It was fascinating to me when I tried to communicate my understanding of the standard teachings that someone totally ignorant of Christianity looked at me like I was on serious drugs.

You have all the makings of a great (standard) Mormon mate.

On a less serious note.... I'm not sure if you will like this... the reaction gets even stronger as you get closer to the actual dogma. I've been in this business a long time and not a day goes by where I don't shake my head and under my breath utter, 'no way can you believe that'. I find the whole subject fascinating and have done for 30 years I guess so I am able to mix business with pleasure. Plenty of time on my hands when I fully retired but was limited in what I could do after a spinal injury. I decided to use my education in psychology to do charity work offering support/ counselling over the internet for people who have come out as atheists and have been rejected by their friends and more importantly family and workplace.

Catholics believe in the virgin birth. Not all other Christian groups do.

We also believe that Jesus was BOTH man AND God. This is a matter of faith, not logic.

The resurrection? Nobody knows what happens. It gets referred to as rapture or bliss... but what it actually is, we shall not know until the time comes.

Bottom line with all religions is that if you try to strip them down they appear to be a set of improbable and unsupported events, but that's just not the point.

Religion requires an act of faith, or suspension of disbelief (like going to the movies). You either believe it or choose not to. Faith does not require evidence, proof or even a credible storyline.

Christianity comes in all shapes, sizes and flavours and nowhere more so than in the USA, where slick marketing, product differentiation, "guaranteed" returns, and great delivery are winning hallmarks. In many ways similar to the investment management industry.

Similarly whether holy texts are seen as god's revelation or a human interpretation of god's words and deeds is left up to the various sects to decide.

Sadly tolerance of other faiths or non believers has not always been a feature of many religions.

Yeah I agree. That's why I mentioned to consider faith to my incredulous friend and also suggested this was common to all religions.

The complexity of the differences between Christian sects is a bit beyond my bandwidth though.

I was hoping to be able to boil it down to a CORE consensus of general teachings about the nature of Jesus. Oh well!

I should also add that I told this friend that I was an atheist and that revelation made his head explode in a different way. I did try to explain that as well but not with the word faith.

In my opinion, if you strip down any religion, you'll find people management, which results to power redistribution.

Religions are set of laws which can not be questioned by the ordinary people who have been made to believe in these laws. Hence king of the kings is a valid description for Jesus/god.

Each religion have their own set of laws as well as the holy people who control how these laws are interpreted. The people on top do not want other religions to weaken the power they have gained.

Psychologically religions and how those are understood is very interesting as it's at the same time looking how human mind works.

Yeah I agree. That's why I mentioned to consider faith to my incredulous friend and also suggested this was common to all religions.

The complexity of the differences between Christian sects is a bit beyond my bandwidth though.

I was hoping to be able to boil it down to a CORE consensus of general teachings about the nature of Jesus. Oh well!

I should also add that I told this friend that I was an atheist and that revelation made his head explode in a different way. I did try to explain that as well but not with the word faith.

OK, in order to understand the teachings, you have to go back to the beginning - to Adam and Eve. They weren't born, they were created. They were created free of sin, and without a future of death.

Then they sinned and came under God's law that the wages of sin is death. They became mortal. Their offspring inherited the mortality and the sin nature. Everyone is a sinner.

Now, in order to redeem anyone who wanted it, a sacrifice had to be made, much as the people in the Old Testament would sacrifice an innocent lamb to atone for sins. Jesus is called the lamb who was slain for the sins of the earth.

Now, this lamb had to be sinless, which was impossible if he were just a man. All who would follow him could have sins forgiven, but he had to have the power to forgive sins and only God can do that. So he was born sinless of a virgin and his father was God.

Now, since God is spirit and is omnipresent, it's perfectly logical that he could be everywhere in the universe including inhabiting and being that man. So you don't need two Gods to have Jesus be "fully indwelt" by God. God in the flesh. Fully man so that he could carry the sins of man, and fully God so that he would have the power to forgive sins.

When Jesus died on the cross, he died for everyone who would believe. The thief on the cross next to him believed, and Jesus told him "today you will be with me in paradise."

