Thailand's Democrats Seek Ban On Thaksin Party

[hanuman1]

There is something to be said for letting PTP try and fail spectacularly.

But if they did not get elected legally, then they actually are NOT elected.

That really should be determined, whether most of their MPs stay in office or all of them.

In any case the Rule Of Law will be applied.

"In any case the Rule Of Law will be applied."

Yep, just like it has been for decades in Thailand. Not.

Interestingly when it does get applied, then the

'it wasn't before' argument is used by the losing side to excuse it being done now.

Sooooooo, finally starting to apply the law is a double standard?

Calm down. My post was not a prescription. It was a forecast based on a century of precedent.

[Puccini]

IF the PTP is banned for breaking election laws, it doesn't mean that they will lose government.

The party executives will be banned from politics. By-elections will be held for any electorates where a banned MP was elected.

...

That's bringing the discussion back on topic. All the excited talk about vote buying has nothing to do with this topic, as far as I can see from the news article, from which I quote this (highlighting in bold is mine):

The Democrat Party asked the Election Commission to pursue the abolition of the rival Puea Thai Party, the winner of Sunday's election, on the grounds that banned politicians were involved in its campaign.

If I remember correctly, last time a political party, the TRT, was dissolved, their MPs were free to join another party, eg the newly founded PTP. Only if an MP was simultaneously a party executive and was banned from politics because of something he did in his function as party executive did he loose his membership in the House of Representatives, but the voters were free to elect a new person as replacement from the successor of the dissolved party. In other words, the party dissolution did not infringe on the sacrosanct "people's mandate".

[EnhancePlus]

Legitimate? If the judiciary were neutral, which they are not (yet), how could they defend dissolving the party with such a mandate from the people? Parliament is the law, and the people have chosen a new parliament haven't they?

Because they broke the law.

If proved so, nothing more need be said.

A large mandate is not a free pass to break election laws.

Parliament is not the law.

Parliament MAKES laws, and STILL must abide by them as much as everyone else must. Also the new parliament, yet to be confirmed and installed, can not necessarily make laws retroactive to absolve from existing charges.

The "LAW" in Thailand is as malleable as a ball of play dough.

The judiciary are bought and sold.

To say one side is on the right side of the law and the other is not is to deny the practical day to day application of the laws here.

Everyone knows that... except some of the commentators here who prefer to support one side and not another.

It's their squabble... there is no sense or justice at work here.

It's a pantomime, being played out by the super wealthy who feign subservience to the law.

EXACTLY!

[whybother]

The real question is why didn't the Democrats launch these charges & investigation long ago before the election?

Doing it now only cause the the Reds to ban together and be stronger because all their whole group is about banning together to hate. At this point it is better to just let them fight between themselves.

But of course this is no surprise when a country votes to go back in time 5-years and once again allow Thaksin to try to run the country through a puppet. The colors will change but there is little doubt that their will be death and burning in the streets in the not to distant future .... and of course another coup.

"long ago before the election" How long before the election? 6 weeks? Before election campaigning began?

Even if they had, the EC wouldn't have had enough time to rule on it anyway. But even the some in the PTP were cautious about Thaksin's involvement.

[wolfmanjack]

Actually, since it is likely both of the majors (PTP and Dems) are guilty of vote buying, it would be interesting to see them both banned from politics. Let Thailand get a real first chance at establishing something meaningful.

Exactly.

I saw irregularities, small and big, in the case of all parties. In circumstances such as these in a fully developed democracy, all parties would be raising electoral complaints against all other parties. This complaint is, in my opinion, a vehicle to promote a more democratic process, as democracy rests on the precipice of the Law - although I would not write off sour grapes as part of the motivation.

The EC has already announced that there are hundreds of complaints they are investigating. i would guess that , like last time, these complaints are scattered among all parties. There is a difference though in one of the people running committing offenses and the party executives or the party as a whole committing offenses. When it is shown that the offense is party policy and supported by the executive members then the party should be dissolved and the executive members should be banned. When it is shown that the infraction was on the part of one individual then only he or she should be banned. Close to the election Date Yingluck tried to change and say thaksin was not speaking for the party but thaksin himself kept making comments showing he was. Even if he did not it was too obvious by what he had said in the press before Yingluck tried to change the appearance of his involvement.

[rixalex]

His parents where shopkeepers far removed from the old and powerful elite. Look at the colleges they attended very far from the elite. Chinese Elite = born with a silver spoon in their mouth like the last PM. He made the poor feel like real people for the first time in their lives.Like or not they will never forget it.

Shopkeepers? Yes of course. Thaksin was like Granville, and his dad Arkwright.

