One important thing to remember with the so-called warrant-less searches is...the police did not know if the bomber might be in the house holding somebody hostage at gunpoint to force residents to not permit police to enter.

Actual physical searches were, in fact, necessary.

One important thing to remember with the so-called warrant-less searches is...the police did not know if the bomber might be in the house holding somebody hostage at gunpoint to force residents to not permit police to enter.

Actual physical searches were, in fact, necessary.

Sorry, but without adequate grounds of suspicion such random searches are completely unacceptable in any civilised country.

Get a warrant detailing the premises and the extent of the search, get it signed by the correct authority, then go in. Even in known hostage situations, such as the Iran Embassy siege in London, proper procedures must be followed.

Panic is no excuse for acting without due process.

I find it amusing that though Americans are constantly criticized for being unaware of "the outside world" (im not denying that), Blether and Co. are angry and shocked at America for seeming unaware of the IRA's atrocities.

If the US and GB are such great allies and friends as you posit, then one would assume it would be easy to extradite these terrorists that you say the US "harbours". Why hasn't that happened? Logic would say that since these terrorists have harmed GB, not the US, that GB should be leading the charge in tracking them down. You should be angry at your own govt for not seeking extradition and as others have pointed out, perhaps there is a good reason for the British govt not raising a stink about IRA living abroad.

1) Regarding NORAID; how is it so hard to believe? There are lots of Irish in that area, and many of them supported what was going on across the pond. End of story. Should they have? Of course not. Does NORAID represent Americans? Of course not, so stop directing your anger at "America" and send it towards NORAID and Martin Galvin. 99.99% of Americans have never even heard about NORAID.

2) What was the US view during the time? I was too young to remember, sorry. Did I hear about it growing up? Yes. It was explained in basic terms as a group that didn't want to be part of a Britain killing people. Was I told that was ok? Of course not, I grew up knowing them to be bad people.

Pray tell, what did your CIA guy at the super secret function that you were privy to attend, have to say regarding these questions? You did ask him right?

I find it amusing that though Americans are constantly criticized for being unaware of "the outside world" (im not denying that), Blether and Co. are angry and shocked at America for seeming unaware of the IRA's atrocities.

If the US and GB are such great allies and friends as you posit, then one would assume it would be easy to extradite these terrorists that you say the US "harbours". Why hasn't that happened? Logic would say that since these terrorists have harmed GB, not the US, that GB should be leading the charge in tracking them down. You should be angry at your own govt for not seeking extradition and as others have pointed out, perhaps there is a good reason for the British govt not raising a stink about IRA living abroad.

1) Regarding NORAID; how is it so hard to believe? There are lots of Irish in that area, and many of them supported what was going on across the pond. End of story. Should they have? Of course not. Does NORAID represent Americans? Of course not, so stop directing your anger at "America" and send it towards NORAID and Martin Galvin. 99.99% of Americans have never even heard about NORAID.

2) What was the US view during the time? I was too young to remember, sorry. Did I hear about it growing up? Yes. It was explained in basic terms as a group that didn't want to be part of a Britain killing people. Was I told that was ok? Of course not, I grew up knowing them to be bad people.

Pray tell, what did your CIA guy at the super secret function that you were privy to attend, have to say regarding these questions? You did ask him right?

By allowing NORAID to openly collect funds, the US Government was complicit in the murder of innocent civilians."OK just not in my back yard" seems to spring to mind. As to Special Relationship, we are really starting to learn only when it suits Uncle Sam.

I find it amusing that though Americans are constantly criticized for being unaware of "the outside world" (im not denying that), Blether and Co. are angry and shocked at America for seeming unaware of the IRA's atrocities.

If the US and GB are such great allies and friends as you posit, then one would assume it would be easy to extradite these terrorists that you say the US "harbours". Why hasn't that happened? Logic would say that since these terrorists have harmed GB, not the US, that GB should be leading the charge in tracking them down. You should be angry at your own govt for not seeking extradition and as others have pointed out, perhaps there is a good reason for the British govt not raising a stink about IRA living abroad.

1) Regarding NORAID; how is it so hard to believe? There are lots of Irish in that area, and many of them supported what was going on across the pond. End of story. Should they have? Of course not. Does NORAID represent Americans? Of course not, so stop directing your anger at "America" and send it towards NORAID and Martin Galvin. 99.99% of Americans have never even heard about NORAID.

