Bangkok: Huge Turnout Expected At Red-Shirt Rally Today

[jayboy]

Thank you for your suggestion on reading up about Europe to understand what is happening in thailand, perhaps you can list a few that you think has helped you understand the situation here.

Interesting area.It is beyond doubt that political developments in Thailand echo, repeat or otherwise reflect the course of history elsewhere - not only in Europe but also in Asia.There is some resistance to this comparitive approach by those who believe in Thai exceptionalism.In other words those who believe that Thailand is so unusual and socially/culturally esoteric that it has its own quite distinct destiny (which naturally foreigners cannot understand).Given the nature of this forum I doubt whether this type of discussion can be held productively.It would be considered off topic.

[rubl]

Thank you for your suggestion on reading up about Europe to understand what is happening in thailand, perhaps you can list a few that you think has helped you understand the situation here.

Interesting area.It is beyond doubt that political developments in Thailand echo, repeat or otherwise reflect the course of history elsewhere - not only in Europe but also in Asia.There is some resistance to this comparitive approach by those who believe in Thai exceptionalism.In other words those who believe that Thailand is so unusual and socially/culturally esoteric that it has its own quite distinct destiny (which naturally foreigners cannot understand).Given the nature of this forum I doubt whether this type of discussion can be held productively.It would be considered off topic.

As the topic is "huge turnout expected" and we've been discussing other things, you might be excused. Mind you, given the nature of the posters I doubt the discussion will be really productive in things other than posts

I've tried to move back on topic, but the prospect of 'huge turnout' and the eventual 'real turnout' seems to suffer from 'lack of interest'. Maybe we should move to one of these topics?

http://www.thaivisa....ll-for-justice/

http://www.thaivisa....ll-for-justice/

http://www.thaivisa....-key-red-shirt/

http://www.thaivisa....onist-websites/

Edited May 24, 2012 by rubl

[Insight]

But did you ever talk about Thaksin with the Red Shirt devotees? Surely they would have been happy to talk about him with you. Or is what they said about Thaksin too embarrassing for you to discuss with us here, as we would just laugh?

You'll find most red sympathisers are generally much less happy discussing Thaksin and his role in all of this, than they used to be, back in those heady days when they were still defending him. Still remain a few stragglers who take it upon themselves to argue against the rising tide of contradicting information and evidence, but they are in the minority. The rest have come to the sorry realisation that that particular fight is a lost cause. Talking about him can only weaken their argument. The strategy now is to avoid discussions of him at all cost, and to pretend that he is no longer relevant or important, despite the fact that at every red gathering, his face and name can be seen everywhere you turn.

Despite rumblings of discontent, he still remains massively popular with the vast majority of red shirts, and you'll see this should he ever pluck up the courage to return as he will receive a heroes welcome, even from those who now express some dissent. Almost to a man, they'll fall dutifully back in line in fear that to not do so, might mean missing out on whatever rewards he dishes out, or even worse, be on the receiving end of some punishment.

How visible was his image throughout this most recent red shirt rally?

This much

But I guess he's just copying a very tried and tested formulae here in Thaila.

[ballpoint]

Thank you for your suggestion on reading up about Europe to understand what is happening in thailand, perhaps you can list a few that you think has helped you understand the situation here.

Interesting area.It is beyond doubt that political developments in Thailand echo, repeat or otherwise reflect the course of history elsewhere - not only in Europe but also in Asia.There is some resistance to this comparitive approach by those who believe in Thai exceptionalism.In other words those who believe that Thailand is so unusual and socially/culturally esoteric that it has its own quite distinct destiny (which naturally foreigners cannot understand).Given the nature of this forum I doubt whether this type of discussion can be held productively.It would be considered off topic.

Yes, history repeats, but few are those who learn from it. "Of all kinds of credulity, the most obstinate and wonderful is that of political zealots; of men, who being numbered, they know not how or why, in any of the parties that divide a state, resign the use of their own eyes and ears, and resolve to believe nothing that does not favour those whom they profess to follow.

The bigot of philosophy is seduced by authorities which he has not always opportunities to examine, is entangled in systems by which truth and falsehood are inextricably complicated, or undertakes to talk on subjects which nature did not form him able to comprehend". Aptly put for the current state of affairs.

http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/29967/

[gand]

Thank you for your suggestion on reading up about Europe to understand what is happening in thailand, perhaps you can list a few that you think has helped you understand the situation here.

