Longer Trains Desperately Needed On The BTS Sukhumvit Line

[planr]

When a rail link, metro or any other type of connection is built anywhere in the world; there is a study made of the 'rider' numbers. Each year this increases hopefully and as more and more connections are added, then more trains or a more frequent service is planned. Of course; these figures can only be estimated on an average over the time. It is inevitable that rider figures are going to be high at the beginning of a new connection. Usually; these figures fall with time and then level to an average over the coming years.

BTS bases their requirements for travel on this average figure. Usually; the people who do this calculation are a very professional bunch of people who get the figure right, in the long run.

Gotta disagree with you Mark, you info about the train tech knowledge sounds good, not so great on the observation of BTS management,

I would call these muppets a lot of things but professional is not one of them.

They are adding 3 - 4 stations supposedly going online next year on the Silom line.

These "professional" BTS management and traffic engineers, are saying hey lets pack people on for 3 to 4 hours a day in dangerous conditions, because passenger traffic is likely to fall off and stabilize in the next 6 - 12 months on the Suk line.

Instead of saying, hey probably if traffic ever does fall off a bit on the Suk line, to a lower average, we will be just in time to shift those cars

over to the Silom line in anticipation of the surge when we those additional stations online.

An intern at the New York subway system could figure that one out, but then again that same kid might be over qualified as

MD for BTSC.

I talked to one guy at BTSC, although he was administration and not engineering, he was still about as clueless as you could get. He didn't even understand basic concepts like traffic growth on a line will increase exponentially not linearly when new stations are added.

I tried present simply that increasing 3 stations on a line with 6 existing stations, will not generate the same traffic growth,

as adding 3 stations on a line with 9 existing stations.

And estimating the growth patterns wouldn't require anything more than high school calculus.

1) What is dangerous about the current conditions? I admit to not witnessing the flow out on the extension yet, but the crowding in the trains here is no different that Singapore or Hong Kong or Tokyo at rush hour and I've yet to meet anyone who considers them unsafe. Uncomfortable sure, but unsafe, hardly.

2) Interns and low level staff in operations at the MTA (NYC's metro operator) are typically either going to grad school at a top university or have recently graduated from a top grad program in transport / planning. I know because many of my friends from my time in grad school (MIT) now work at the MTA. You are correct in the sense that they would be overqualified on paper for the BTSC, but unless you know the operations people here, don't be so quick to judge.

3) Admin is NOT operations. Admin is NOT operations. Repeat ad nauseam.

One would think that adding cars would be the logical solution.

First look at the design of those trains. The BTS Sukhumvit line has 3 short S curves and 4 long angle curves.

Adding more cars is not the answer. If they did the results will be bent wheels, broken axials and warped track then no train until repairs.

The Ital Thai strikes again. The Sky train designed by Japan in Manila is a good example of how to build one based on the idea to Stack-em and Pack-em they are over crowded too. But during Christmas they add 4 cars to each train because they can and it cost less than running extra trains which at times they do.

I don't think you understand how trains work. This video from the great Richard Feynman should help -

[DP25]

BTS isn't so crowded

[Tanlic]

I've been travelling on the BTS between Bagna and Ekamai every day for the last fortnight.

Today I was cramped like a sardine between 4 young university students.

I look forward to the day the Sky Train goes all the way to Buriram

[Kinnock]

Since the opening of the extension to Bearing I can now walk home from Siam to Nana quicker than the BTS at peak times. By the time I've watched 3 trains go due to overcrowding and then managed to squeeze into the 4th .... I can walk back.

[khaowong1]

" Last year Siemens, the maker of trains operating on the Sukhumvit Line, had agreed to provide additional trailer cars to its units, but it's unclear what happened to this arrangement, as BTS has made no recent mention of it."

Maybe because Siemens wouldn't pay the required hand out under the table?

[josephbloggs]

When it first opened, the Bangkok skytrain was a clean and fast alternative to the streets below, high quality travel.

Now it is dirty and overcrowded, almost as bad as the LRT in Manilla.

Dirty? How on earth can you say that? From my eyes it is pretty much spotlessly clean. Trains are clean, platforms are clean, stations are clean.

Why do so many people want to bash something that is genuinely excellent and worthy of praise? Especially by making ridiculously outrageous claims. Dirty? Really?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Ditto on that... I've never been on a dirty BTS Skytrain train, or an MRT one that I can recall, for that matter...

In fact, every day and night at the BTS stations I frequent, and I do mean EVERY day, they have female janitors mopping the floors, cleaning the escalators, washing the panels, etc etc.. And I assume they do likewise with the rail cars during their off service hours.