2) What was the US view during the time? I was too young to remember, sorry. Did I hear about it growing up? Yes. It was explained in basic terms as a group that didn't want to be part of a Britain killing people. Was I told that was ok? Of course not, I grew up knowing them to be bad people.

Pray tell, what did your CIA guy at the super secret function that you were privy to attend, have to say regarding these questions? You did ask him right?

By allowing NORAID to openly collect funds, the US Government was complicit in the murder of innocent civilians."OK just not in my back yard" seems to spring to mind. As to Special Relationship, we are really starting to learn only when it suits Uncle Sam.

.

The entire UK is just a little bit smaller in size than the US state of Wyoming. Wyomng is one of 50 US states. CNN began broadcasting about 1980 I think.Just for a little perspective. What may be front and center of a UK news report will be labeled as "in other news today" in a US news broadcast report. That's for a national news report. it probably wouldn't even be mentioned on local news.

Do UK folks know or are of the SDS, Black Panthers, Weather Underground, Possee Comitatus, Many of our fugitives from the law toke refuge in Canada and other locations abroad. For the most part, I don't think he us hadthewill to bring them to justice and I expect it's much the same intheUK.

I find it amusing that though Americans are constantly criticized for being unaware of "the outside world" (im not denying that), Blether and Co. are angry and shocked at America for seeming unaware of the IRA's atrocities.

If the US and GB are such great allies and friends as you posit, then one would assume it would be easy to extradite these terrorists that you say the US "harbours". Why hasn't that happened? Logic would say that since these terrorists have harmed GB, not the US, that GB should be leading the charge in tracking them down. You should be angry at your own govt for not seeking extradition and as others have pointed out, perhaps there is a good reason for the British govt not raising a stink about IRA living abroad.

1) Regarding NORAID; how is it so hard to believe? There are lots of Irish in that area, and many of them supported what was going on across the pond. End of story. Should they have? Of course not. Does NORAID represent Americans? Of course not, so stop directing your anger at "America" and send it towards NORAID and Martin Galvin. 99.99% of Americans have never even heard about NORAID.

2) What was the US view during the time? I was too young to remember, sorry. Did I hear about it growing up? Yes. It was explained in basic terms as a group that didn't want to be part of a Britain killing people. Was I told that was ok? Of course not, I grew up knowing them to be bad people.

Pray tell, what did your CIA guy at the super secret function that you were privy to attend, have to say regarding these questions? You did ask him right?

By allowing NORAID to openly collect funds, the US Government was complicit in the murder of innocent civilians."OK just not in my back yard" seems to spring to mind. As to Special Relationship, we are really starting to learn only when it suits Uncle Sam.

.

The entire UK is just a little bit smaller in size than the US state of Wyoming. Wyomng is one of 50 US states. CNN began broadcasting about 1980 I think.Just for a little perspective. What may be front and center of a UK news report will be labeled as "in other news today" in a US news broadcast report. That's for a national news report. it probably wouldn't even be mentioned on local news.

Do UK folks know or are of the SDS, Black Panthers, Weather Underground, Possee Comitatus, Many of our fugitives from the law toke refuge in Canada and other locations abroad. For the most part, I don't think he us hadthewill to bring them to justice and I expect it's much the same intheUK.

All fascinating stuff but quite irrelevant. BTW many UK kids study 1960's USA history so your first three groups are fairly well known, and PC was an insignificant group of nut jobs (who I was quoting recently to refute the idea that right wing terrorism had never existed), whose main man in terms of notoreity had actually left the group before he killed 3 law enforcement officers.

Anyway care to name a member of any of these groups who was convicted of murder, fled to the UK and there were treated as a hero?

The case I quoted of Joe Donerty would equate to a distinguished Seal team officer (plus a couple of cops in a separate incident) being murdered by a US citizen, who is found guilty of murder, subsequently escapes, travels to the UK on a false passport and it then takes over a decade for said murderer to be extradited back to the USA. Meanwhile 120 politicians, a son of the UK Prime Minister, the Mayor of London and Archbishop of Canterbury all support the campaign against extradition. To add insult to injury a street corner in London is renamed in "honour" of the charming murderer. All the time media types in London, cops and fire officers in London and Manchester are having regular fund raisers to buy more weapons for the convicted murderer's buddies still operating back in the USA ( PS the original murders were committed with a UK funded and supplied machine gun).

Methinks that might cause a little upset in the USA.....