Interesting area.It is beyond doubt that political developments in Thailand echo, repeat or otherwise reflect the course of history elsewhere - not only in Europe but also in Asia.There is some resistance to this comparitive approach by those who believe in Thai exceptionalism.In other words those who believe that Thailand is so unusual and socially/culturally esoteric that it has its own quite distinct destiny (which naturally foreigners cannot understand).Given the nature of this forum I doubt whether this type of discussion can be held productively.It would be considered off topic.

Germany, China, N Korea and Cambodia perhaps?

Edited May 24, 2012 by gand

[jayboy]

Thank you for your suggestion on reading up about Europe to understand what is happening in thailand, perhaps you can list a few that you think has helped you understand the situation here.

Interesting area.It is beyond doubt that political developments in Thailand echo, repeat or otherwise reflect the course of history elsewhere - not only in Europe but also in Asia.There is some resistance to this comparitive approach by those who believe in Thai exceptionalism.In other words those who believe that Thailand is so unusual and socially/culturally esoteric that it has its own quite distinct destiny (which naturally foreigners cannot understand).Given the nature of this forum I doubt whether this type of discussion can be held productively.It would be considered off topic.

Germany, China, N Korea and Cambodia perhaps?

Actually I wasn't thinking so much of direct historic parallels, more the social forces and the emergence of class consciousness that every society experiences sooner or later..In this context the United Kingsom, the United States (another bastion of the flawed unique status argument) and France would be just as relevant to Thailand.

On Ballpoint's comment (nice quote by the way), yes and no.One can learn from history but history never repeats itself in precisely the same way - and what is more only the very wise draw the correct conclusions.

As far as this forum is concerned one shouldn't be too ambitious and realistically the really well informed and intelligent debate isn't going to take place here (look at the way the usual suspects harrass anyone out of their class like Nick Nostitz).What the forum has however going for itself is its liveliness.

[Buchholz]

But did you ever talk about Thaksin with the Red Shirt devotees? Surely they would have been happy to talk about him with you. Or is what they said about Thaksin too embarrassing for you to discuss with us here, as we would just laugh?

You'll find most red sympathisers are generally much less happy discussing Thaksin and his role in all of this, than they used to be, back in those heady days when they were still defending him. Still remain a few stragglers who take it upon themselves to argue against the rising tide of contradicting information and evidence, but they are in the minority. The rest have come to the sorry realisation that that particular fight is a lost cause. Talking about him can only weaken their argument. The strategy now is to avoid discussions of him at all cost, and to pretend that he is no longer relevant or important, despite the fact that at every red gathering, his face and name can be seen everywhere you turn.

Despite rumblings of discontent, he still remains massively popular with the vast majority of red shirts, and you'll see this should he ever pluck up the courage to return as he will receive a heroes welcome, even from those who now express some dissent. Almost to a man, they'll fall dutifully back in line in fear that to not do so, might mean missing out on whatever rewards he dishes out, or even worse, be on the receiving end of some punishment.

How visible was his image throughout this most recent red shirt rally?

This much

But I guess he's just copying a very tried and tested formulae here in Thailand.

Enjoyed the poor, rural farmer Red Shirts enjoying their refreshments at Starbucks while tapping on their iPads...

[GentlemanJim]

But did you ever talk about Thaksin with the Red Shirt devotees? Surely they would have been happy to talk about him with you. Or is what they said about Thaksin too embarrassing for you to discuss with us here, as we would just laugh?

You'll find most red sympathisers are generally much less happy discussing Thaksin and his role in all of this, than they used to be, back in those heady days when they were still defending him. Still remain a few stragglers who take it upon themselves to argue against the rising tide of contradicting information and evidence, but they are in the minority. The rest have come to the sorry realisation that that particular fight is a lost cause. Talking about him can only weaken their argument. The strategy now is to avoid discussions of him at all cost, and to pretend that he is no longer relevant or important, despite the fact that at every red gathering, his face and name can be seen everywhere you turn.

Despite rumblings of discontent, he still remains massively popular with the vast majority of red shirts, and you'll see this should he ever pluck up the courage to return as he will receive a heroes welcome, even from those who now express some dissent. Almost to a man, they'll fall dutifully back in line in fear that to not do so, might mean missing out on whatever rewards he dishes out, or even worse, be on the receiving end of some punishment.

How visible was his image throughout this most recent red shirt rally?

This much

But I guess he's just copying a very tried and tested formulae here in Thailand.

Enjoyed the poor, rural farmer Red Shirts enjoying their refreshments at Starbucks while tapping on their iPads...

I want to start a sweepstake as to when and who the first person will be to say "have you got evidence of your claims, have you got links"?

