Bitcoins banned in Thailand

[hawker9000]

The "threat to the establishment" argument against bitcoin is a much stronger one than the "it'll never catch on/it's silly" argument, IMO.

[Heng]

Have made some nice chedder off of this *insert anti-change argument here.* Again, not condoning holding it long term, but wow, what a thing to speculate on.

[beb]

Have made some nice chedder off of this *insert anti-change argument here.* Again, not condoning holding it long term, but wow, what a thing to speculate on.

It's been a good couple of weeks.

[farang000999]

I am still failing to see anyone in here actually using Bitcoins for any real purpose other than speculating.

[farang000999]

Though obviously one has the urge to speculate themselves when they see the huge gains.

[danbradster]

I just found 0.4 bitcoins on a pool website I used 2 years ago. I think it was $3 at the time so I wrote it off. Today it is $140 or so (bad luck I only had $3 at the time). I transferred them to a wallet on my computer (in Thailand). Are the Thai police after me now?

[kawaiimomo]

Since most of the buying and selling is done via bank transfers, and since this stupid news article I can only find a company with a website working with local banks and charging a crazy % over the real price (either that or doing international transfers), so I wonder what is good about Bitcoin in Thailand. I don't want to be paying fees for international transfers or to the Thai banks or the trader. So, how do you people trade bitcoins here? I just see 3 or 4 dealers on localbitcoin...

[beb]

Since most of the buying and selling is done via bank transfers, and since this stupid news article I can only find a company with a website working with local banks and charging a crazy % over the real price (either that or doing international transfers), so I wonder what is good about Bitcoin in Thailand. I don't want to be paying fees for international transfers or to the Thai banks or the trader. So, how do you people trade bitcoins here? I just see 3 or 4 dealers on localbitcoin...

If you're talking about bahtcoin, it is offering coins at $343 now while coinbase is $340. Depending on which direction things are going, you can often find prices lower than any other place at bahtcoin.

[UbonOz]

Since most of the buying and selling is done via bank transfers, and since this stupid news article I can only find a company with a website working with local banks and charging a crazy % over the real price (either that or doing international transfers), so I wonder what is good about Bitcoin in Thailand. I don't want to be paying fees for international transfers or to the Thai banks or the trader. So, how do you people trade bitcoins here? I just see 3 or 4 dealers on localbitcoin...

Bitcoin is many things, not just a speculative tool. Research will help overcome any doubts. Not a problem paying bank transfers to buy, the gains outweigh the cost.

[farang000999]

September 7, 2011, 12:20 am 213 Comments

Golden Cyberfetters

Over the past few months a number of people have asked what I think of Bitcoin, an attempt to create a sort of private cybercurrency. Now Alexander Kowalski at Bloomberg News directs me to this Jim Surowiecki article on Bitcoin, which is very interesting.

My first reaction to Bitcoin was to say, what’s new? We have lots of ways of making payments electronically; in fact, a lot of the conventional monetary system is already virtual, relying on digital accounting rather than green pieces of paper. But it turns out that there is a difference: Bitcoin, rather than fixing the value of the virtual currency in terms of those green pieces of paper, fixes the total quantity of cybercurrency instead, and lets its dollar value float. In effect, Bitcoin has created its own private gold standard world, in which the money supply is fixed rather than subject to increase via the printing press.

So how’s it going? The dollar value of that cybercurrency has fluctuated sharply, but overall it has soared. So buying into Bitcoin has, at least so far, been a good investment.

But does that make the experiment a success? Um, no. What we want from a monetary system isn’t to make people holding money rich; we want it to facilitate transactions and make the economy as a whole rich. And that’s not at all what is happening in Bitcoin.

Bear in mind that dollar prices have been relatively stable over the past few years – yes, some deflation in 2008-2009, then some inflation as commodity prices rebounded, but overall consumer prices are only slightly higher than they were three years ago. What that means is that if you measure prices in Bitcoins, they have plunged; the Bitcoin economy has in effect experienced massive deflation.