When Jesus died, only the flesh died. The spirit in him which was God didn't die. Three days later, Jesus became the first person to arise from the grave. He walked around for a few days to show his friends and believers all of his scars to prove who he was, and then he ascended into Heaven. Modern medicine could not help a man with all of the wounds described survive that hanging. He had come back to life to show that He could do it for others.

He was seen alive by at least 5,000 people as witnesses and that's why the story persists. His hanging, his burial, and his resurrection were all witnessed.

So yes, Jesus is fully man born of a virgin, and fully God, and it's really not that hard to understand the story.

The story is rejected out of hand as a fable by most, and firmly believed by some. Jesus Himself said that there would be few who would believe and follow Him.

As they say in Thailand, "Up to you."

How can "just a man" rise from the dead?

It;s not for me to provide a rational explenation,

That's because there isn't one.

Then they sinned and came under God's law that the wages of sin is death.

Whoa! I have it on good word that the god of Abraham is omniscient so the god must have known it was going to happen.

Now, in order to redeem anyone who wanted it, a sacrifice had to be made, much as the people in the Old Testament would sacrifice an innocent lamb to atone for sins. Jesus is called the lamb who was slain for the sins of the earth.

Vicarious redemption. Of all the distasteful things in the OT and the NT this has to be the worst. The abrogation of personal responsibility. Pile your sins onto a lamb and drive it into the desert to die and so absolve yourself.

Then they sinned and came under God's law that the wages of sin is death.

Whoa! I have it on good word that the god of Abraham is omniscient so the god must have known it was going to happen.

Yes he did. There is the story in the Bible of the fall of Satan and a lot of other angels - a rebellion. The entire story is to prove the God was right and Satan was wrong. So in a way, we are a demonstration to the universe of what happens when man runs amok. Yes, he knew everything that would happen from the beginning, and now it's playing out.

Now, in order to redeem anyone who wanted it, a sacrifice had to be made, much as the people in the Old Testament would sacrifice an innocent lamb to atone for sins. Jesus is called the lamb who was slain for the sins of the earth.

Vicarious redemption. Of all the distasteful things in the OT and the NT this has to be the worst. The abrogation of personal responsibility. Pile your sins onto a lamb and drive it into the desert to die and so absolve yourself.

Well, man has killed animals from the beginning so that's not so "distasteful." Jesus' death was voluntary. He also knew what he was here for and he gave up his life for it. That's what he was born to do and he knew it before he was born. There are a lot of things in this world that are worth dying for. Dying for someone is the ultimate act of love.

Whoa! I have it on good word that the god of Abraham is omniscient so the god must have known it was going to happen.

Agreed - but mankind was given free will, thus he could choose between right and wrong, as he can today. The punishments and rewards are also known, as they were three thousand years ago - both those imposed by nature and those imposed by man.

One should consider most punishments in the Bible (OT and NT) as being imposed by man, even though they are claimed to come directly from God. They were developed firstly by Moses, then further amplified by his brother Aaron and his descendents, the Levis or priestly class.

Examples of punishments imposed by nature - hunting too large an animal (greed) resulting in either

1. Being killed by the animal
2. The carcase being too heavy to carry, thus crippling the hunter
3. The carcase being too heavy to carry, thus having to leave behind offal and meat, thus bringing scavengers like hyenas and jackals to accompany hunters, frightening game off.

(that's a simple example, open to criticism, but you should know what I mean.)

Example of punishment imposed by man - Stealing the food from one's neighbour, resulting in

1. Hand-chopping (Islam)
2. Death (Judaism)

In Judaism 2,500 years ago the basic punishments were sacrifice or death. There were no prisons - the concept of locking someone up and providing them with free meals while they did no work was a stupidity not contemplated.

Vicarious redemption. Of all the distasteful things in the OT and the NT this has to be the worst. The abrogation of personal responsibility. Pile your sins onto a lamb and drive it into the desert to die and so absolve yourself.

Not quite accurate.

The scapegoat, to which you refer, was a community sacrifice whereby the sins of the entire community were placed on the scapegoat, which was driven out into the desert to carry those sins away.