Truth is they were very comfortably off multi millionaires. I mean, nothing like the wealth that Thaksin now enjoys, but nothing close to the working class you suggest.

Thaksin's great-grandfather Seng Sae Khu made his fortune through tax farming. The Khu/Shinawatra later founded Shinawatra Silks and then by moving into finance, construction and property development. Thaksin's father, Lert, was born in Chiang Mai in 1919 and married Yindi Ramingwong (a daughter of Princess Jantip Na Chiang Mai). In 1968, Lert Shinawatra entered politics and became an MP for Chiang Mai and deputy leader of the now-defunct Liberal party. Lert Shinawatra quit politics in 1976. Lert Shinawatra opened a coffee shop, grew oranges and flowers in Chiang Mai's San Kamphaeng district, and opened two movie theatres, a gas station, and a car and motorcycle dealership. By the time Thaksin was born, the Shinawatra family was one of the richest and most influential families in Chiang Mai.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaksin_Shinawatra

[Jirapa]

Sour grapes....You lost now live with it!

[Wallaby]

Why didn't the Dems contest the validity of PT or it's members before the election? It just makes the Dems look like little cry babies by running home to mummy after they don't get their way.

Could open a can of worms by finding out that both parties acted illegally, end up with the military in charge. Ahhh welcome Prime Minister General...

It's a fair question, but it's going to take months for this to go through the courts anyway, so it wouldn't have stopped the election to proceed as it did. That I think weakens your point. I also think it was rather obvious that PTP was doing this, I mean in most countries the idea of a criminal fugitive pulling the strings of a proxy candidate would raise eyebrows to put it mildly, but the voters didn't seem to care. But strictly legally they have every right to pursue this case.

Whybother...........I'm not sure what you are saying. It would be the same as big Arnie being elected President of the US and only then a complaint being made that he was illegally elected because he wasn't born in the US. Thaksin (the puppeteer) isn't elected and he is banned isn't he? I'm sure the Dems could have filed a complaint that the PT party, or certain members, were acting illegally and at least then it wouldn't be seen as sour grapes.

Jingthing, another way to look at is that the people knew the 'problems' with big brother illegally 'influencing' the election but they considered it a better alternative than to vote for the dems. It could be that the people preferred a 'criminal' to govern them.

[SiriusBlack1]

Even you Thaksin-haters have to admit this is beyond arrogant. Pheua Thai wins a massive landslide victory, and the - quote - "Democrats" -unquote - want to have them banned?

Paraphrasing Bertolt Brecht, perhaps the Democrat party should just dissolve the Thai people, and elect another?

[mitrapaap]

What a bunch of sore losers! The Democrates are just blindly throwing the kitchen sink and all.... I have lost whatever small respect I have for them. They should just sit at a corner and sulk for all I care.

They had over 3 years to learn exactly this from Phuea Thai.

[rubl]

What a morons. The democrat party corrupted to the bone, getting off on a technicality wants a ban. Only for one single reason to ban Yingluck. I predict a civil war which will be won by the voters of Thailand, which will have no mercy with the Democrat leaders. In any case any party country or organization which bears the word "Democratic" in it, is often authoritarian and has nothing to do with democracy.

The court decided to dismiss the case on grounds of a technicality. Hadn't they, they more than likely would have dismissed the case on 'lack of substance'. Funnily enough the case was only lodged AFTER a visit by UDD leaders and some supporters.

The EC will investigate the case just lodged by the Dem's and depending on outcome may or may not decide to bring a case forward. Anyone who still has a list of current names, addresses and mobile numbers of the EC members

PS the UK Liberal Democrats for one wouldn't disagree with you

[webfact]

Democrats to ask Election Commission to advise Constitutional Court

Democrats to ask Election Commission to advise Constitutional Court to dissolve Pheu Thai Party for allowing politicians subject to five-year bans including Thaksin, to be involved in planning, phone-ins and video addresses

-- TNA 2011-07-08

[MartinBKK]

So, here they go again? Can't win at the ballot box, let's get the winning party banned in the courts? Do they have an aversion to being in opposition?

If they're successful, what will they say to the Thai people? "We know you didn't vote for us, but we didn't like the results of the election, so we changed it?"

Democrats? In name only!

Absolutely - respect the outcome for goodness sake it wasn't even close. Disgusting.

[dhrobertson]

Will you lot please slow down?

You're posting faster than I can read!

[rubl]

Even you Thaksin-haters have to admit this is beyond arrogant. Pheua Thai wins a massive landslide victory, and the - quote - "Democrats" -unquote - want to have them banned?

