Hobby Websites That Interact With The Thai Community, Legal W/o Permit Or Not

[Jingthing]

A question I am curious about.

Supposing an expat on a retirement visa (no right to work) wants to do a website that involves posting information about local businesses.

For example a community food and restaurant blog similar (but less slick) than this one from Atlanta:

http://blissfulglutton.com/

But no commercial interest at all. No ads. No payments from restaurants. Just for fun and information.

Obviously a lot of WORK to do a website like that.

So would that be legal or not without a work permit?

[MJCM]

Good question ! And no idea, but if I would do it, I would host the website in Europe or the US of A and not here in Thailand.

[Jingthing]

Good question ! And no idea, but if I would do it, I would host the website in Europe or the US of A and not here in Thailand.

Sure but it would be inevitable that it would be known among the restaurant community who is doing it, so it seems to me it would be important to know whether or not such non-commercial activity is legal or not to do. For example a restaurant gets a less than fabulous comment and wants to take revenge, etc. Of course I post a lot of restaurant comments on the Pattaya forum as a non-commercial activity. What's the difference? Going to restaurants, eating, writing about it on this forum, is that not WORK as well? Well one difference obviously is operating a website so I'm not suggesting they are exactly the same thing, but they are similar things. Edited December 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[fstarbkk]

I would think that there's no law against having a time-consuming hobby. However, one cannot exclude the possibility that someone with a grudge might try to get you in trouble. In that case you may be asked to prove that you really derive no material benefits from your activity, as this would require a different visa status and a work permit. As is well known, Thai rules in this regard are extremely strict.

[Jingthing]

I would think that there's no law against having a time-consuming hobby. However, one cannot exclude the possibility that someone with a grudge might try to get you in trouble. In that case you may be asked to prove that you really derive no material benefits from your activity, as this would require a different visa status and a work permit. As is well known, Thai rules in this regard are extremely strict.

Yes but publishing information about commercial businesses in Thailand (restaurants) even if done as a hobby, does directly interact with the Thai economic world.

I guess the difference between posting on forum site like here is that a forum site is the one publishing the info, not the poster. The forum owns all the user created content here, and owns the work permit issues related to publishing information.

BTW, I think I have seen sites in Thailand like I am talking about, blogs about local food, don't recall if they had google ads which WOULD be commercial. So this isn't fully an academic question. Stuff like this must be happening.

I am pretty certain such a site with obvious commercial activity like ads would be illegal to do without a permit but wondering here about a fully commercial free site.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[mahjongguy]

I would be at least as worried by Thai law regarding libel.

In Thailand libel is a civil and a criminal offense, and unlike in other countries it doesn't matter that much if your statements happen to have been true. So, grudges are often pursued by filing libel charges with the police.

[Jingthing]

I would be at least as worried by Thai law regarding libel.

In Thailand libel is a civil and a criminal offense, and unlike in other countries it doesn't matter that much if your statements happen to have been true. So, grudges are often pursued by filing libel charges with the police.

I agree and that is a known thing. Work permits for activities like this is more of a very grey area.

[FritsSikkink]

Publishing information about local businesses is work and you would need a workpermit. Doesn't matter if you earn any money with it.

As said before if you publish something about a business which they don't like it is pretty easy to report you.

Edited December 16, 2012 by FritsSikkink

[Jingthing]

Publishing information about local businesses is work and you would need a workpermit. Doesn't matter if you earn any money with it.

As said before if you publish something about a business which they don't like it is pretty easy to report you.

That's your opinion about the work permit but I don't feel at this point we have a definitive opinion or a consensus opinion that that is actually true. It might be of course. I do want to separate the issue of restaurants being unhappy from the work permit issue. It's a given the restaurants would learn about the site, For the sake of isolating the work permit issue, imagine ALL of the writing would be only of a positive nature. Edited December 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[FritsSikkink]

Publishing information about local businesses is work and you would need a it is pretty easy to report you.