Individual sins of particular classifications were absolved (?) (Maybe better to just say repented of) by the sacrifice of a bullock, lamb or kid - depending on the nature of the sin - by the local priest (animal provided by the sinner, of course) through burning the carcase. I assume this provided a decent meal for the priests after the ceremony. Although the bullock was presumably male, the lamb or kid would have been female. Don't know why - when I was running a major project in Saudi I had to provide a feast for the local Customs officials every month - always a kid, always a boy kid, with all dangleums still attached to confirm maleness. Cooked to death by the Somali slave of the chief Customs guy. Tasted very dry, but I had to eat it every bloody month for two years.

To get back on topic. I've never understood why being born of a virgin is so important / why it is a central tenet, as it was not required of the messiah according to Jewish teachings which could be why JT has never really come across it. Parthenogenesis is not unthinkable and is in fact found in many species and, it wouldn't prove the divinity of the Jesus figure either way. From what I have seen it is of greater significance to the Catholic sect of Christianity but I may be wrong.

OK, I did my best to explain it in my post, below. There is an age of accountability. If a baby dies, he is not judged of course. He doesn't become "a sinner" until he reaches some age where he makes a choice. So a young virgin would not be carrying the sins of mankind yet. Then if she bore a child who's father was the God of the Universe, her child would not inherit the sin nature of man. Her child would be sinless and blameless and therefore qualified to die for the sins of the world. He would be fully man and fully God (indwelt by an omniprescent God) and he would have the power to forgive sins.

He would also gain, in the eyes of mankind, the right to judge because he had lived on this earth to adulthood, walked a mile in our shoes so to speak, and remained sinless because he didn't have the sin nature.

I'm not asking anyone to believe this. But the questions were asked about how the process in the Bible is explained by the Bible, and I'm just answering the questions.

Repeat:

OK, in order to understand the teachings, you have to go back to the beginning - to Adam and Eve. They weren't born, they were created. They were created free of sin, and without a future of death.

Then they sinned and came under God's law that the wages of sin is death. They became mortal. Their offspring inherited the mortality and the sin nature. Everyone is a sinner.

Now, in order to redeem anyone who wanted it, a sacrifice had to be made, much as the people in the Old Testament would sacrifice an innocent lamb to atone for sins. Jesus is called the lamb who was slain for the sins of the earth.

Now, this lamb had to be sinless, which was impossible if he were just a man. All who would follow him could have sins forgiven, but he had to have the power to forgive sins and only God can do that. So he was born sinless of a virgin and his father was God.

Now, since God is spirit and is omnipresent, it's perfectly logical that he could be everywhere in the universe including inhabiting and being that man. So you don't need two Gods to have Jesus be "fully indwelt" by God. God in the flesh. Fully man so that he could carry the sins of man, and fully God so that he would have the power to forgive sins.

When Jesus died on the cross, he died for everyone who would believe. The thief on the cross next to him believed, and Jesus told him "today you will be with me in paradise."

When Jesus died, only the flesh died. The spirit in him which was God didn't die. Three days later, Jesus became the first person to arise from the grave. He walked around for a few days to show his friends and believers all of his scars to prove who he was, and then he ascended into Heaven. Modern medicine could not help a man with all of the wounds described survive that hanging. He had come back to life to show that He could do it for others.

He was seen alive by at least 5,000 people as witnesses and that's why the story persists. His hanging, his burial, and his resurrection were all witnessed.

So yes, Jesus is fully man born of a virgin, and fully God, and it's really not that hard to understand the story.

The story is rejected out of hand as a fable by most, and firmly believed by some. Jesus Himself said that there would be few who would believe and follow Him.

As they say in Thailand, "Up to you."

As George Michael once sang:

" 'Cause I've gotta have faith, faith, faith..... "

Yes he did. There is the story in the Bible of the fall of Satan and a lot of other angels - a rebellion. The entire story is to prove the God was right and Satan was wrong. So in a way, we are a demonstration to the universe of what happens when man runs amok. Yes, he knew everything that would happen from the beginning, and now it's playing out.

So humanity was set up.

Now, in order to redeem anyone who wanted it, a sacrifice had to be made, much as the people in the Old Testament would sacrifice an innocent lamb to atone for sins. Jesus is called the lamb who was slain for the sins of the earth.

A sacrifice had to be made. Why a sacrifice? Could not an all powerful god just make it happen?

