-aid.htm

Whatever form the aid takes, it is still paid for by the US taxpayer. I don't dispute that there are jobs created along the way, but I feel that there would be jobs created as well, if that money were placed within the US domestic social security and medical aid programs; programs that will likely be cut due to lack of available funding.

The amount given to non-friends and is not even appreciated to countries like Egypt, Palestine and Pakistan combined is double, if not triple the amount given to the only friend in the middle east Israel.

Take past 30 years, USA helped Taliban to fight Russians and look how that turned out

USA aided Iran, look how this turned out

USA has been aiding Pakistan and look how this is paying off.

USA has been aiding Egypt and see how they appreciate the help.

While Israel has never turned on USA and maintained the friendship all along the way. Yes there have been some disagreements between the friends, but nothing major to turn it into examples made earlier.

And before you bring up the aid to others because of Israel, Pakistan aid has nothing to do with Israel, Taliban or Iran had nothing to do with Israel.

All the south American aid has nothing to do with Israel

[Ulysses G.]

Let's look at your comments and see how empty and delusional they are when contrasted with the reality.

"Peace in the Middle East will go a long ways incombating terrorism".

Really? How then do you explain what occurred in Yemen? It had nothing to do with Israel. What about Syria? Again Israel is not involved. Iraq's civil unrest does not involve Israel. Israel has no relationship whatsoever to the violent bombs that target Egypt's besieged Christian population. Who murdered the the PM of Lebanon. Hint: It wasn't Israel.

"And with regards to Israel/Palestine,............ I am all for that."

In the words of the USMC's star Gomer Pyle, surprise, surprise, surprise. Know why? Because Israel has previously offered a similar proposition on the condition that Israel would be recognized and that its security be accepted.The security issue is not "merely politics" Every cm given up, brings hostile rocket launchers closer to the populace. If Israel's neighbour was Denmark, there wouldn't be an issue. Your argument ignores the fact that every living arab negotiator has refused to accept that Israel has a right to exist in peace.Those that did, did not last long as negotiators. Not once has there ever been a very clearcut honest forthright statement that Israel has a right to exist.

"And I disagree with the contentions that Palestinians do not want peace............ change. "

Although there are individual arabs that do want peace, the political representatives will not publicly embrace the concept because of the reality on the ground.Generation upon generation has been indoctrinated with one message: Israel and jews must be destroyed. It starts with the school texts, it is hammered home with the children's TV shows and is a matter of social policy. How then can one expect generations that have been subject to collective brainwashing accept the state of Israel?

"I was in Iraq pre-Awakening. .............I was surprised to see US Marines walking around without their full battle gear, even going to local restaurants. "

The old bribery policy chestnut. It's a bankrupt short term solution. Pakistan proves that. It's also a condescending views that holds that arabs can be bought off. Look at Afghanistan. The tribes change sides like a Pattaya hooker changes johns, The policy doesn't work in the longterm. It never has whether it is Pashtuns, Arabs, or Sodomites

" If the Palestinians can be convinced that they can improve their lot in life by giving up the violence, that jobs are more attractive than rockets, and if the Israelis can be convinced that they are secure, well, peace would be not only possible, but probable. The extremists on both sides will be shouldered out Again,the view that consumer items will win people over. "

To that, I say poppycock. In respect to employment, that has nothing to do with Israel. Billions of dollars have been handed over to the arabs for economic opportunities. What do the donor nations have to show for it? When Israel handed back the Gaza, it handed back state of the art agricultural greenhouses that could have employed hundreds and provided food and and income.What happened to those greenhouses? The arabs destroyed them. Gaza was an opportunity that the arabs squandered. Had they managed to live in peace for a year or two, they would have shown that they were capable of peace and more lands could have been transferred or swapped. Instead, the Israelis were attacked. Do you honestly expect that the Israelis are going to allow themselves to be screwed over once again?

"Color televisions, i-Pads, and Hondas can and willtrump mortars and rockets."

This is why I say your comments are delusional. Iran offers its populace all of these items. Arabs living in the west bank and even in the refugee camps have all of these baubles and devices. And the end result is still violence.

I might use the word naive instead of delusional, but geriatrickid's observations on Israel and the Palestinian Arabs are spot on - as usual.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[luckizuchinni]

But in fact, you are wrong.

Actually, you are and there have been loads of Arabs that have admitted it.

Most of the "Palestinians" arrived from surrounding Arab countries about the same time that most of the Jews did and had no more right to the land than Jewish immigrants.