I am no US basher to put it mildly, but the pathetic, naive sentimentality/ crass ignorance that surrounded PIRA fund raising and frustrated extraditios such as Joe Doherty's, was a shameful episode. Having experienced alll aspects of US support for PIRA both in the USA (witnessing fund raising by fire officers in NYC and being harrangued by west coast media types re being part of the "occupying forces "etc), and being "down range" of US-supplied hardware in Ulster, it certainly stuck in the craw but at least I was able to see the final chapter in the aftermath of 11th September and the shame and embarrassment of a NYPD senior officer who like many of his NYC, Boston and SFO colleagues had raised many a buck for PIRA, sorry Noraid.

As previously stated it was really only once PIRA began "pi__ng on the US doorstep" by training FARC insurgents in Colombia and getting way too matey with Cuba that the State Dept etc began to see PIRA in a different light. This was then compounded by September 11th, and the rest is history.....

At least the ending to this sorry tale is a happy one!

^^

So again, whose fault is it that extradition took 10 years?

I find it amusing that though Americans are constantly criticized for being unaware of "the outside world" (im not denying that), Blether and Co. are angry and shocked at America for seeming unaware of the IRA's atrocities.

If the US and GB are such great allies and friends as you posit, then one would assume it would be easy to extradite these terrorists that you say the US "harbours". Why hasn't that happened? Logic would say that since these terrorists have harmed GB, not the US, that GB should be leading the charge in tracking them down. You should be angry at your own govt for not seeking extradition and as others have pointed out, perhaps there is a good reason for the British govt not raising a stink about IRA living abroad.

1) Regarding NORAID; how is it so hard to believe? There are lots of Irish in that area, and many of them supported what was going on across the pond. End of story. Should they have? Of course not. Does NORAID represent Americans? Of course not, so stop directing your anger at "America" and send it towards NORAID and Martin Galvin. 99.99% of Americans have never even heard about NORAID.

2) What was the US view during the time? I was too young to remember, sorry. Did I hear about it growing up? Yes. It was explained in basic terms as a group that didn't want to be part of a Britain killing people. Was I told that was ok? Of course not, I grew up knowing them to be bad people.

Pray tell, what did your CIA guy at the super secret function that you were privy to attend, have to say regarding these questions? You did ask him right?

By allowing NORAID to openly collect funds, the US Government was complicit in the murder of innocent civilians."OK just not in my back yard" seems to spring to mind. As to Special Relationship, we are really starting to learn only when it suits Uncle Sam.

.

The entire UK is just a little bit smaller in size than the US state of Wyoming. Wyomng is one of 50 US states. CNN began broadcasting about 1980 I think.Just for a little perspective. What may be front and center of a UK news report will be labeled as "in other news today" in a US news broadcast report. That's for a national news report. it probably wouldn't even be mentioned on local news.

Do UK folks know or are of the SDS, Black Panthers, Weather Underground, Possee Comitatus, Many of our fugitives from the law toke refuge in Canada and other locations abroad. For the most part, I don't think he us hadthewill to bring them to justice and I expect it's much the same intheUK.

And that justifies support of mass murderers how?

^^

So again, whose fault is it that extradition took 10 years?

For a simple answer Wikipedia is pretty accurate on this matter:

"Doherty claimed he was immune from extradition as the killing of Westmacott was a political act, saying "It was an operation that was typical of all operations where we set up an ambush of a British military convoy... It is a war, and this was a military action", and in 1985 federal judge John E. Sprizzo ruled Doherty could not be extradited as the killing was a "political offense". Doherty's legal battle continued as the United States Department of Justice then attempted to deport him for entering the country illegally.

Doherty remained in custody at the Metropolitan Correctional Center and attempted to claim political asylum, and on 15 June 1988 the Attorney General Edwin Meese overturned an earlier ruling by the Federal Board of Immigration Appeals that Doherty could be deported to the Republic of Ireland, and ordered his deportation to Northern Ireland. In February 1989 new Attorney General Dick Thornburgh chose not to support the decision made by his predecessor, and asked lawyers for Doherty and the Immigration and Naturalization Service to submit arguments for a review of the decision and Doherty's claim for asylum. By this time Doherty's case was a cause célèbre with his sympathisers including over 130 Congressmen and a son of then President of the United States George H. W. Bush, and in 1990 a street corner near the Metropolitan Correctional Center was named after him.

In August 1991, Doherty was transferred to a federal prison in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, and on 16 January 1992 the Supreme Court of the United States overturned a 1990 Federal Appeals Court ruling by a 5-to-3 decision, paving the way for his deportation. On 19 February 1992 Doherty was deported to Northern Ireland, despite pleas to delay the deportation from members of Congress, Mayor of New York City David Dinkins, and the Cardinal Archbishop of New York, John Joseph O'Connor.