Well, man has killed animals from the beginning so that's not so "distasteful." Jesus' death was voluntary. He also knew what he was here for and he gave up his life for it. That's what he was born to do and he knew it before he was born. There are a lot of things in this world that are worth dying for. Dying for someone is the ultimate act of love.[/color]

It is presumptuous at minimum. Was the Jesus figure asked?

No. The bible is riddled with euphemisms, and anyone who takes such a book literally is going to struggle in Thailand. SC

nearly all religious books/teachings can be ridiculed or torn into shreds by logical conclusions using the many contradictions and/or outrageous claims.

i did some private research years ago and found only one religion to which my conclusion does not apply.

Vicarious redemption. Of all the distasteful things in the OT and the NT this has to be the worst. The abrogation of personal responsibility. Pile your sins onto a lamb and drive it into the desert to die and so absolve yourself.

The scapegoat, to which you refer, was a community sacrifice whereby the sins of the entire community were placed on the scapegoat, which was driven out into the desert to carry those sins away.

Both yourself and neversure have missed the point. Is it ethical to shirk one's responsibilities?

Yes he did. There is the story in the Bible of the fall of Satan and a lot of other angels - a rebellion. The entire story is to prove the God was right and Satan was wrong. So in a way, we are a demonstration to the universe of what happens when man runs amok. Yes, he knew everything that would happen from the beginning, and now it's playing out.

So humanity was set up.

Not really. Now, I'm just saying what the Bible teaches. I'm only answering questions about what the Bible says. What you think of it is up to you.

Not set up because everyone including Adam and Eve had the choice to not sin, and then there would have been no need for a Christ and no judgement.

Now, in order to redeem anyone who wanted it, a sacrifice had to be made, much as the people in the Old Testament would sacrifice an innocent lamb to atone for sins. Jesus is called the lamb who was slain for the sins of the earth.

A sacrifice had to be made. Why a sacrifice? Could not an all powerful god just make it happen?

Somehow there always had to be payment for sin. The payment could be made by someone or something else. Before the time of Jesus, there was no Savior, so animals were used. After the death and resurrection of Jesus, people could then just ask for forgiveness because Jesus had been the ultimate sacrifice for everyone. Again, I'm just explaining how the Bible says it.

Well, man has killed animals from the beginning so that's not so "distasteful." Jesus' death was voluntary. He also knew what he was here for and he gave up his life for it. That's what he was born to do and he knew it before he was born. There are a lot of things in this world that are worth dying for. Dying for someone is the ultimate act of love.[/color]

It is presumptuous at minimum. Was the Jesus figure asked?

Yes he was asked. Remember, he existed before he was born in Bethlehem. He was God in the flesh. He knew about it from the beginning. He came to die.

Please remember. I'm only answering questions about how the Bible teaches because people asked. I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything, or making any claims.

I hope everyone understands that.

No. The bible is riddled with euphemisms, and anyone who takes such a book literally is going to struggle in Thailand. SC

nearly all religious books/teachings can be ridiculed or torn into shreds by logical conclusions using the many contradictions and/or outrageous claims.

i did some private research years ago and found only one religion to which my conclusion does not apply.

And that religion would be.... ?

I can't stand the suspension!

So it is taught Jesus Christ is 1/2 man, 1/2 God, or what?

Aren't we all? Isn't all life on this planet?

Just think about the word "life". What is it? What makes people have a brain and make decisions? What makes a dog breath and walk? What makes a plant grow?

So many questions.

How can "just a man" rise from the dead?

If you are referring to the resurrection of Jesus the Christ, the secret lies in meditation. A theory says that he spent most of his life between being a baby and returning to the stage as an adult in the Far East, where the Three Wiser Men came from. They taught him, and he became enlightened.

In my opinion, if you strip down any religion, you'll find people management, which results to power redistribution.

Religions are set of laws which can not be questioned by the ordinary people who have been made to believe in these laws. Hence king of the kings is a valid description for Jesus/god.

Each religion have their own set of laws as well as the holy people who control how these laws are interpreted. The people on top do not want other religions to weaken the power they have gained.

Psychologically religions and how those are understood is very interesting as it's at the same time looking how human mind works.

Do you remember Baghwan Shree Rajneesh? He's my hero. When I grow up, I will also start a religion. It's a great business model, and you can make up your own rules as religions enjoy special protection! And they are tax exempt, too.