And because of that, there has been an incentive to hoard the virtual currency rather than spending it. The actual value of transactions in Bitcoins has fallen rather than rising. In effect, real gross Bitcoin product has fallen sharply.

So to the extent that the experiment tells us anything about monetary regimes, it reinforces the case against anything like a new gold standard – because it shows just how vulnerable such a standard would be to money-hoarding, deflation, and depression.

[beb]

September 7, 2011, 12:20 am 213 Comments

Golden Cyberfetters

Over the past few months a number of people have asked what I think of Bitcoin, an attempt to create a sort of private cybercurrency. Now Alexander Kowalski at Bloomberg News directs me to this Jim Surowiecki article on Bitcoin, which is very interesting.

My first reaction to Bitcoin was to say, what’s new? We have lots of ways of making payments electronically; in fact, a lot of the conventional monetary system is already virtual, relying on digital accounting rather than green pieces of paper. But it turns out that there is a difference: Bitcoin, rather than fixing the value of the virtual currency in terms of those green pieces of paper, fixes the total quantity of cybercurrency instead, and lets its dollar value float. In effect, Bitcoin has created its own private gold standard world, in which the money supply is fixed rather than subject to increase via the printing press.

So how’s it going? The dollar value of that cybercurrency has fluctuated sharply, but overall it has soared. So buying into Bitcoin has, at least so far, been a good investment.

But does that make the experiment a success? Um, no. What we want from a monetary system isn’t to make people holding money rich; we want it to facilitate transactions and make the economy as a whole rich. And that’s not at all what is happening in Bitcoin.

Bear in mind that dollar prices have been relatively stable over the past few years – yes, some deflation in 2008-2009, then some inflation as commodity prices rebounded, but overall consumer prices are only slightly higher than they were three years ago. What that means is that if you measure prices in Bitcoins, they have plunged; the Bitcoin economy has in effect experienced massive deflation.

And because of that, there has been an incentive to hoard the virtual currency rather than spending it. The actual value of transactions in Bitcoins has fallen rather than rising. In effect, real gross Bitcoin product has fallen sharply.

So to the extent that the experiment tells us anything about monetary regimes, it reinforces the case against anything like a new gold standard – because it shows just how vulnerable such a standard would be to money-hoarding, deflation, and depression.

With all due respect, it appears you don't really understand bitcoin or what stage of development it is currently in. What we are currently in right now is the development stage. Bitcoin is still beta and like any product in beta, has a ways to go. People that are buying bitcoins right now are anticipating the value of bitcoin once is it mainstream and used by the public on a regular basis. They are investing in future value much like somebody in 1900 who bought an oil well with the expectation that gasoline was soon going to be of much greater value.

The idea that saving money is a bad idea is new to me. People will spend their bitcoin in the future just like they do their fiat money now. It's just that right now fiat is the currency you don't want to keep around because it's losing its value every day. If you have deflationary and inflationary currency in your possession, which makes sense to hold onto?

[farang000999]

If you can read, you will see that what I posted was an article written in 2011 and obviously I didn't write it. The people posting in these topics in support of bitcoin seem so completely retarded that you feel like it almost has to fail.

[beb]

Ugh, why are you communicating with people you consider retarded?

For future reference quotation marks are commonly used and expected when...quoting. In any case, my response is to what I read so please don't take offense at a response to something you didn't write.

[kawaiimomo]

If you're talking about bahtcoin, it is offering coins at $343 now while coinbase is $340. Depending on which direction things are going, you can often find prices lower than any other place at bahtcoin.

I was really talking about thaibitcoin, because bahtcoin prices are always lower than the current price and that didn't inspire trust to me. Right now mtgox is showing a 11998 THB (380 USD), thaibitcoin is selling 1BTC for 12985.74 THB (444.72 USD) and bahtcoin for 11329 THB (356 USD). From my newbie point of view I see thaibitcoin charging too much, and bahtcoin charging too little, moreover bahtcoin prices doesn't seem to update constantly like one would expect with something that is fluctuating so fast. Maybe someone can help me to understand that?