Paraphrasing Bertolt Brecht, perhaps the Democrat party should just dissolve the Thai people, and elect another?

The Democrats want the EC to rule whether or not Pheu Thai broke the Election Law. If so, Pheu Thai may be disbanded, some party members banned from politics for 5 years.

In itself this 'probe' has nothing to do with PT winning the elections. Even had they lost a probe could be asked for

[CosmicSurfer]

Surprise,surprise!

The people have had their say, hopefully he courts will throw this out before it even gets off the ground.

Upholding anything like this would probably be the simple way to allow the military to do exactly what they said they won't on the basis that they would be intervening in a potential civil war.

Let the democratically elected government to get on with their job, if they fail the people will have an opportunity to go to the polls again in the future.

Nothing Democratic about an election with Rampant Vote Buying.

CS

The vote buying issue cuts two ways.

1. The Dems were buying in my town where they lost their previuous majority narrowly. Why do people only seem to assume it is PTP doing this when clearly it is not.

2. People take the money but many dont actually vote for those who paid them. Once insdie the voting booth they can simply put their cross wherever they choose.

3. It was alleged that vote buying took place in a constituency where PTP got 71,000 votes and Dems under 1500. That would be a very stupid waste of 7m baht!

I dont dispute that vote buying goes on, and certainly dont condone it, but how do we know the people who take the money vote for that party and perhaos more importantly how do we know they would not have voted that way anyhow.

1) I agree with you. I've never said that the Vote Buying / Corruption isn't taking place by Both Sides.. actually by ALL sides... It's Cultural. The only difference between the Reds and Yellows, Phua Thai and Democrats, Newin and Thaksin, is that they have different Names.. they are all Both sides of the same Coin... Corruption in endemic in Thailand.. and all are equally corrupt... and That is the Problem.. and the reason that a True Democratic election is Impossible here now, until there is a massive cultural awakening.

2) Whether or not the people who took money actually voted the way they had promised, or not is irrelevant.. in a Real Democracy.. Vote Buying or Vote Selling are equally corrupt... and each supports and perpetuates the Other.

3)Never underestimate the ability for a Thai to be Stupid, or act without Common Sense or Logic... after all... TIT !!! and thinking things through is not something they are trained in school to do.

CS

[Beechboy]

Anyone else have a sense of deja vu?

Agreed.

TRT got nailed. PPP also got nailed.

It seems they still haven't learned from experience and have left themselves open yet again. It seemed pretty obvious before hand that this case would be filed whether or not the Dems won...

If they get away with it, all hell could break loose.

It would likely be even worse than before.

It seems that half of Thailand doesn't want to see theCountry settled and prosperousunlessf it is on their terms.

P.S. How do I start a post on this Board now? I have done this a few times before, but now cannot find anything to click such as "New Post."

Somebody out there, please help me.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Beechboy

[ILOOKFORWORK]

Misnamed Thai Democrat Party making itself look even more ruthless and even less credible

Edited July 8, 2011 by soundman
Normalised text.

[wolf5370]

Perhaps all the Thaksin haters and by implication Democrat supporters will now wake up and realize the true nature of the people they support.

No-one who support the current government support democracy.

The people in as free and fair election as you are ever going to have in Thailand have decided and they've come out in their millions to defeat the current administration.

This current Democratic Party move (Democratic? - what a joke) opens the door for a return to seeing tanks on the streets of Bangkok yet again.

I dont suppose it will be long.

Mmmm why does anyone that critisises the Red or any associated party have to be Thaksin haters??? Its peruile trash like that which casues every discussion here to fall into meaningless reguritation of recycled pamphlet propoganda - please use your own intelligence and arguements rather than jumping on the "red under the bed" type of hysterior.

"No-one who support the current government support democracy." erm do you switch sides in alternative sentences??? You DO realise that the current government is not a Democrat one??? Or was that a copy and Paste from earlier drivel?

I would hope that Thailand can muster the ability to include all voters next time and not, through incompetance and silly rules, miss out a million votes (not saying the result would be any diffwerent - just that the latest vote can hardly be called 'the most free and fair as you are ever going to have'[sic].

It is interesting to mention tanks on streets with relation to the Democrats to - I am sure they will deny that one - the coup was the last time tanks rolled through the streets and the Democrats were not in power at that point - and the Army did what the amry does - you don't think the Democrat party ordered it, surely. Or perhaps you mean the soldiers on the streets during the Bangkok riots - I wonder which country would not in such a scenario - I guaratee you Thaksin would have if it had happened to him - he certainly did order flowers to be thrown in the South.