Keeping the BTS and MRT stations and railcars clean is at least one thing that the authorities in charge seem to have no trouble accomplishing.

[Cuban]

Lots of words - how about a picture ????

[stanley2550]

It never ceases to amaze me why crowds of thai people stand directly in front of the doors than on the sides which are clearly marked, trying to rush in while people are trying to get out.

Edited September 5, 2011 by stanley2550

[bkkjames]

It never ceases to amaze me why crowds of thai people stand directly in front of the doors than on the sides which are clearly marked, trying to rush in while people are trying to get out.

Its called elevator syndrom.

[hhgz]

"BTS has announced that it will tackle the overcrowding by adding two trains to its rush-hour schedule. That's right, not adding two cars to each train, not even adding two trains per hour - adding just two extra trains during an entire rush-hour period."

Once again, The Nation - and many in TVland - either did not read, or did not understand the article. "Adding two trains" is completely different from "adding two cars per train".

[soidog52]

It's bloody dangerous at Siam at rush hour, soooo many people on the platform that people struggle to GET OFF the trians, never mind get on.

Like most things here it will probably take something bad to happen before it is changed, like an accident. I can forsee too many people on the platform, and people getting pushed onto the lines.

I was out with my 10 year old son on Sunday coming back to Suk from MBK. As we exited the train at Siam, the usual dopes tried to immediately board the full train before anyone could get off. An older Thai lady was the first one to rush to get on board and came right at my son and I. I had a hold of his shirt to keep track of him and she tried to split between my son and I. I held on tight and she could not pass. She got drug back and out of the exit path along with us. She started screaming and slapping me in the face and arms. It was actually quite hilarious. After her fit, she proceeded to jump right back in the mix and started slapping other people exiting the train. My son though it was very funny. I thought it was quite rude.

Agree on all points. Get a clue before someone gets killed.

[lomatopo]

Lots of words - how about a picture ????

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=83245585&postcount=1835

http://www.flickr.com/photos/vikatw/6101492961/sizes/l/in/photostream/

[annilicious]

FYI, there was a lady blacked out in front of me during the trip to Plenchit this morning,

she flop down astoundingly while the door were opening.

me and other 2 ladies tried to help her up through the crowd who were pile off from the train carelessly.

worse than that, the BTS guard was just look at us without any help.

anybody heard about Thailand is the land of wide heart people? .......................definitely not in this situation.

In my opinion, I don’t think it’s not the BTS problem but people,some of them can’t even wait for another 3 minutes for the next train, some ofthem just try to get in the train even if they know it’s impossible. Etc.

Edited September 6, 2011 by annilicious

[SantiSuk]

It never ceases to amaze me why crowds of thai people stand directly in front of the doors than on the sides which are clearly marked, trying to rush in while people are trying to get out.

Its called elevator syndrom.

At the risk of being barred for racial stereotyping I have to say that in my opinion Thais are incredibly discourteous and selfish when it comes to queueing and driving. They are not alone in that as a nation but, love it or hate it, the UK still has a level of public politeness which outshines the so-called land of Smiles (ok Brits don't smile a lot, but they are more polite than the Thais). By and large Brits stand aside and let people off the tube first (not always) and of course the neat diagonal lines for the Waterloo and City line trains are legendary. I'm sure there are many other nations that are equally polite, so go ahead and give a plug for your country of origin if you like.

If you don't believe me about Thais and politeness, next time you are getting off a domestic Thai flight turn to face the disembarking passengers and look expectantly that someone will allow you to go off before them. Betya it's a foreigner that lets you go first .

PS, love Thais and love Thailand - just not everything about them/it.

[Payboy]

using trains designed for service in........an amusement park

Bangkok isn't?

[theoldgit]

By and large Brits stand aside and let people off the tube first (not always) and of course the neat diagonal lines for the Waterloo and City line trains are legendary. I'm sure there are many other nations that are equally polite, so go ahead and give a plug for your country of origin if you like.

That was certainly not my experience of commuting through London a few years ago, it was everyone one for themselves.

I have noticed that Thais normally wait in line on the BTS stations, of course as soon as the train actually gets in then many of them barge forward.

[infernalman7]

Buying Siemens means longer manufacturing times. But at least you get quality trains that are compatible with existing system.

Thanks for the interesting comments, Infernalman....

I was thinking during this thread's discussion, I'd LOVE to be a fly on the wall in the Siemens company and know what they really think about Thailand...