Most of the population in the area was in Jerusalem before 1900 and the majority of people in Jerusalem were Jewish in the 1800s.

Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?" "We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag". "When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out".

http://www.huffingto...0_63970239.html

That was a great speech by Netanyahu last night. 56 times the entire Congress - Democrats and Republicans - applauded him and 30 were STANDING OVATIONS.

http://www.therights...efore-congress/

Yesterday, even Democratic Senate Majority leader Harry Read said that it is not up to the US to tell Israel what to do about their borders. I do not think that they have to worry about being forced to return to indefensible borders.

No I am not wrong. Read my post. I never wrote that the Arabic Muslims or Christians have rights which supercede those of the Israeli Jews. I wrote that this is what they call themselves now, so to get hung up on semantics is silly. "Palestine" is an historical region with fuzzy borders. What we call the current Arabic population in the region is politics.

I call myself an American, but my ancestors came from England, Ireland, and Germany. It is all semantics.

As to your other point, no one is going to "force" Israel to return to "indefensible borders." Israel is a sovereign country, and no matter what the president of the US might say, they will do what they want to do. And there isn't, at present, a military in the region which has the strength to make them do what they don't want. And as far as "indefensible," well, the did a pretty god job before defending them.

And this is one thing which bugs me about this whole issue. We have all these posters here screaming that "we" have no "right" to "force" Israel to change its borders. All Obama did was make a speech. He offered an opinion, a way to possibly move forward, to open stalled negotiations. Last time I heard, Obama was not the King of Israel, able to make proclamations and have them enforced. And Netenyahu pretty much gave his response right back.

Israel will do as Israel wants, so all this gnashing of teeth about this is really overkill, in my humble opinion.

[luckizuchinni]

But in fact, you are wrong.

Actually, you are and there have been loads of Arabs that have admitted it.

Most of the "Palestinians" arrived from surrounding Arab countries about the same time that most of the Jews did and had no more right to the land than Jewish immigrants.

Most of the population in the area was in Jerusalem before 1900 and the majority of people in Jerusalem were Jewish in the 1800s.

Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?" "We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag". "When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out".

http://www.huffingto...0_63970239.html

That was a great speech by Netanyahu last night. 56 times the entire Congress - Democrats and Republicans - applauded him and 30 were STANDING OVATIONS.

http://www.therights...efore-congress/

Yesterday, even Democratic Senate Majority leader Harry Read said that it is not up to the US to tell Israel what to do about their borders. I do not think that they have to worry about being forced to return to indefensible borders.

Netanyahu's speech was the usual pack of lies, but the slavish obeisance shown Netanyahu by members of congress was truly disgusting, and demonstrates AIPAC power over congress.

Netanyahu said America was Israel best friend, but a better description would be America is an Israeli puppet.

Maybe a little overstated, but I certainly can understand the sentiment and can agree with the core premise.

[Ulysses G.]

^{Can someone point out some of Netanyahu's "lies".}

[siamiam]

There is allot of 'data' on the subject and it's not easy to be sure that what you are reading is accurate. Here is a link to a website that does show what you have stated, in that it shows figures for 'military' and 'economic' aid.

http://www.vaughns-1...foreign-aid.htm

Whatever form the aid takes, it is still paid for by the US taxpayer. I don't dispute that there are jobs created along the way, but I feel that there would be jobs created as well, if that money were placed within the US domestic social security and medical aid programs; programs that will likely be cut due to lack of available funding.

The amount given to non-friends and is not even appreciated to countries like Egypt, Palestine and Pakistan combined is double, if not triple the amount given to the only friend in the middle east Israel.

Take past 30 years, USA helped Taliban to fight Russians and look how that turned out

USA aided Iran, look how this turned out

USA has been aiding Pakistan and look how this is paying off.

USA has been aiding Egypt and see how they appreciate the help.

While Israel has never turned on USA and maintained the friendship all along the way. Yes there have been some disagreements between the friends, but nothing major to turn it into examples made earlier.

And before you bring up the aid to others because of Israel, Pakistan aid has nothing to do with Israel, Taliban or Iran had nothing to do with Israel.