That's your opinion about the work permit but I don't feel at this point we have a definitive opinion or a consensus opinion that that is actually true. It might be of course. I do want to separate the issue of restaurants being unhappy from the work permit issue. It's a given the restaurants would learn about the site, For the sake of isolating the work permit issue, imagine ALL of the writing would be only of a positive nature.

It only matters what is written in the Alien Working Act 2008 section 5

http://cmemployment.org/pdf/tlaw0366.pdf

"Working" means a working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits.

So i don't see why publishing would be a grey area.

[Jingthing]

Publishing information about local businesses is work and you would need a it is pretty easy to report you.

That's your opinion about the work permit but I don't feel at this point we have a definitive opinion or a consensus opinion that that is actually true. It might be of course. I do want to separate the issue of restaurants being unhappy from the work permit issue. It's a given the restaurants would learn about the site, For the sake of isolating the work permit issue, imagine ALL of the writing would be only of a positive nature.

It only matters what is written in the Alien Working Act 2008 section 5

http://cmemployment....df/tlaw0366.pdf

"Working" means a working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits.

So i don't see why publishing would be a grey area.

OK, thanks for your opinion. That's a law. Also looking for interpretation of that law regarding the kind of case I have presented.

[Jingthing]

Put this another way. Suppose such a blog site existed. Some rude person called up the immigration police and said there is a website talking about local restaurants. Seriously, would they actually get busted for a site with free information done for free? Seriously? Also, not just for free, the restaurants get money for their food and also free publicity.

I really don't know. I am not convinced yet that there REALLY is any problem with such a site in Thailand. If there really is, my editorial comment is this is rather a crazy situation.

Yes, I do get there doesn't need to be a connection between laws and rationality, especially in Thailand (look at the liquor sale hours silliness) but there are limits to my comprehension of where the harm is to spreading free information for free.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[lopburi3]

Flame removed.

[PattayaPhom]

If its something you are serious about doing, to avoid any grey area, why not take a visit to Chonburi labour department, they will give you the correct answers to all your questions, rather than hearsay on here.

[Jingthing]

If its something you are serious about doing, to avoid any grey area, why not take a visit to Chonburi labour department, they will give you the correct answers to all your questions, rather than hearsay on here.

My reaction to that suggestion is that such an action would basically be asking for trouble.

[FritsSikkink]

If its something you are serious about doing, to avoid any grey area, why not take a visit to Chonburi labour department, they will give you the correct answers to all your questions, rather than hearsay on here.

My reaction to that suggestion is that such an action would basically be asking for trouble.

Does that mean you know that you can't work without the permit then?

[Jingthing]

If its something you are serious about doing, to avoid any grey area, why not take a visit to Chonburi labour department, they will give you the correct answers to all your questions, rather than hearsay on here.

My reaction to that suggestion is that such an action would basically be asking for trouble.

Does that mean you know that you can't work without the permit then?

No. It does not mean that. It means that forcing an issue on a Thai bureaucrat when there is no need to do that is unwise. Look, such blogs exist in Thailand. I'm too lazy to search for all of them but they're there and clearly foreigners are running most of them. Some would have ad revenue. If they have ad revenue, I would assume that means that increases the odds that they are technically illegal without a work permit. But again, the question I pose is about purely non-revenue sites.

You've made your POV clear. I am not saying you're wrong. I am just saying I am not fully convinced you are right and am open to other, perhaps more authoritative, comments on the matter.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[FritsSikkink]

If its something you are serious about doing, to avoid any grey area, why not take a visit to Chonburi labour department, they will give you the correct answers to all your questions, rather than hearsay on here.

My reaction to that suggestion is that such an action would basically be asking for trouble.

Does that mean you know that you can't work without the permit then?

I am just saying I am not fully convinced you are right and am open to other, perhaps more authoritative, comments on the matter.

Ask a lawyer

[Jingthing]

Ask a lawyer

I didn't actually say I am planning on doing this myself, did I? I am asking the forum. Some people may be more authoritative on such matters than you think, or then again, maybe not. If not, the thread can die its natural death, with the question not authoritatively answered. I hope that's OK with you.