Recall the episode of the past year on the Airport Rail Link line where they had to shut down service temporarily because Siemens train parts were wearing out prematurely and the ARL/SRT supposedly didn't have enough funds to buy enough spare parts to keep in stock (perhaps in conjunction with the issue of WHY the parts were wearing out early and what/who was responsible for that, which has never been publicly explained).

Then, probably earlier in time, there was the BTS's decision to skip ordering the Silom trains from Siemens and instead go with the Chinese trains and all the operating problems that created. .... But now, BTS apparently is back to Siemens again for the future Sukhumvit line trains....

Something tells me, the German and Thai corporate cultures might not always mesh so well together...

Not forgetting, meanwhile, the recent episode with a jet aircraft that was impounded in Germany by the courts there because of a supposedly long unpaid public works road construction contract obligation in Bangkok....

Don't mix different issues up.

Siemens would love Thailand for a very long time. With all the metro system expansions, and with the familiarity that the Thais have with their trains, they will stick around for a long long time. (Not to mention, Blue Line, Purple Line and ARL Expansion will be using Siemens for sure).

Regards to ARL temporary shut down, it was Siemens Thailand fault. Currently Airport Link isn't exactly running the trains themselves. It's still under Siemens until March 2012. Anything that is wrong, it falls under Siemens responsibility. (Even though it's ARL staff driving the trains, Siemens are still in the phase of training them).

As for the jet aircraft, that isn't something I can comment on as I have absolutely no knowledge nor interests about that incident.

[infernalman7]

When it first opened, the Bangkok skytrain was a clean and fast alternative to the streets below, high quality travel.

Now it is dirty and overcrowded, almost as bad as the LRT in Manilla.

Dirty? How on earth can you say that? From my eyes it is pretty much spotlessly clean. Trains are clean, platforms are clean, stations are clean.

Why do so many people want to bash something that is genuinely excellent and worthy of praise? Especially by making ridiculously outrageous claims. Dirty? Really?

Part of the reason why Thai metro systems are kept quite clean in comparison to other systems around the world is that they forbid eating or drinking on trains and paid areas of the station. It helps a lot.

Coffee spills everywhere in London's Tube. Something TfL could learn from Thailand perhaps.

[infernalman7]

By and large Brits stand aside and let people off the tube first (not always) and of course the neat diagonal lines for the Waterloo and City line trains are legendary. I'm sure there are many other nations that are equally polite, so go ahead and give a plug for your country of origin if you like.

That was certainly not my experience of commuting through London a few years ago, it was everyone one for themselves.

I have noticed that Thais normally wait in line on the BTS stations, of course as soon as the train actually gets in then many of them barge forward.

It's the same everywhere. Even the Brits. Try Circle Line or Piccadilly Line during rush hours, you'll learn to love BTS.

Rush hours = the same everywhere. Nice people can't survive if they try to be nice all the time. To be honest, it only takes one rude person to make everyone else feels like they're also entitled to do the same as everyone's rushing to work!

I find almost 100% of the time when it isn't rush hours, Thais do respect this little social rule. It's often tourists who do not seem to respect it much.

Edited September 6, 2011 by infernalman7

[corkman]

The BTS also seems to have overlooked the additional passenger numbers on their trains due to the connection to the Airport Rail link at Phyathai station. A lot of these passengers also carry bulky luggage with them which makes the congestion in the carriges even worse. Add to this cattle transport conditions the ongoing lack of elevators from road level to the ticket concourse, the BTS must be one of the least user-friendly mass transit system in the world.

Airport Link - there is a commuter train and an aiport train. If a passenger is bringing anything that resembles a suitcase between 7am to 9am and 5pm to 7pm, they should not be allowed to use the commuter train. Often you will see a couple standing each with a parge suitcase and back-pack bags too..... taking up the standing space of about 10 people. It should not be allowed just some some cheap-skate can save 50 baht (preventing 8-10 local people getting to work or getting home to their families.

Suitacases should not be allowed on the BTS / MRT, full stop.

I would go as far as to say that people with large back packs should be made to pay double. I am conscious of carry a lap-top bag ..... some of the people getting on the trains have such large bags that they take up two standing spaces; moreover they move around swinging their back pack like some kind of club tailed dinosaur which is both annoying and uncomfortable for a man, but for some of the slight frame ladies, and kids that get on the train it is more than unpleasent getting a back ack rammed into your face.

All train services have security guards standing around doing sod all just blowing whistles..... make them stand at the turnstyles and prevent "luggage" being brought on the trains - especially during rush hour.