I am a first timer wanting to buy but it looks very risky to do so. How to be sure these companies will transfer the BTC to my wallet after I do the bank transfer? Even using localbitcoins with their escrow system is mostly secure for the seller if you are paying with a back transfer, meaning you can't undo a normal transfer if the BTC are not deposited in your wallet.

EDIT: So where are you guys buying and selling? Is anyone using this bahtcoin? I would love to know about your local dealers. Another option I was thinking is to use my European card to buy, but that wouldn't be optimal since my income is in THB and deposited in local banks.

[kawaiimomo]

Bitcoin is many things, not just a speculative tool. Research will help overcome any doubts. Not a problem paying bank transfers to buy, the gains outweigh the cost.

I've been researching for some time already, and I agree with your opinion about BTC not just being a speculative tool. The way I see it is as a commodity like gold or oil, something finite that it is still being mined. However, currently I can't see many more uses than speculation due to the fast fluctuations it is experiencing. I hope in the future it will stabilize and people will be able to use it as we use fiat currencies now, but this time is not yet here. Personally I am waiting for a huge drop that should happen anytime soon due to another DDOS attack, online bitcoins being stolen or a big government shutting down bit traders (althought this I can't see it happen in Japan or China where the biggest are located). After the price drop, it should start climbing again and surpass the price before that drop. So yes, I plan to use it in a speculative mode for the time being.

While I want it to succeed, I see many points of concern: It is said that Satoshi Nakamoto was/were mining bitcoins since the beginning, when the difficulty and computational cost was minimal. Some people have studied the initial blocks and seem to confirm this (and the fact these coins didn't move yet), so now we have a guy or group of people who are probably holding more than 1 million BTC and who could sell them and make the price drop like crazy. Of course, not knowing his/their identities makes it even difficult to believe this is not the case. Maybe it is a stupid concern because even with diamonds a good % is in the hand of a few who could manipulate the prices.

Anyway, with the current status I see few things to do legally other than to buy low and sell higher. Of course illegally there are several benefits as money laundering, anonymous payments for illegal items and moving money internationally.

[JetsetBkk]

Bitcoin is many things, not just a speculative tool. Research will help overcome any doubts. Not a problem paying bank transfers to buy, the gains outweigh the cost.

I've been researching for some time already, and I agree with your opinion about BTC not just being a speculative tool. The way I see it is as a commodity like gold or oil, something finite that it is still being mined.

<snip>

Except... it's not actually real.

[kawaiimomo]

Doesn't really matter, does it? If there is demand and the supply is known to be limited to a certain fixed amount, the price will rise even if in reality it's just a sequence of zeros and ones.

[beb]

If you're talking about bahtcoin, it is offering coins at $343 now while coinbase is $340. Depending on which direction things are going, you can often find prices lower than any other place at bahtcoin.

I was really talking about thaibitcoin, because bahtcoin prices are always lower than the current price and that didn't inspire trust to me. Right now mtgox is showing a 11998 THB (380 USD), thaibitcoin is selling 1BTC for 12985.74 THB (444.72 USD) and bahtcoin for 11329 THB (356 USD). From my newbie point of view I see thaibitcoin charging too much, and bahtcoin charging too little, moreover bahtcoin prices doesn't seem to update constantly like one would expect with something that is fluctuating so fast. Maybe someone can help me to understand that?

I am a first timer wanting to buy but it looks very risky to do so. How to be sure these companies will transfer the BTC to my wallet after I do the bank transfer? Even using localbitcoins with their escrow system is mostly secure for the seller if you are paying with a back transfer, meaning you can't undo a normal transfer if the BTC are not deposited in your wallet.

EDIT: So where are you guys buying and selling? Is anyone using this bahtcoin? I would love to know about your local dealers. Another option I was thinking is to use my European card to buy, but that wouldn't be optimal since my income is in THB and deposited in local banks.

I've used Bahtcoin a few times with no problems.

[kawaiimomo]

I've used Bahtcoin a few times with no problems.