[metisdead]

I don't want to start a debate here as it's clearly off topic,

An off topic post and a reply have been removed.

[metisdead]

A troll post of hyperbolic proportions has been removed as well as the relevant replies.

[gand]

Red shirts seem to be taking the path of the 'Khmer Rouge'?

Would you like to expand upon that statement. Which particular part of their approach is similar to the Khmer Rouge. Are the conditions right for another Khmer Rouge? Why would they think that was their best way forward? I'd love to hear your views. Otherwise I'd just write it of as a one line B/S attempt at pleasing your peers.

They should be choosing the path of the Dalai Lama or Gandhi, protest peacefully, then you have the media and all the nations that matter on your side, take the path of violence, even while lying about being peaceful, is being the same as your oppressors, meet the new boss, same as the old boss, regardless, you have to win the publicity war.

[bigbamboo]

I would like to know in your position as a reporter why is it never mentioned how and why the armed peaceful protest that included a invasion of a hospital was started.

Why is it always made out to look like the Government was in the wrong.

Your reasoning for this as a professional would be appreciated.

I think especially in the case of the Chula hospital invasion it has generally been reported that the Red Shirts were clearly in the wrong, and even the Red Shirts have publicly acknowledged this (see Dr. Weng's apology).

Nevertheless, while the Red Shirt's invasion was out of order, it should not be forgotten that the government placed soldiers in the hospital (Matichon has published photos at the time), which is also wrong.

Should not any gov't place soldiers to protect helpless patients from red shirt criminals attacking them?

You would have thought any responsible government would have considered it their duty to protect innocent civilians where necessary from any mob, political or otherwise.

Edited May 24, 2012 by bigbamboo

[phiphidon]

Red shirts seem to be taking the path of the 'Khmer Rouge'?

Would you like to expand upon that statement. Which particular part of their approach is similar to the Khmer Rouge. Are the conditions right for another Khmer Rouge? Why would they think that was their best way forward? I'd love to hear your views. Otherwise I'd just write it of as a one line B/S attempt at pleasing your peers.

They should be choosing the path of the Dalai Lama or Gandhi, protest peacefully, then you have the media and all the nations that matter on your side, take the path of violence, even while lying about being peaceful, is being the same as your oppressors, meet the new boss, same as the old boss, regardless, you have to win the publicity war.

And there was I thinking you'd answer my question. In fact, you have.

[metisdead]

Troll postings have increased and have been removed.

[Siripon]

Thaksin summed it up himself concisely on Saturday.

'You, the red shirts,have carried me across the river in a boat,(rioted and won the election for me), now I must climb the mountain,(rewrite the constitution and\or and pass a law absolving me of all my crimes using Parliament).There's no need to carry a boat up a mountain,( go home, no need to rally anymore, you've served your purpose).

Edited May 24, 2012 by Siripon

[bigbamboo]

Thaksin summed it up himself concisely on Saturday.

'You, the red shirts,have carried me across the river in a boat,(rioted and won the election for me), now I must climb the mountain,(rewrite the constitution and\or and pass a law absolving me of all my crimes using Parliament).There's no need to carry a boat up a mountain,( go home, no need to rally anymore, you've served your purpose).

There's no need to carry a boat up the mountain. The floods will do that for you.

[lungmi]

To Nick:

The ethics of a "war photographer" is to take photos of conflicts in the world as documentary.

Interpretations are outside. You don't have journalist certification (even proud of this).

You speak unfavorable about Crispin, who has more knowledge about Thai culture and Politics.

Try to acquire this knowledge, then you can open your mouth.

[volk666]

I don't want to start a debate here as it's clearly off topic,

An off topic post and a reply have been removed.

Oh sh*t, missed the answer...

>>>

Lungmi, Nick's been around for a while and mostly with common people, not in typical farang circles, he knows Thai culture inside out and have a healthy doze of respect for many many aspects of it.

He earned the right to talk, even though I rarely agree with his opinions and never bothered to argue with him on New Mandala where he is regular.

This thread is not about him, though, but his observations are very much on topic and should be counted even when you/we think he is wrong.

Red shirts (sadly) are very much a part of the Thai society, no one has the right to disown them no matter how unappealing they appear.

[thaicbr]

1. The so what is that however complex the relationship, they have effectively functioned as his street protest group. How he achived that should be a subject worthy of any journalist, academic or commetator, you choosing to ignore that aspect is fine, but you trying to minimise its imporatance is what makes you look highly biased.