All the south American aid has nothing to do with Israel

I stand by what I wrote earlier. If there were no Israel-Palestine conflict, the amount of US taxpayer money that is sent to places like Pakistan, Egypt, Palestine, and Israel, would be much less than what it is today. According to the website data that I provided a link to earlier, the US gives more to Israel than it does to the entire Western Hemisphere. You say the US aid to Pakistan has nothing to do with Israel. I say it does, because I believe that the Israel-Palestine conflict has had allot to due with the advent of radical Islamic 'terrorism'. Look at how much aid the US gave to Pakistan in 2001, before the 9-11 attack. It was 3 million dollars. Solve the Israel-Palestine conflict and the amount of aid that Pakistan gets from the US will return to a similar level.

The amount of money that the US gave to Iran as support in their fight against Iraq is a pittance compared to what we have been giving to Israel for more than three decades. The same is true regarding what the US gave to those that fought the Russians in Afghanistan. There is no comparison to the relatively shorter, (most much shorter), term aid commitments that the US has made to other nations and causes, and the amount that has gone to Israel.

You say that Israel has never turned on the US. I assume you have chosen to ignore the fact that Israel was caught spying in and on the US, (the Pollard case). While US citizens have their social security and medicare reduced, Israel takes US aid and builds settlements that the US government has asked them not to build because it makes a resolution to the conflict more difficult.

Edited May 25, 2011 by metisdead
Font normalized, please use forum default font.

[luckizuchinni]

Let's look at your comments and see how empty and delusional they are when contrasted with the reality.

"Peace in the Middle East will go a long ways incombating terrorism".

Really? How then do you explain what occurred in Yemen? It had nothing to do with Israel. What about Syria? Again Israel is not involved. Iraq's civil unrest doesnot involve Israel. Israel has no relationship whatsoever to theviolent bombs that target Egypt's besieged Christian population. Who murderedthe the PM ofLebanon. Hint: It wasn't Israel.

"And with regards to Israel/Palestine,............ I am all for that."

In the words of the USMC's star Gomer Pyle, surprise, surprise, surprise. Know why? Because Israel has previously offered a similar proposition on the conditionthat Israel would be recognized and that its security be accepted.The security issue is not "merely politics" Every cm given up, brings hostilerocket launchers closer to the populace. If Israel's neighbour was Denmark, there wouldn't be an issue. Your argument ignores the fact that every livingarab negotiator has refused to accept that Israel has a right to exist inpeace.Those that did, did not last long as negotiators. Not once has there ever beena very clear cuthonest forthright statement that Israel has a right to exist.

"And I disagree with the contentions that Palestinians do not want peace............ change. "

Although there are individual arabs that do want peace, the political representativeswill not publicly embrace the concept because of the reality on the ground.Generation upon generation has been indoctrinated with one message: Israel and jews must be destroyed. It starts with the school texts, it is hammered home with the children's TV shows and is a matter of social policy. How then can oneexpect generations that have been subject to collective brainwashing accept thestate of Israel?

"I was in Iraq pre-Awakening. .............I was surprised to seeUS Marines walking around without their full battle gear, even going to localrestaurants. "

The old bribery policy chestnut. It's a bankrupt short term solution. Pakistan proves that. It's also a condescending viewsthat holds that arabs can be bought off. Look at Afghanistan. The tribes change sides like a Pattaya hooker changes johns, The policy doesn't work in the longterm. It never has whether it is Pashtuns, Arabs, or Sodomites

" If the Palestinians can be convinced that they can improve theirlot in life by giving up the violence, that jobs are more attractive thanrockets, and if the Israelis can be convinced that they are secure, well, peacewould be not only possible, but probable. The extremists on both sides will be shouldered out Again,the view that consumer items will win people over. "

To that, I say poppycock. In respect to employment, that has nothing to do with Israel. Billions of dollars have been handed over to the arabs for economic opportunities. What do the donor nations have toshow for it? When Israel handed back the Gaza, it handed back state of the art agricultural greenhouses that could have employed hundreds and provided foodand and income.What happened to those greenhouses? The arabs destroyed them. Gaza was an opportunity that the arabs squandered. Had they managed to live inpeace for a year or two, they would have shown that they were capable of peace andmore lands could have been transferred or swapped. Instead, the Israelis were attacked. Do you honestly expect that the Israelis are goingto allow themselves to be screwed over once again?

"Color televisions, i-Pads, and Hondas can and willtrump mortars and rockets."

This is why I say your comments are delusional.Iran offers its populace all of these items. Arabs living in the west bank and even in the refugee camps have all oft hese baubles and devices. And the end result is still violence.