I too believe this could be a silly move by the Democrats, but I don't think it justifies a sillier post in response. Oh, and before you accuse me of being a Thaksin hater, I am not - I have argued before in his defense (when equally silly posts were made) and have stated severalo times that many of the ideals of the Red's (though not necessarily the PTP - and certainly not all their policies) are good ideas. Political debate should be just that, a debate, not babies throwing dumbies at each other.

"Mmmm why does anyone that critisises the Red or any associated party have to be Thaksin haters???" - they dont have to be but having read all the bolox talked about Thaksin on Thaivisa for the last 7 years by people who are clueless about what Thaksin has done for the rural people of Thailand - they nearly always are.

The Democrats "right to rule" (yes - we'll have elections as long as we win) was destroyed when Thaksin won the Jan 2001 General Election by winning 248 of the 500 seats taking 40.6% of the vote. The Democrats won 128 seats with 26.6%

The February 2005 election was won by T.R.T. with the highest voter turnout in Thai history - Thaksin's party winning 375 of the 500 seats with 60.7% of the electorate voting for him.

The election of April 2006 where Thai Ruk Thai was unopposed saw Thaksin win 460 seats winning 61% of the valid votes.

Following the declaration that this election was illegal, intervention by the military, the enforced disbanding of T.R.T. and Thaksins self imposed exile the December 2007 general election with the T.R.T. now standing as the P.P.P. saw the P.P.P. win 233 of the 500 seats with the Democrats behind (again) with 165.

These results speak for themselves. The voice of the people of Thailand is NOT being heard. The current government has NO mandate from the people to govern even though their right to govern is legitimate (with coalitions).

Even now having been defeated yet again by a landslide they refuse to accept defeat.

Every word I posted was legitimate and fair.

You are clearly not mature enough to understand particularly the last reference about the Army when the head of the Army in Thailand is a sworn Democrat and even urged the People to "do the right thing" and not vote Pheu Thai.

Mmm and why was the election disallowed? And why did Thaksin wait so long as caretaker PM, and therefore without mandate from the people, that he allowed the deadline to pass - making himself an illegal holder of the office. There is always a problem with writing bullet popinted history - when there is bias, its easy to space out, compress and miss out points at will.

No, every word you posted was not fair or legitimate - over a million people not being able to vote (a sizeable chunck of the electorate) is hardly the most free and fare election we are ever going to see - at least I certainly hope its not!

Not mature enough...Nice of you to notice, one does what one can with what God has dealt one! Yes, I know it was meant as a flame, but as you do not know me I just take it that you were upset that I questioned your statement rather than got down and licked your toes. If you want us to be able to take your vague comment and realise a distinct meaning (i.e. tanks will roll again = the head of the Army isn't Thaksins nephew, but a Dem) then you really do need to be more precise in your description.

Personally I think tanks will roll (coup) if the new Gov makes a serious mis-judgement on reorganising the military leadership - again. Pee-ing off generals by promotong family members up 5 ranks or more over night and sacking people because they hold a different ideology (or maybe just don't trust you enough not to sack them if you do get into power - like last time) then you are asking for trouble really. Of course General Khattiya Sawasdipol (Seh Daeng) wasn't exactly a-political either.

[bobmac10]

Really chaps... discussing who is right and wrong in a situation like this is akin to trying to untangle a mile of fine silk thread.

Frustrating, impossible, futile.

These constant references to justice and the law by senior and advanced members puzzle me.

Which country do they think they are living in?

It can't be Thailand.

Unless they they are in a hermatically sealed bubble... cut off from reality.

From the farmer to the prime minister, it's not what you know it's who you know and how much you can pay.

That is the reality.

This play has nothing to do with justice. never will.

[whybother]

Whybother...........I'm not sure what you are saying. It would be the same as big Arnie being elected President of the US and only then a complaint being made that he was illegally elected because he wasn't born in the US. Thaksin (the puppeteer) isn't elected and he is banned isn't he? I'm sure the Dems could have filed a complaint that the PT party, or certain members, were acting illegally and at least then it wouldn't be seen as sour grapes.

Not at all like that. Arnie wouldn't have become Austrian during the election campaign. It would be something that was clear before he started campaigning. It would more similar to the claims that Obama wasn't born in the US.

If the Democrats had launched legal action in the last week of the campaign, would it have made any difference. It still wouldn't have been ruled on before the election and it still would have been seen as sour grapes.

Edited July 8, 2011 by whybother

[rixalex]

Look at the colleges they attended very far from the elite.

The colleges Thaksin and Yingluck attended were not a reflection of their family background, but rather their academic level.

Whilst studying in America, Thaksin was driving himself around in a Mercedes. Does that not tell you something? His family had the funds for him to study wherever he liked, but studying somewhere like Yale or Oxford requires something more than money.