2. No shit sherlock.

3. This is exactly what has people concerned, there seems to be so much hatred washing around, and now dozens hae died, how will these changes manifest themselves.

He (and others) funded the Red Shirts - again: so what? Every protest group and social movement needs funding and budgets. I have many images how ordinary protesters donated not just their time, but also their money. I have images of people putting money into donation boxes, how they bought seats at tables at fund raising dinner events. The theory of Thaksin's bought protesters does simply not stand up to reality. But to see this one has to leave the aircon office and go into the communities.

What is far more interesting is how Red Shirts transformed themselves over the course over these few years, how they developed from a small anti-coup movement, how certain key events formed the progress of their political ideology and structural changes. Thaksin's interaction is but one aspect. I believe that ignoring the grassroots aspects of this conflict would be not just "biased", but a distortion of the nature of this conflict.

How the future will manifest itself will be interesting to see, and depends on many factors. I would suggest to study the development of many European countries if you want to see the different possible ways this here in Thailand may take.

Personally I have no problem with grass roots communitys. And I honestly hope that sooner rather than later they see that they have been taken for a ride. I also hope that they are self sustaining. For if they are going to flourish and actually help the poor they will need to cast of the shackles that Thaksin has placed on them. They also need to rethink some of the leadership (jatuporn and nattuwatt spring to mind)

Losing some of the divisive red / Communist propaganda tools ie red villages and training camps would also be a good idea.

Rearrange it into farm cooperatives and regional knowledge centers (agriculture ideas not socialist ideals) therefore helping themselves rather than expecting government hand outs.

That's the way forward. If they do not act soon the staple agriculture here in Thailand will be devastated. Already Vietnam Is producing similar quality rice at a cheaper cost per rai AND about double the quantity per rai.

This is the information they need .. not what some greedy power hungry billionaire will do to help them... because I can tell you now. He will promise the stars and deliver the vacuum in space (eg sod all)

Sent from my GT-P1010 using Thaivisa Connect App

Edited May 24, 2012 by thaicbr

[bigbamboo]

A lot of what you have written here is baseless speculation - you know nothing about the violence that has occurred other than what you have read in news stories. You haven't been there, nor have you any idea about who organized what. I cannot work on the level of speculation - i have to investigate, find evidence, and be open when i do not have enough evidence, and can't just replace evidence with speculation.

I followed the 2010 events closely by continuously reading news from a wide range of sources on the internet. I was also watching the television news, which was being broadcast all day. I don't see much wrong with learning about events in this way. The news and images came from people who were in the field like yourself, so what news readers and watchers learned from it may only have been as good as the source. You were probably too occupied on the street each day, and exhausted each night, to have been able to spend much time to read and analyze the events, so you may not have had as wider an understanding of the events as those who had spent most of each day digesting news, commentary and analyses from many different sources. I don't blame you, as I know that you were in difficult and chaotic situations which may have affected your mental abilities, but I'm just highlighting the large difference in perspectives at the time.

You do take it as a fact that Thaksin has organized the violence. Where is you evidence? Where are your sources?

I base it on the many things that I have read and thought about during and after the 2010 events as well as logical deduction. There were military weapons. Military weapons are illegal to even posses by civilians, and they require trained people to use, so there must have been a supplier for both the weapons and militants. Such arrangements are way out of the league of ordinary grassroots people, so it is highly likely that people at elite levels with the right military connections had organized military weapons and their use.

Here is some material supporting my claim that Thaksin was the "big boss" of the 2010 protests and riots:

Chuan: Bangkok violence pre-planned abroad

From Coalition backs road map, undecided on banned politicians:

Red-shirt supporter Maj-General Khattiya "Seh Daeng" Sawasdipol claimed that former premier Thaksin Shinawatra was the only individual who could order an end to the protest.

I don't think anyone can say for certain that it was Thaksin who organised the red shirt violence.

What they can say is that the individuals who carried out the violence were there with his blessing.

Edited May 24, 2012 by bigbamboo

[hellodolly]

Bad horsey bad horsey

[yeeowww]

Are you kidding me "PP" ?! You just felt compelled to retort with something even if it was as banal as that, scoffing at me because my life has been destroyed because of that jerk Thaksin. Of course it's personal! What about this entire epic catastrophe to Thailand hasn't been personal to each and every person who lives here? All of our lives have been thrown into a tailspin because of him. Hmmm... I wonder if it was personal to any of the rally attendees? I beg you to go ask every single one who went if they were there for personal reasons! Geez... If you can't add something intelligent to the point, please don't say anything at all.

May I ask what specifically caused the problems with your business that can be attributed to Taksin etc?. Genuine question.