Terrorism as a "political offense"? Funny how Doherty didn't mention the police office he and his gang also murdered.

I find it amusing that though Americans are constantly criticized for being unaware of "the outside world" (im not denying that), Blether and Co. are angry and shocked at America for seeming unaware of the IRA's atrocities.

If the US and GB are such great allies and friends as you posit, then one would assume it would be easy to extradite these terrorists that you say the US "harbours". Why hasn't that happened? Logic would say that since these terrorists have harmed GB, not the US, that GB should be leading the charge in tracking them down. You should be angry at your own govt for not seeking extradition and as others have pointed out, perhaps there is a good reason for the British govt not raising a stink about IRA living abroad.

1) Regarding NORAID; how is it so hard to believe? There are lots of Irish in that area, and many of them supported what was going on across the pond. End of story. Should they have? Of course not. Does NORAID represent Americans? Of course not, so stop directing your anger at "America" and send it towards NORAID and Martin Galvin. 99.99% of Americans have never even heard about NORAID.

2) What was the US view during the time? I was too young to remember, sorry. Did I hear about it growing up? Yes. It was explained in basic terms as a group that didn't want to be part of a Britain killing people. Was I told that was ok? Of course not, I grew up knowing them to be bad people.

Pray tell, what did your CIA guy at the super secret function that you were privy to attend, have to say regarding these questions? You did ask him right?

By allowing NORAID to openly collect funds, the US Government was complicit in the murder of innocent civilians."OK just not in my back yard" seems to spring to mind. As to Special Relationship, we are really starting to learn only when it suits Uncle Sam.

.

The entire UK is just a little bit smaller in size than the US state of Wyoming. Wyomng is one of 50 US states. CNN began broadcasting about 1980 I think.Just for a little perspective. What may be front and center of a UK news report will be labeled as "in other news today" in a US news broadcast report. That's for a national news report. it probably wouldn't even be mentioned on local news.

Do UK folks know or are of the SDS, Black Panthers, Weather Underground, Possee Comitatus, Many of our fugitives from the law toke refuge in Canada and other locations abroad. For the most part, I don't think he us hadthewill to bring them to justice and I expect it's much the same intheUK.

And that justifies support of mass murderers how?

.

I'm not justifying mass murder or the support of it. My point is it doesn't come up on the radar of all the world's citizens to the same degree as it does to people who are more locally affected. If it did we'd all be talking about atrocities in Sudan. I have to say, you people are a bit thick sometimes.

I will ignore the insult. I am referring to the American Government, if you spent more time reading what I posted rather than insulting me you would have seen this. If you wish to use the excuse that's it a big world and it wasn't on their radar then you really did/do have the Government you deserve.

On a slightly different tack, there is another quite interesting angle re the US approach on terrorism.

For much of the 1980's and early 1990's there was US support for RENAMO in their campaign against the government of Mozambique. While the government was ostensibly Marxist and thus fitted the then "axis of evil" label, the Brits had recently taken over training their forces to open up the rail/road corridor from Umtali to Beira. Thus we had "individual US citizens", plus unofficially the DIA and latterly Langley, supporting and funding operations in conjunction with the S. Africans and emigre Portuguese (the State Dept always had a dim view of such actions).

RENAMO were a highly unpleasant and brutal organization and some 1million Mozambicans died in the civil war, many in the senseless butchering of civilians in the rural areas. Intriguingly amongst the S.African support for RENAMO in the field (usually using black troops for obvious reasons) the occasional white advisor/specialist would make an appearance. In early 1991 4 white guys turned up to train RENAMO in techniques re blowing up the Cahora Bassa powerlines in a more efficient manner. While never 100% confirmed, they were most likely an ASU from the "East Tyrone Brigade" of PIRA with considerable experience in insurgency operations who needed some time away from the province. Their instruction was unfortunately quite helpful and after a few weeks they disappeared from the scene.

3 months after their return to Ulster these delightful gentleman (sporting impressive tans, unlikely to have been the product of a spell in the Republic), were caught up in an SF operation and 3 perished. Quite who paid for and organized their trip from Ulster to Mozambique via Dublin and Athens was never confirmed, but could again demonstrate an interesting, if Machiavellian, take on terrorism by certain US organizations.