That is good news. I know this is a sensitive question but what amount of money are you talking about? I wouldn't worry too much by buying 1 BTC because at this point I would just lose around 10k THB, I can't help but feeling unsecure if I was about to buy 10 or 100 times more as the lost would be significant if the company decided to keep the money and don't transfer anything...

[UbonOz]

Bitcoin is many things, not just a speculative tool. Research will help overcome any doubts. Not a problem paying bank transfers to buy, the gains outweigh the cost.

I've been researching for some time already, and I agree with your opinion about BTC not just being a speculative tool. The way I see it is as a commodity like gold or oil, something finite that it is still being mined.

<snip>

Except... it's not actually real.

Neither is fiat.

[UbonOz]

I've used Bahtcoin a few times with no problems.

That is good news. I know this is a sensitive question but what amount of money are you talking about? I wouldn't worry too much by buying 1 BTC because at this point I would just lose around 10k THB, I can't help but feeling unsecure if I was about to buy 10 or 100 times more as the lost would be significant if the company decided to keep the money and don't transfer anything...

I was very apprehensive when I first bought at US$106.00, have subsequently bought more.

First I bought with LocalBitcoin with funds in Australia, all other purchases with BitStamp. Always been a smooth transaction. If using LocalBitcoin use someone with plenty of good reviews.

If you buy from an exchange shift your funds/BTC as soon as possible after the transaction to your wallet.

I use Electrum and BTC QT.

Always gives me a kick when I move funds across borders in minutes for a few cents.

[Khun Jean]

I think there will be a few 50% or more crashes in the near future.

If you use it for speculation does are the time to buy them.

If you want to 'gather' bitcoins you can try to sell products online and use for instance bitpay.

You even have the choice to convert it into a currency you like or just keep it as bitcoins.

The products you sell are priced in $US or EUR or whatever and at the moment of sale this price is converted to bitcoins.

It is the only way to sell real world things, which you have to source in a conventional currency first. because it eliminates the exchange rate risk.

I have read about it, no experience with it.

[oakweb]

Bullish on Bitcoin! I'm mining at a current rate of 2.3 TH/s with 5.2 TH/s hardware on the way.

[farang000999]

Bitcoin is many things, not just a speculative tool. Research will help overcome any doubts. Not a problem paying bank transfers to buy, the gains outweigh the cost.

I've been researching for some time already, and I agree with your opinion about BTC not just being a speculative tool. The way I see it is as a commodity like gold or oil, something finite that it is still being mined.

Bitcoin is finite? What is stopping the next electronic money from being created? You already have a bunch of copycats. People are interested in BTC because it's value is steadily rising creating a positive feedback loop. Your analogies and theories are all very flawed.

[kawaiimomo]

Bitcoin is many things, not just a speculative tool. Research will help overcome any doubts. Not a problem paying bank transfers to buy, the gains outweigh the cost.

I've been researching for some time already, and I agree with your opinion about BTC not just being a speculative tool. The way I see it is as a commodity like gold or oil, something finite that it is still being mined.

Bitcoin is finite? What is stopping the next electronic money from being created? You already have a bunch of copycats. People are interested in BTC because it's value is steadily rising creating a positive feedback loop. Your analogies and theories are all very flawed.

Is finite because there's a limit on the total amount of BTC that can be created. There are a lot of copycats but none seems to get as popular as the original, and I don't think they will ever do. Maybe you can spend some time explaining me why are my thoughts so flawed, I would certainly appreciate it.

[kawaiimomo]

Bitcoin is many things, not just a speculative tool. Research will help overcome any doubts. Not a problem paying bank transfers to buy, the gains outweigh the cost.

I've been researching for some time already, and I agree with your opinion about BTC not just being a speculative tool. The way I see it is as a commodity like gold or oil, something finite that it is still being mined.

Bitcoin is finite? What is stopping the next electronic money from being created? You already have a bunch of copycats. People are interested in BTC because it's value is steadily rising creating a positive feedback loop. Your analogies and theories are all very flawed.