Finally - mothers with kids in buggies ..... I would be grant them a dispensation from my above rant, however there is a very real danger of large adult falling or being pushed on top of a child or infant. There is no politcally correct solution to that, but if its not safe then don't allow it - firstly for the safety of the poor kid, and secondly for the guilt that would be thrust upon the poor sod that squashes the kid.

[Searat7]

Ditto on that... I've never been on a dirty BTS Skytrain train, or an MRT one that I can recall, for that matter...

In fact, every day and night at the BTS stations I frequent, and I do mean EVERY day, they have female janitors mopping the floors, cleaning the escalators, washing the panels, etc etc.. And I assume they do likewise with the rail cars during their off service hours.

Keeping the BTS and MRT stations and railcars clean is at least one thing that the authorities in charge seem to have no trouble accomplishing.

The trains are spotless but the floor/stair areas of most stations became filthy a long time ago. Periodic power washing would have made a big difference.

[F4UCorsair]

Bad as many think the BTS Sky Train may be, it is a great transport system and one that many Australian commuters wish we had in the larger cities in this country. I know that doesn't make commuting in BKK any easier though.

[Madhatter]

I am attaching a picture here of projected new trains and services for the Sukhumvit line.....

[Payboy]

Suitacases should not be allowed on the BTS / MRT, full stop.

Have even seen folks boarding the BTS with their bicycle.

[Lakegeneve]

When it first opened, the Bangkok skytrain was a clean and fast alternative to the streets below, high quality travel.

Now it is dirty and overcrowded, almost as bad as the LRT in Manilla.

Dirty? How on earth can you say that? From my eyes it is pretty much spotlessly clean. Trains are clean, platforms are clean, stations are clean.

Why do so many people want to bash something that is genuinely excellent and worthy of praise? Especially by making ridiculously outrageous claims. Dirty? Really?

I thought that davee58 was joking when he wrote this as the LRT 1 and MRT 3 lines are pitiful cleaniness wise compared to the BTS. The LRT 2 line being much newer is much better but I still would say it is not as clean as the BTS which is spotless. Both are overcrowded but at least the BTS have heavy rolling stock unlike the light rail style rolling stock on LRT1/MRT3

[Lakegeneve]

Buying Siemens means longer manufacturing times. But at least you get quality trains that are compatible with existing system.

Thanks for the interesting comments, Infernalman....

I was thinking during this thread's discussion, I'd LOVE to be a fly on the wall in the Siemens company and know what they really think about Thailand...

Recall the episode of the past year on the Airport Rail Link line where they had to shut down service temporarily because Siemens train parts were wearing out prematurely and the ARL/SRT supposedly didn't have enough funds to buy enough spare parts to keep in stock (perhaps in conjunction with the issue of WHY the parts were wearing out early and what/who was responsible for that, which has never been publicly explained).

Then, probably earlier in time, there was the BTS's decision to skip ordering the Silom trains from Siemens and instead go with the Chinese trains and all the operating problems that created. .... But now, BTS apparently is back to Siemens again for the future Sukhumvit line trains....

Something tells me, the German and Thai corporate cultures might not always mesh so well together...

Not forgetting, meanwhile, the recent episode with a jet aircraft that was impounded in Germany by the courts there because of a supposedly long unpaid public works road construction contract obligation in Bangkok....

Don't mix different issues up.

Siemens would love Thailand for a very long time. With all the metro system expansions, and with the familiarity that the Thais have with their trains, they will stick around for a long long time. (Not to mention, Blue Line, Purple Line and ARL Expansion will be using Siemens for sure).

Siemans wanted, and still want, to build a local assembly plant in Thailand for metro rolling stock given the anticipated demand for some a few hundred rolling stock once all lines are built by 2029. Here is an extract fropm a Sept 09 article;

At the same time, Siemens has proposed to the government a plan to build a train assembly plant in Thailand. The company has started talking to potential local

partners to jointly develop the project, which would require a critical mass of more than 100 train carriages to make it a viable business. The Blue and Purple lines will require about 75 carriages each which would make local train assembly facility feasible.

Also, the company has begun looking for possibilities to source train parts and components from local suppliers if possible. "We will source parts locally as much as we can," he said, adding that wheels, signalling and braking systems, and other high-technology components would be imported as there is no local producers existed.

Note that tenders for rolling stock for the Purple Line due to come into operation in early 2013 have been released by the MRTA.

[Lakegeneve]

Adding more cars is not the answer. If they did the results will be bent wheels, broken axials and warped track then no train until repairs.

Maybe you'd better inform BTS of your suspicions, because they seem to have a different idea...