@folium

I thought I would have seen something in that wikipedia article you pasted mentioning attempts and pressure by the british govt to hurry along the extradition. So in the end the US did extradite him. It just took a long time.

If you are looking to lodge grievances against the US govt for supporting bad people, well get in line behind the South Americans and Arabs

Why are you all talking about the US attitude to terrorists in other countries, not on their own soil?

The US is so diverse that you can find supporters of any 'freedom group'.

But what Americans really think is shown when terrorism occurs in the American mainland, not how they react to other countries' terrorists.

@folium

I thought I would have seen something in that wikipedia article you pasted mentioning attempts and pressure by the british govt to hurry along the extradition. So in the end the US did extradite him. It just took a long time.

If you are looking to lodge grievances against the US govt for supporting bad people, well get in line behind the South Americans and Arabs

If you cared to look into the case more deeply, you would see that the British government were constantly pressurizing their US counterparts to sort out this disgraceful foot dragging.

As previously stated I am a huge supporter of the US in many ways for both personal and professional reasons but the shamefully naive, isolationist view of Irish terrorism was a material blot on the relationship, as was the funding and arming of Irish terrorists. imagine if UK fund raising had funded and armed the Boston bombers and then the UK prevaricated for 10 years in extraditing them (after escaping from US detention, having been found guilty of murder, as Doherty was), with prominent politicians and religious types lending their support to blocking their extradition.

Once the PIRA started training FARC in Colombia to impact US interests and personnel, and getting too matey with Havana, the penny finally dropped and uniformed fund raisers for terrorism (amongst others) in NYC, San Fran and Boston in particular, got to grasp the true nature of terrorism on September 11th 2001.

.

Once the PIRA started training FARC in Colombia to impact US interests and personnel, and getting too matey with Havana, the penny finally dropped and uniformed fund raisers for terrorism (amongst others) in NYC, San Fran and Boston in particular, got to grasp the true nature of terrorism on September 11th 2001.

Uniformed or uninformed ???

.

Once the PIRA started training FARC in Colombia to impact US interests and personnel, and getting too matey with Havana, the penny finally dropped and uniformed fund raisers for terrorism (amongst others) in NYC, San Fran and Boston in particular, got to grasp the true nature of terrorism on September 11th 2001.

Uniformed or uninformed ???

Both....

Given the high proportion of Irish-Americans amongst firefighters and cops they were often enthusiastic fund raisers for the "boys behind the wire" , or so they thought ( at least I hope they were not consciously funding terrorism, or at least never joined up the dots).

@folium

I thought I would have seen something in that wikipedia article you pasted mentioning attempts and pressure by the british govt to hurry along the extradition. So in the end the US did extradite him. It just took a long time.

If you are looking to lodge grievances against the US govt for supporting bad people, well get in line behind the South Americans and Arabs

If you cared to look into the case more deeply, you would see that the British government were constantly pressurizing their US counterparts to sort out this disgraceful foot dragging.

As previously stated I am a huge supporter of the US in many ways for both personal and professional reasons but the shamefully naive, isolationist view of Irish terrorism was a material blot on the relationship, as was the funding and arming of Irish terrorists. imagine if UK fund raising had funded and armed the Boston bombers and then the UK prevaricated for 10 years in extraditing them (after escaping from US detention, having been found guilty of murder, as Doherty was), with prominent politicians and religious types lending their support to blocking their extradition.

Once the PIRA started training FARC in Colombia to impact US interests and personnel, and getting too matey with Havana, the penny finally dropped and uniformed fund raisers for terrorism (amongst others) in NYC, San Fran and Boston in particular, got to grasp the true nature of terrorism on September 11th 2001.

No, I do not care to dig more deeply into the case. I just expected the wikipedia entry you copy and pasted about extradition to show evidence of efforts made on the UK end.

Can you explain how/why you connect the FARC training to 9/11? (the bold part)

Kblaze's post:

No, I do not care to dig more deeply into the case. I just expected the wikipedia entry you copy and pasted about extradition to show evidence of efforts made on the UK end.

Can you explain how/why you connect the FARC training to 9/11?

My reply:

Well the UK authorities did make the effort over 10 years to get Doherty extradited.

There is no connection between FARC training missions by PIRA and 9/11, unless you know more....

The simple point was that it took a combination of PIRA messing in the US backyard with FARC and Cuba, plus 9/11, to change US attitudes re terrorist organizations such as PIRA.

Kblaze's post:

No, I do not care to dig more deeply into the case. I just expected the wikipedia entry you copy and pasted about extradition to show evidence of efforts made on the UK end.