Apologies for the fonts folks, this forum has a bug with WIN7 systems. Been this way for a month. My Macs and XP still work fine.

Hmm, I wrote that peace in the Middle East will go a long way in combating terrorism. I never wrote that it will eliminate terrorism. So you are severely misrepresented my statement. And I also have been very clear that any proposal would have to include a guarantee to Israel's security and a complete stoppage of violence. So once again, you are painting me with a very broad brush incorrectly applied.

As far as the rest of your post, well, you are entitled to your opinion, and I guess we are just going to have to disagree. When I study history, I see that a populace which is content with their quality of life rarely turns violent. When I see Arabic and Christian Palestinians getting along peacefully with Israeli Jews, it is almost always in context of businesses and jobs (I have spoken with very content Palestinians working in Jewish companies, Palestinians who are against the violence, at least saying they are against it.)

Not that anyone is tracking my posts, but in other threads, I have taken great issue with posters such as bangkokeddy who seem to feel that Israel is the land of the devils and who have no right to self-defense. I have supported Israel actions in response to rocket attacks. I thoroughly support Israel's right to exist. However, unlike some, I am not a knee-jerk puppet supporting all things Israel. Israel has its faults. And I believe that for Israel's sake, for the sake of the Palestinians, and for the sake for the USA, for that matter, that something needs to be done. If Obama tried to shake things up a bit, so be it. I would rather shake things up and see if something can go forward than sit on the status quo where we know nothing will go forward.

[Scott]

I think the thread is starting to stray off-topic a bit.

There is little doubt that an enduring peace agreement between Israel and the Palistinians would go a long way toward solving regional problems and would have a positive affect on the region.

Would it resolve the issue of terrorism? On that issue, I am skeptical. The agenda of the fanatics runs deeper than the issue of Israel and Palistine. If anybody thought that Islamic terrorism would disappear with a peace deal, then the 1967 borders would, in theory at least, be acceptable. The reason that those borders are indefensible, is because of terrorist related activities.

A acceptable solution to the Israeli-Paistinian issue, however, would give the terrorists one less excuse.

[Ulysses G.]

No I am not wrong. Read my post. I never wrote that the Arabic Muslims or Christians have rights which supercede those of the Israeli Jews. I wrote that this is what they call themselves now, so to get hung up on semantics is silly. "Palestine" is an historical region with fuzzy borders. What we call the current Arabic population in the region is politics.

Yes, I agree that these Arabs started calling themselves Palestinians sometime around 1967, but MANY people have swallowed the PC lie that there was a sovereign "Palestinian Country" there that a bunch of European Jews came in and took over and that is very far from the truth. In fact they legally bought a lot of the barren land from the Syrian landlords and worked it and made it bloom with vegetation.

There were some Arabs living there as there were some Jews, but the vast majority came in illegally during the British mandate after 1900. However, the Jews turned out to be the one's that accepted the UN land and got their own country. The Arabs refused and made their own bed which they are still laying in to this day.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[siamiam]

I think the thread is starting to stray off-topic a bit.

There is little doubt that an enduring peace agreement between Israel and the Palistinians would go a long way toward solving regional problems and would have a positive affect on the region.

Would it resolve the issue of terrorism? On that issue, I am skeptical. The agenda of the fanatics runs deeper than the issue of Israel and Palistine. If anybody thought that Islamic terrorism would disappear with a peace deal, then the 1967 borders would, in theory at least, be acceptable. The reason that those borders are indefensible, is because of terrorist related activities.

A acceptable solution to the Israeli-Paistinian issue, however, would give the terrorists one less excuse.

I think it was Alan Dershowits that said he believes 80 percent of the cause of Islamic terrorism in the world was because of the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict. It is always there, a never healing wound. I do agree that the agenda of Islamic fanatics runs deeper than the Israel-Palestine conflict. Equally important to me and many of my fellow citizens is the cost that this conflict is now beginning to have on our country, the US.

Edited May 25, 2011 by siamiam

[luckizuchinni]

No I am not wrong. Read my post. I never wrote that the Arabic Muslims or Christians have rights which supercede those of the Israeli Jews. I wrote that this is what they call themselves now, so to get hung up on semantics is silly. "Palestine" is an historical region with fuzzy borders. What we call the current Arabic population in the region is politics.