[hardy1943]

Even you Thaksin-haters have to admit this is beyond arrogant. Pheua Thai wins a massive landslide victory, and the - quote - "Democrats" -unquote - want to have them banned?

Paraphrasing Bertolt Brecht, perhaps the Democrat party should just dissolve the Thai people, and elect another?

They can have another 20 more elections and name changes and the outcome be they same! I guess it must be a slap in the face being defeated by a woman and her older brother is Thaksin.

Edited July 8, 2011 by hardy1943

[jdinasia]

Really chaps... discussing who is right and wrong in a situation like this is akin to trying to untangle a mile of fine silk thread.

Frustrating, impossible, futile.

These constant references to justice and the law by senior and advanced members puzzle me.

Which country do they think they are living in?

It can't be Thailand.

Unless they they are in a hermatically sealed bubble... cut off from reality.

From the farmer to the prime minister, it's not what you know it's who you know and how much you can pay.

That is the reality.

This play has nothing to do with justice. never will.

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2010/08/14/unanimous-rejection-of-thaksin-asset-seizure-appeal/

If you think that is true ---- then why does the above article show that Thaksin couldn't even get a strong percentage of the S.C. behind him? He has the cash and the support and knows everyone .......

[jdinasia]

Look at the colleges they attended very far from the elite.

The colleges Thaksin and Yingluck attended were not a reflection of their family background, but rather their academic level.

Whilst studying in America, Thaksin was driving himself around in a Mercedes. Does that not tell you something? His family had the funds for him to study wherever he liked, but studying somewhere like Yale or Oxford requires something more than money.

Truly --- and GOOD state Unis in the US are not much more expensive than bad state Unis ... Did he study at UT in Texas? No .... UCLA? No.... etc etc

[whybother]

Even you Thaksin-haters have to admit this is beyond arrogant. Pheua Thai wins a massive landslide victory, and the - quote - "Democrats" -unquote - want to have them banned?

Paraphrasing Bertolt Brecht, perhaps the Democrat party should just dissolve the Thai people, and elect another?

With about 45% of the vote and about 55% of the MPs, it was a victory, but certainly not a "massive landslide victory".

[Nisa]

Thaksin's involvement is once again going to prevent any kind of reconciliation and insure more unrest.

The timing of this move by democrats is wrong and should have been done before but it really is a disgrace that the Reds / PT can flagrantly break the laws in terms of having Thaksin not only involved but clearly calling the shots.

Thaksin is the biggest threat to peace and reconciliation in Thailand. I don't care what you think about him or where you believe his interests lie but it is just not accepting reality if you believe things can move forward in Thailand with him involved in politics. His face and name is what is the true divide between Thais is. He evokes too much hatred on both sides.

I was hoping PT would get rid of him now that they have got into power but now that will not happen as long as the Democrats allow themselves to be the focus of their hatred and give them a cause to band together. However, I do believe the Democrats have ever right to do what they are doing but it is just very sad to see the country has stepped so far back in time because once again Thaksin cannot stop hurting Thailand for his own needs.

[renaissanc]

Democrats and its allies are the problem facing Thailand today.

I take your point, but it was so obvious that this was coming. It is so obvious that Thaksin has been running the show both before, during, and after the election. "Thaksin thinks, PT does", for example. It is like a shop lifter in a shop having a sign on himself that says, "I've come to steal from this shop." Of course, he'll get caught.

[Jingthing]

Even you Thaksin-haters have to admit this is beyond arrogant. Pheua Thai wins a massive landslide victory, and the - quote - "Democrats" -unquote - want to have them banned?

Paraphrasing Bertolt Brecht, perhaps the Democrat party should just dissolve the Thai people, and elect another?

With about 45% of the vote and about 55% of the MPs, it was a victory, but certainly not a "massive landslide victory".

Agreed! It was indeed a decisive victory at least. You would be generous to call it a landslide, but in no way was it a MASSIVE landslide. This matters because the Thaksinistas are pushing the line that they are so strong now because of their big landslide, when the reality is, their leader, Thaksin, still bitterly divides this country.

[whybother]

Even you Thaksin-haters have to admit this is beyond arrogant. Pheua Thai wins a massive landslide victory, and the - quote - "Democrats" -unquote - want to have them banned?

Paraphrasing Bertolt Brecht, perhaps the Democrat party should just dissolve the Thai people, and elect another?

They can have another 20 more elections and name changes and the outcome be they same! I guess it must be a slap in the face being defeated by a woman and her older brother is Thaksin.

If it's so easy for them, why do they need to keep breaking election laws?