Can you explain how/why you connect the FARC training to 9/11?

My reply:

Well the UK authorities did make the effort over 10 years to get Doherty extradited.

There is no connection between FARC training missions by PIRA and 9/11, unless you know more....

The simple point was that it took a combination of PIRA messing in the US backyard with FARC and Cuba, plus 9/11, to change US attitudes re terrorist organizations such as PIRA.

There is a process for extradition. There is some judgement and discretion involved, true, but at what stage of the process and by whom are you alleging that interference with the process took place?

http://extraditiondefenselawyer.com/defense-lawyers-for-extradition-from-the-u-s/

Kblaze's post:

No, I do not care to dig more deeply into the case. I just expected the wikipedia entry you copy and pasted about extradition to show evidence of efforts made on the UK end.

Can you explain how/why you connect the FARC training to 9/11?

My reply:

Well the UK authorities did make the effort over 10 years to get Doherty extradited.

There is no connection between FARC training missions by PIRA and 9/11, unless you know more....

The simple point was that it took a combination of PIRA messing in the US backyard with FARC and Cuba, plus 9/11, to change US attitudes re terrorist organizations such as PIRA.

There is a process for extradition. There is some judgement and discretion involved, true, but at what stage of the process and by whom are you alleging that interference with the process took place?

http://extraditiondefenselawyer.com/defense-lawyers-for-extradition-from-the-u-s/

Doherty claimed that murdering a policeman and an SF officer was a "political act".

This was initially why his deportation was not actioned as it was deemed inappropriate to extradite on the basis of a "political " act. Doherty and his lawyers played all the cards and strung out proceedings for a decade. You could compare it to the Abu Qatada shambles still running in the UK. The big difference is that active support and lobbying by Mayor Dinkins of NYC, the Catholic Archbishop of NYC, assorted NY state congressmen, and a bunch of "celebrities" was full throttle and disgraceful to put it mildly. Culminating in naming a street corner after the murdering terrorist scum this really took the biscuit.

As previously stated, I have no desire or agenda to bash the USA, but all terrorists deserve their day in court. and to face punishment for their acts. This finally happened (until Doherty's early release under the NI Peace Agreement), but at least it happened in the end. What happened in the meantime was not edifying and did not cast certain individuals in the US in a very favourable light.

Kblaze's post:

No, I do not care to dig more deeply into the case. I just expected the wikipedia entry you copy and pasted about extradition to show evidence of efforts made on the UK end.

Can you explain how/why you connect the FARC training to 9/11?

My reply:

Well the UK authorities did make the effort over 10 years to get Doherty extradited.

There is no connection between FARC training missions by PIRA and 9/11, unless you know more....

The simple point was that it took a combination of PIRA messing in the US backyard with FARC and Cuba, plus 9/11, to change US attitudes re terrorist organizations such as PIRA.

There is a process for extradition. There is some judgement and discretion involved, true, but at what stage of the process and by whom are you alleging that interference with the process took place?

http://extraditiondefenselawyer.com/defense-lawyers-for-extradition-from-the-u-s/

Doherty claimed that murdering a policeman and an SF officer was a "political act".

This was initially why his deportation was not actioned as it was deemed inappropriate to extradite on the basis of a "political " act. Doherty and his lawyers played all the cards and strung out proceedings for a decade. You could compare it to the Abu Qatada shambles still running in the UK. The big difference is that active support and lobbying by Mayor Dinkins of NYC, the Catholic Archbishop of NYC, assorted NY state congressmen, and a bunch of "celebrities" was full throttle and disgraceful to put it mildly. Culminating in naming a street corner after the murdering terrorist scum this really took the biscuit.

As previously stated, I have no desire or agenda to bash the USA, but all terrorists deserve their day in court. and to face punishment for their acts. This finally happened (until Doherty's early release under the NI Peace Agreement), but at least it happened in the end. What happened in the meantime was not edifying and did not cast certain individuals in the US in a very favourable light.

I don't think you're bashing the US and I'm not saying I disagree with you either. I was just trying to see what the extent of the support and lobbying was.

It can be a lengthy process if a defendant chooses to exercise each and every of his rights at every occasion to drag the process out. It is however a fairly objective process after the initial review stage where maybe lobbying has some affect. Not so much later on. I agree it's deplorable that landmarks are named after convicted murderers of innocent people.

There's lots that has gone on in the US and by the US that needs bashing and I'm often right out front about it but everyone will have their own sore spots for sure.