Also, its rather irrelevant whether this is something I would personally do, or not. Foreigners ARE doing such things, and I'm guessing most have no work permits for obvious reasons. So I think curiosity alone is a worthy reason to ask such a question.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[mahjongguy]

If I wanted to do something like this I would take the safe route of using social media. Meaning, a Facebook page. If having my own URL was important, then I'd cast it as a community blog, emphasizing the people and the activities, playing down the business aspects a bit.

[Jingthing]

If I wanted to do something like this I would take the safe route of using social media. Meaning, a Facebook page. If having my own URL was important, then I'd cast it as a community blog, emphasizing the people and the activities, playing down the business aspects a bit.

I don't get the second comment. If a blog is about food/restaurants that is what it is about. It is not about people and activities unless you're talking chefs.

The Facebook idea, maybe that's good, but again I'm sure there are food blogs like this in Thailand that aren't Facebook based. IF I was going to do such a blog, I wouldn't want it to be connected to Facebook. (Personally, I dislike Facebook.)

Edited December 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[Yumthai]

It only matters what is written in the Alien Working Act 2008 section 5

http://cmemployment....df/tlaw0366.pdf

"Working" means a working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits.

So i don't see why publishing would be a grey area.

So according to this strict definition: gardening, cooking, washing your car/bike, cleaning your room, playing football or cards with friends, etc. is "working" then?... well I suspect that most of (if not all) the foreigners staying here in Thailand might need a work permit.

[Jingthing]

It only matters what is written in the Alien Working Act 2008 section 5

http://cmemployment....df/tlaw0366.pdf

"Working" means a working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits.

So i don't see why publishing would be a grey area.

So according to this strict definition: gardening, cooking, washing your car/bike, cleaning your room, playing football or cards with friends, etc. is "working" then?... well I suspect that most of (if not all) the foreigners staying here in Thailand might need a work permit.

That's where these actual cases get interesting. There is the strictly legal and then there is the reality of what is interesting to the authorities, and what isn't.

[TheChiefJustice]

This is a ridiculous discussion. Get some privacy for your domain name and nobody will ever know who owns the site. Just do it. I have done many, many websites in the past 13 years. I would not give it a second thought. And yes, I know the laws.

Edited December 17, 2012 by TheChiefJustice

[DiamondKing]

When I enquired about working online via your computer, I was told that as long as you are not interfering with thai economy or doing anything online that has anything to do with Thailand then they dont care and it is a very grey area but for example if you are making website for thai business;s or making money from reviewing anything to do with Thailand you need a permit if you are working online lets say for a company overseas then its a very grey area but they dont really care.

Now of course all this is hearsay I am just saying what I was told and it was reiterated that it was a very grey area and most likely we would never know unless someone was reported for working online and actually being prosecuted for it as the above poster has said its very easy to register a domain and pay for privacy host it abroad and the chances of anyone getting into trouble is slim to none.

dk

[Jingthing]

The last two posts are interesting, the ridiculous dig notwithstanding.

Privacy technically online, yes, of course.

A food blog would be an information thing. It would involve talking with chefs. Taking pictures of food. Returning later to see how the place is going, trying new dishes, etc. Anonymity in Thailand with this specific kind of case? I think not!

As far as the other issue, online working not interfacing with Thailand in any way but just physically done behind closed doors in Thailand, yes that has been covered many times and the consensus is technically illegal but almost nobody cares unless you're trading in illegal stuff like porn, etc.

The concept of this OP, though not an income generating idea, most certainly DOES interface with Thai businesses, though not in a money sense.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[Paul888]

How is this any different to the countless people who have asked if they can run their internet business online from Thailand without a work permit?

For me, it is not. As has been mentioned many times, whether you make money or not is irrelevant.

[Jingthing]

How is this any different to the countless people who have asked if they can run their internet business online from Thailand without a work permit?

For me, it is not. As has been mentioned many times, whether you make money or not is irrelevant.

I already said quite clearly how it is different.