Yes, I agree that these Arabs started calling themselves Palestinians sometime around 1967, but MANY people have swallowed the PC lie that there was a sovereign "Palestinian Country" there that a bunch of European Jews came in and took over and that is very far from the truth. In fact they legally bought a lot of the barren land from the Syrian landlords and worked it and made it bloom with vegetation.

There were some Arabs living there as there were some Jews, but the vast majority came in illegally during the British mandate after 1900, However, the Jews turned out to be the one's that accepted the UN land and got their own country. The Arabs refused and made their own bed which they are still laying in to this day.

On this, I can basically agree, although I am not sure how many people really think there was a nation of "Palestine" which was taken over by European Jews. (Could be, I guess, but I think that may be a minority view just like the view that Obama is Muslim or that Thailand in Taiwan.). But that does not mean we should ignore the present ground truth and not seek a solution.

If I was an Israeli, I would want the rockets to stop. I would want to be able to spend less on defense. If I was a Palestinian, I would want freedom of movement and not to be treated like a second-class citizen. The key is to find a solution which fills the needs of both sides, not just one side.

[kuffki]

You can believe what you like, but in reality all you are doing is scapegoating .

What's south American excuses ? Drugs have not stopped.

Taliban did not have a problem with Israel when taking USA money to fight Russia ?

Again Its fair to be fair!

I think the thread is starting to stray off-topic a bit.

There is little doubt that an enduring peace agreement between Israel and the Palistinians would go a long way toward solving regional problems and would have a positive affect on the region.

Would it resolve the issue of terrorism? On that issue, I am skeptical. The agenda of the fanatics runs deeper than the issue of Israel and Palistine. If anybody thought that Islamic terrorism would disappear with a peace deal, then the 1967 borders would, in theory at least, be acceptable. The reason that those borders are indefensible, is because of terrorist related activities.

A acceptable solution to the Israeli-Paistinian issue, however, would give the terrorists one less excuse.

I think it was Allan Dershowits that said he believes 80 percent of the cause of Islamic terrorism in the world was because of the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict. It is always there, a never healing wound. I do agree that the agenda of Islamic fanatics runs deeper than the Israel-Palestine conflict. Equally important to me and many of my fellow citizens is the cost that this conflict is now beginning to have on our country, the US.

[Ulysses G.]

I am not sure how many people really think there was a nation of "Palestine" which was taken over by European Jews.

Most people.

This story is one of my pet peeves and I think a majority of Westerners have swallowed this lie as I have heard it repeated over and over again, which is one reason I spend so much time refuting it.

By the way, the reason that I support Israel is because I have studied the history of the region for a long time and nothing to do with being a "puppet' of Mossad.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[luckizuchinni]

I am not sure how many people really think there was a nation of "Palestine" which was taken over by European Jews.

Most people.

This story is one of my pet peeves and I think a majority of Westerners have swallowed this lie as I have heard it repeated over and over again, which is one reason I spend so much time refuting it.

By the way, the reason that I support Israel is because I have studied the history of the region for a long time and nothing to do with being a "puppet' of Mossad.

I guess the difference is that I support the USA.

I am not an Israeli, nor a Palestinian. I will support the best solution in the region with regards to the world at large, but I do not blindly follow either of the two factions 100%. No one faction can possibly be 100% in the right, in my opinion.

[Steely Dan]

Here is a transcript of Netanyahu's speech.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/americas/transcript-of-prime-minister-netanyahus-address-to-us-congress/article2032842/

President Abbas must do what I have done. I stood before my people -- and I told you, it wasn't easy for me -- I stood before my people and I said, "I will accept a Palestinian state." It's time for President Abbas to stand before his people and say, "I will accept a Jewish state." (Cheers, applause.)

Those six words will change history. They'll make it clear to the Palestinians that this conflict must come to an end; that they're not building a Palestinian state to continue the conflict with Israel, but to end it.

And those six words will convince the people of Israel that they have a true partner for peace.

Even the Russians demanded exactly this from Hamas, until it's forthcoming not one inch of land should be granted to the Palestinians.

[Ulysses G.]

I guess the difference is that I support the USA.

I am not an Israeli, nor a Palestinian. I will support the best solution in the region with regards to the world at large, but I do not blindly follow either of the two factions 100%. No one faction can possibly be 100% in the right, in my opinion.

I support the USA also. No difference there. However, Israel has been willing to make peace since the troubles began and the Palestinian Arabs have not. In my opinion, that makes the Israelis a lot closer to right than the Arabs who started the war in the first place and refuse to compromise to stop it.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Ulysses G.