Is finite because there's a limit on the total amount of BTC that can be created. There are a lot of copycats but none seems to get as popular as the original, and I don't think they will ever do. Maybe you can spend some time explaining me why are my thoughts so flawed, I would certainly appreciate it.

[beb]

Bitcoin is many things, not just a speculative tool. Research will help overcome any doubts. Not a problem paying bank transfers to buy, the gains outweigh the cost.

I've been researching for some time already, and I agree with your opinion about BTC not just being a speculative tool. The way I see it is as a commodity like gold or oil, something finite that it is still being mined.

Bitcoin is finite? What is stopping the next electronic money from being created? You already have a bunch of copycats. People are interested in BTC because it's value is steadily rising creating a positive feedback loop. Your analogies and theories are all very flawed.

Nothing is stopping any competitors except competition.

Most alt currencies are forked from btc with specific changes to try to make them more appealing but the great thing about btc is it can incorporate innovations as it goes along.

Just like there's nothing to stop new companies from putting out 6 wheeled cars. They can do it but if it turns out 6 wheeled cars are suddenly what everybody wants then Toyota etc. will have their 6 wheeled cars in the market.

[brit1984]

for a asset class that has so much inherent risk it is bizarre that risk aversion / paranoia is often cited (and often really is) a motivation for its "investors"

bitcoin has first mover advantage like any other new product - however, followers often end up on top (and often render the first mover obsolete)

if bitcoin gains global and widespread recognition/ popularity as the preferred medium of exchange for online transactions (and acceptance by governments/ law enforcement agencies) those who buy bitcoins now stand to potentially make a very good return (depending on how much of that potential is already priced in)

if on the other hand, bitcoin does not achieve this, those same "investors" may well lose all/ nearly all of their investment

[oakweb]

for a asset class that has so much inherent risk it is bizarre that risk aversion / paranoia is often cited (and often really is) a motivation for its "investors"

bitcoin has first mover advantage like any other new product - however, followers often end up on top (and often render the first mover obsolete)

if bitcoin gains global and widespread recognition/ popularity as the preferred medium of exchange for online transactions (and acceptance by governments/ law enforcement agencies) those who buy bitcoins now stand to potentially make a very good return (depending on how much of that potential is already priced in)

if on the other hand, bitcoin does not achieve this, those same "investors" may well lose all/ nearly all of their investment

Brit1984 I don't believe that Bitcoin is needing acceptance from any agency, it is already gaining in popularity with merchants. All signs indicate that agencies do want to step in to put some type of control (much like they want to control

the Internet) but not sure what any approval they can provide to a system that is in place, and operating fine.

As an online merchant I welcome it, as will many others, regardless of what agencies think of it.

[brit1984]

for a asset class that has so much inherent risk it is bizarre that risk aversion / paranoia is often cited (and often really is) a motivation for its "investors"

bitcoin has first mover advantage like any other new product - however, followers often end up on top (and often render the first mover obsolete)

if bitcoin gains global and widespread recognition/ popularity as the preferred medium of exchange for online transactions (and acceptance by governments/ law enforcement agencies) those who buy bitcoins now stand to potentially make a very good return (depending on how much of that potential is already priced in)

if on the other hand, bitcoin does not achieve this, those same "investors" may well lose all/ nearly all of their investment

Brit1984 I don't believe that Bitcoin is needing acceptance from any agency, it is already gaining in popularity with merchants. All signs indicate that agencies do want to step in to put some type of control (much like they want to control

the Internet) but not sure what any approval they can provide to a system that is in place, and operating fine.

As an online merchant I welcome it, as will many others, regardless of what agencies think of it.

much of the internet is controlled but most governments / law enforcement agencies do not want to ban the internet altogether (although in some countries they have done so quite successfully)

banning the use of bitcoin in certain jurisdictions would pose serious problems for its viability / value - and although some online operators will find ways around the law (as do many other cyber criminals) the value of bitcoin would be much lower if using it is illegal

although it would have to become a lot more popular than it is now for any such governments / agencies to really care to start passing laws, allocating police resource, etc