Genuine answer: The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country, thereby mortally crippling my business which is 85% reliant on tourism. Now what else about simple business in Thailand don't you understand and I need to clarify further? All of you arrogant <deleted>**s make me ill. You have bank accounts to float on while you judge from your easy chair what should and shouldn't be in a land you come to nest in. I dare you to get out there and try to make a decent living in the midst of this Shinawatra born muck and tell me how great the imposter and greedy bastard is... and you would just as soon spit on him as I would.

[mca]

Are you kidding me "PP" ?! You just felt compelled to retort with something even if it was as banal as that, scoffing at me because my life has been destroyed because of that jerk Thaksin. Of course it's personal! What about this entire epic catastrophe to Thailand hasn't been personal to each and every person who lives here? All of our lives have been thrown into a tailspin because of him. Hmmm... I wonder if it was personal to any of the rally attendees? I beg you to go ask every single one who went if they were there for personal reasons! Geez... If you can't add something intelligent to the point, please don't say anything at all.

May I ask what specifically caused the problems with your business that can be attributed to Taksin etc?. Genuine question.

Now what else about simple business in Thailand don't you understand and I need to clarify further? All of you arrogant <deleted>**s make me ill. .

I certainly hope that wasn't aimed at me.

[nurofiend]

Are you kidding me "PP" ?! You just felt compelled to retort with something even if it was as banal as that, scoffing at me because my life has been destroyed because of that jerk Thaksin. Of course it's personal! What about this entire epic catastrophe to Thailand hasn't been personal to each and every person who lives here? All of our lives have been thrown into a tailspin because of him. Hmmm... I wonder if it was personal to any of the rally attendees? I beg you to go ask every single one who went if they were there for personal reasons! Geez... If you can't add something intelligent to the point, please don't say anything at all.

May I ask what specifically caused the problems with your business that can be attributed to Taksin etc?. Genuine question.

Genuine answer: The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country, thereby mortally crippling my business which is 85% reliant on tourism. Now what else about simple business in Thailand don't you understand and I need to clarify further? All of you arrogant <deleted>**s make me ill. You have bank accounts to float on while you judge from your easy chair what should and shouldn't be in a land you come to nest in. I dare you to get out there and try to make a decent living in the midst of this Shinawatra born muck and tell me how great the imposter and greedy bastard is... and you would just as soon spit on him as I would.

The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country

absolute bs

annual tourism statistics :

2011 19,098,323 +19.84 %

2010 15,936,400 +12.63 %

2009 14,149,841 -2.98 %

2008 14,584,220 +0.83 %

2007 14,464,228 +4.65 %

2006 13,821,802 +20.01 %

2005 11,516,936 -1.15%

2004 11,650,703 no data

the only drop in tourism since 2005, was in 2009... and i believe that was the year following pad's airport seizure, was it not?

that's their 'far miniscule lesser degree' is it?

[nurofiend]

and considering the red shirts weren't formed until 2006, they actually can't be blamed for any drop in tourism...

[whybother]

and considering the red shirts weren't formed until 2006, they actually can't be blamed for any drop in tourism...

Given that the airport siege was late in 2008, the drop that year probably wasn't due to that.

The bad figures in 2008/9 are most likely due to the GFC than anything local.

Sent from my shoe phone

[mca]

The bad figures in 2008/9 are most likely due to the GFC than anything local.

Ghanian Fried Chicken?

[whybother]

The bad figures in 2008/9 are most likely due to the GFC than anything local.

Ghanian Fried Chicken?

.... No.

Sent from my shoe phone

[nurofiend]

and considering the red shirts weren't formed until 2006, they actually can't be blamed for any drop in tourism...

Given that the airport siege was late in 2008, the drop that year probably wasn't due to that.

The bad figures in 2008/9 are most likely due to the GFC than anything local.

Sent from my shoe phone

mmm, the global financial crisis has been gradually getting worse since 2008,

so how does that work with your theory, considering the 2010 and 2011 figures?

the only drop that occurred (since the coup) was in 2009, and the biggest incident that most affected actual tourists in thailand by any political group was the airport occupation in late 2008

blame the financial crisis if you want, i'm not saying it was all the pad's fault for a drop in 2009, but it could definitely have been an element... considering the amount of tourists it did personally affect.

[Buchholz]

LOL @ debating purported tourism arrival figures from the Department of Tourism...

yeah, they're reliable.

anyway, dragging the 600-post megalithic thread off in yet another direction.

but by all means, please continue

.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Buchholz