How can "just a man" rise from the dead?

He was supposed to have done magic a number of times when he was alive - so he was not just a man - but once he died, he would not be a man anymore.

No. The bible is riddled with euphemisms, and anyone who takes such a book literally is going to struggle in Thailand. SC

nearly all religious books/teachings can be ridiculed or torn into shreds by logical conclusions using the many contradictions and/or outrageous claims.

i did some private research years ago and found only one religion to which my conclusion does not apply.

And that religion would be.... ?

I can't stand the suspension!

Sikhism

In my opinion, if you strip down any religion, you'll find people management, which results to power redistribution.

Religions are set of laws which can not be questioned by the ordinary people who have been made to believe in these laws. Hence king of the kings is a valid description for Jesus/god.

Each religion have their own set of laws as well as the holy people who control how these laws are interpreted. The people on top do not want other religions to weaken the power they have gained.

Psychologically religions and how those are understood is very interesting as it's at the same time looking how human mind works.

Do you remember Baghwan Shree Rajneesh? He's my hero. When I grow up, I will also start a religion. It's a great business model, and you can make up your own rules as religions enjoy special protection! And they are tax exempt, too.

and all these Rolls in different colours!

In my opinion, if you strip down any religion, you'll find people management, which results to power redistribution.

Religions are set of laws which can not be questioned by the ordinary people who have been made to believe in these laws. Hence king of the kings is a valid description for Jesus/god.

Each religion have their own set of laws as well as the holy people who control how these laws are interpreted. The people on top do not want other religions to weaken the power they have gained.

Psychologically religions and how those are understood is very interesting as it's at the same time looking how human mind works.

Do you remember Baghwan Shree Rajneesh? He's my hero. When I grow up, I will also start a religion. It's a great business model, and you can make up your own rules as religions enjoy special protection! And they are tax exempt, too.

or go for a L Ron Hubbard approach, write dreary sci-fi, then invent a "religion" to which budding starlets flock in the hope they will become a superstar, once they are "clear" or even reachOperating Thetan status (like Mr T. Cruise/ Mr J. Travolta), having shelled out $thousands to the "church".

"Religions" serve all sorts of functions, some more edifying than others. Ultimately all religions are human constructs and "god/s" has projected onto him/her/them all our hopes and desires. Works for many but not all, but it's an individual's choice (in an ideal world) whether to believe or not. Faith cannot be proved or disproved (and does not need to be for believers), that is its ultimate strength.

I think Mary had sex with another man,

and came up with this explanation to Joseph,

and he wasnt clever enuff to call a spade for a spade.

When Jesus was born, the charade had to go on,

and Jesus, being a child, thought his parents was telling the truth.

And the rest, as they say, is history, or at least religion.

I think Mary had sex with another man,

and came up with this explanation to Joseph,

and he wasnt clever enuff to call a spade for a spade.

When Jesus was born, the charade had to go on,

and Jesus, being a child, thought his parents was telling the truth.

And the rest, as they say, is history, or at least religion.

One theory on Discovery. She was raped by a Roman soldier.

How can "just a man" rise from the dead?

If you are referring to the resurrection of Jesus the Christ, the secret lies in meditation. A theory says that he spent most of his life between being a baby and returning to the stage as an adult in the Far East, where the Three Wiser Men came from. They taught him, and he became enlightened.

Don't understand what you mean.

The entire resurrection event as told in the gospels is overflowing with inconsistencies. An excellent series of videos by YouTube member TruthSurge is worth watching for anyone interested. Be warned that it is very extensive (37 videos)

An issue not raised in the videos is that a prerequisite of being alive is not being dead. Since the Jesus character was seen swanning about town some 3 days after his supposed execution he is no longer dead (died) for our sins. Payment was therefore fraudulent.

 

How can "just a man" rise from the dead?

If you are referring to the resurrection of Jesus the Christ, the secret lies in meditation. A theory says that he spent most of his life between being a baby and returning to the stage as an adult in the Far East, where the Three Wiser Men came from. They taught him, and he became enlightened.

 

Oh yes, here here.

Jesus, like myself for that matter, was and is heavily influenced of the wise monk Drukpa Kunley,

if not outright followers and bask in His wisdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drukpa_Kunley