Berlin, Germany, 2010-Nov-22

Bangkok Mass Transit System Public Company Limited (BTSC) has placed a EUR42 million order with Siemens Mobility for another 35 trailer cars for the Thai capital's elevated rapid transit system, BTS Skytrain. Train service on the Sukhumvit Line is to start gradually from the end of 2012.

The newly ordered trailer cars are to be put into service successively on the Sukhumvit Line as of the end of 2012 and lengthen the trains already in operation from 3-car to 4-car multiple units. This increase in capacity is necessary in order to cope with the dramatic rise in ridership. Currently, the BTS system transports about 460,000 people per day on the Sukhumvit Line. Each car has 4seats and standing room for 240 persons. The 750 V DC power supply comes from the conductor rail. The trailer cars are to be pre-assembled at the Siemens plant in Vienna, Austria and undergo final assembly in Bangkok. The delivery of these cars is to continue into 2013.

This is correct, The BTSC will receive the 35 extra cars progressively from Jan 12 - which I expect will end up being March 2012 onwards. Originally the delivery period was going to be 24 months but I guess Siemens is stating in the that all 35 single cars will be dleivered by the end of 2012 which will be great. However, somehow I doubt that all 35 units will have 4 cars by the end of 2012 but we'll see. (Remember that the WWY to Phetkasem rd/ Bang Wah ext is also due to open on 5 Dec 2012)

I gave a brief overview as to why there has been a significant delay in purchasing new rolling stock by the BTSC lines on the main Bearing ext thread, http://www.thaivisa....00#entry4650940

It wasn't for a lack of want, it was due to a lack of dosh. This is the problem with having a private operator. The original plan circa 99 called for extra rolling stock by 03/04 when it was originally thought the WWY ext would opne and works would commence on the Chongsi to Rama III ext and the Mo Chit to Kaset ext.

However, BTSC didn't have the funds due to a singificant amount of debt and of course due to a combination of Thaksin wanting to nationalise the BTSC and the WWY ext being delayed, no exts were completed for a few years. BTSC thought they could purchase new rolling stock in 05 but they had to complete a debt restructuring which took some time so it was not until 07 that the 12 CNR sets were ordered.

Delivery was meant to be Jan 09 which was delayed until Oct 09 which was delayed further until June 10 and finally they eventually went into service at the end of 2010.

The BMCL (operator of the subway/MRT) has a similar lack of funds due to debt servicing and has twice deferred pruchasing new rolling stock since 07.

The SRT also wants to purchase 4 more Cityline sets to go with the current 5 so that it can increase the frequency of the service but funds have yet to be allocated.

In short, if you are feeling the squeeze on the BTS, MRT or Cityline it is due to all 3 operators not having enough funds to purchase new stock.

It highlights why having multiple private operators with an unintergrated ticketing system is a stupid operating model. PT is considering intergrating all in order to fulfill their unrealistic 20 baht flat fare election promise. I seriously doubt they will get to do either.

[Lakegeneve]

One other brief issue to mention. The current overcrowding is but a relatively brief period which all will have to endure as it could have been much worse to the extent that we would all be used to it by now.

Consider this, the original BMA timeframe for the Bearing ext to open was at the end of 2009. Had that timeframe been met - and the reason for the 18 month delay is noted in a post above - it would have meant that not only would everyone have been using an overcrowed Sukhumvit line for the last 20 months but also that for all of 2010 there would have been only 23 sets less given a few are always at the depot for maintainence etc) to use for the line prior to the running of the 12 CNR sets on the SIlom line.

Think about that scenario. For all of 2010, only 12 3 cars sets on the SIlom line and 23 sets on the Suk line to service the same numbers (May ave. over 510K a day with expected 15% growth post Bearing ext opening) in next we see on both lines today!

THAT operating scenario would have made the current 1 month pain seem meaningless.

Also, whatever respite will come with the extra carriages progressively deliver through 2012 will be temporary once the BMA funded WWY to Bang Wah (Phetkasem rd) ext opens on 5 Dec 2012 (a contractually strict and achievable timeframe for the contractor) as some sets will need to be moved to the Silom line given the expected extra 100k of pax a day!

BTSC have said that they will purchase 5 extra sets of rolling stock if they are awarded the contract by the BMA to run the ext (highly likely).

On top of all of this is the PT's absurd policy promise to introduce a flat 20 baht fare on all metro lines. They will need to nationalise all lines to achieve it and if it is ever implemented one would expect pax numbers to jump significantly somewhat contingent on if fares and services on other modes of transport are changed.

[kumsamut]

it costs so much to travel around bkk.