Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[wigantojapan]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/

When presented with the evidence that Scotland has been a huge net contributor to UK finances ever since the discovery of North Sea oil, Unionists sometimes protest“Ah, but what about the 260 years before that, when Scotland was just a poor wee backwater with no industry that was bankrolled by England after the Darien disaster?”

Remember folks the link provides official UK Government figures......

[wigantojapan]

http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=T-8r8lOshbU&u=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DswWhEBbz5sk%26feature%3Dshare

[7by7]

If the No vote wins, do you think there is any chance that a contingent of English members will come on to gloat and gloat and gloat.

Highly unlikely; as anyone who has read the pro Union posts (and I don't mean the silly jokes and name calling; posters from both sides are guilty of those) would know.

Oh, by the way. phuketjock, considering the spelling and grammar mistakes which have appeared many times in your posts; the words 'glass houses' and 'stones' leaps to mind!

Can you spot the grammatical error in your last post?

Ah 7 you have joined the spelling and grammar police then??

Actually the words were " border" and " boarder" pay attention 7 please.

Absolutely nothing to do with " spelling' or " grammar ".

No, I have not joined the spelling and grammar police; merely commenting on your recruitment to them.

I am paying attention; hence my reference to glass houses and stones!

As in 'Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.'

A relevant comment as you leapt in to make a sarcastic post over one poster's spelling but are ignoring the mistakes in your own posts; and the many more in other pro Yes posters'; one in particular.

Got it now?

[wigantojapan]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/ Care to comment on this 7 by 7 rather than spelling or grammar ... or any one else for that matter seeing this is on topic

[7by7]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/

When presented with the evidence that Scotland has been a huge net contributor to UK finances ever since the discovery of North Sea oil, Unionists sometimes protest“Ah, but what about the 260 years before that, when Scotland was just a poor wee backwater with no industry that was bankrolled by England after the Darien disaster?”

Remember folks the link provides official UK Government figures......

A pro independence website providing what it claims to be official UK government figures.

The refusal to release a certain table seems reasonable as it was prepared specifically for a certain Alex Salmond in reply to a query from him.

If people think that their private correspondence is going to be released to anyone who asks for it; who will use this service?

If Salmond has these figures and if they say what Wings Over Scotland claim; why doesn't Salmond release them?

I'd have thought he'd be shouting them from the roof tops!

[7by7]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/ Care to comment on this 7 by 7 rather than spelling or grammar ... or any one else for that matter seeing this is on topic

See above; typed as you typed.

I trust you will be admonishing phuketjock for making comments on another poster's spelling.

[wigantojapan]

A pro independence website providing what it claims to be official UK government figures.

​Why don't you 7 by 7 go into the National Library of Scotland and find them for yourself then if you disbelief they are doctored or incorrect..

Also i have posted links to posts that also put the No argument granted side by side with the Yes argument ,would you care you comment on them,,but first i can give you time to disprove that the table mentioned and lets remember it was in relation to

ever since the discovery of North Sea oil, Unionists sometimes protest“Ah, but what about the 260 years before that, when Scotland was just a poor wee backwater with no industry that was bankrolled by England after the Darien disaster?”

Thank you

[transam]

If the Scots decide to vote No to the separation. What will the English media be like for the next 100 years.

English Media : Come here boy, Sit!

Scotland: Yes Master

Nooooooooooooo way..............As an English guy l respect my Scots cousins to being No.1 in a fight. Don't care about the money talk, I care about us shoulder to shoulder.

If the No vote wins, do you think there is any chance that a contingent of English members will come on to gloat and gloat and gloat.

Gloat about what......?

[MAJIC]

Which makes me revert again to what I said about it not being necessary to set everything in stone prior to the vote.

Your own quote said that the CTA was the preferred solution, in which case there'll be virtually no change on the border

But it seems Salmond thinks everything is set in stone,and preordained. And he doesn't understand the word NO! but if it should not be necessary for everthing to be set in stone prior to the vote,now that really is a risky business!

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted. Please stay on topic.

[jpinx]

Which makes me revert again to what I said about it not being necessary to set everything in stone prior to the vote.

Your own quote said that the CTA was the preferred solution, in which case there'll be virtually no change on the border

But it seems Salmond thinks everything is set in stone,and preordained. And he doesn't understand the word NO! but if it should not be necessary for everthing to be set in stone prior to the vote,now that really is a risky business!

Salmond is not the definition of Scottish opinion. The Scots will know what is possible. Even in the schools the kids know what's what.

[7by7]

Why don't you 7 by 7 go into the National Library of Scotland and find them for yourself then if you disbelief they are doctored or incorrect..

So, yet again, you want me to do your research for you!

Also i have posted links to posts that also put the No argument granted side by side with the Yes argument ,would you care you comment on them

As I said, I will watch that video when I have the time. But as I not only have a job but also a life outside this forum; I have not yet had the time to do so.

but first i can give you time to disprove that the table mentioned

Difficult to disprove something of which I do not know the contents!

I asked before, I'll ask again: if the figures provided to Salmond in response to his FoI enquiry show that Scotland has been subsidising the rest of the UK to such an extent; why hasn't he published them?

Surely such 'evidence' would be a massive boost to his campaign?

What's he hiding?

and lets remember it was in relation to Ah, but what about the 260 years before that, when Scotland was just a poor wee backwater with no industry that was bankrolled by England after the Darien disaster?”

Not an argument I have heard put forward by any serious proponent of a No vote. Enlighten us; who has said it and when?

[7by7]

Which makes me revert again to what I said about it not being necessary to set everything in stone prior to the vote.

Your own quote said that the CTA was the preferred solution, in which case there'll be virtually no change on the border

But it seems Salmond thinks everything is set in stone,and preordained. And he doesn't understand the word NO! but if it should not be necessary for everthing to be set in stone prior to the vote,now that really is a risky business!

Salmond is not the definition of Scottish opinion. The Scots will know what is possible. Even in the schools the kids know what's what.

Try telling that to Salmond!

Not only does he appear to believe that, should the result be 'Yes', not only will he get his way on every single point in the subsequent negotiations, but that it will be he who leads the Scottish people into the promised land!

Promised land? More likely the wilderness!

[wigantojapan]

Why don't you 7 by 7 go into the National Library of Scotland and find them for yourself then if you disbelief they are doctored or incorrect.. (WTJ)

So, yet again, you want me to do your research for you! (7 by 7)

IT is obvious to myself that i have done the research......

You stated that the link provided was on a yes forum which is correct but it was taken from the National Library of Scotland Which is NOT a YES vote forum.

you disbelieved the information provided and again i provide a link a neutral link at that which i have looked at myself .....Have you looked at the link?

and lets remember it was in relation to Ah, but what about the 260 years before that, when Scotland was just a poor wee backwater with no industry that was bankrolled by England after the Darien disaster?”WTJ

Not an argument I have heard put forward by any serious proponent of a No vote. Enlighten us; who has said it and when? 7 by 7.

You have not heard anywhere at any time that England has been subsidizing Scotland?

This is in relation to that and forms part of the same discussion a topic that has come up regularly on this forum far less elsewhere

On this forum there has been plenty of replies to that......Head in the sand comes to mind.

I have time to wait on your reply when you do eventually look at the links.seeing you are too busy to look at a short link ,,but still not busy enough to write long winded replies which don't answer the question asked

In the future i shall just post the evidence as presented by all sides of the argument,,but it is clear that the lies of the No campaign has turned the tide and the yes vote has the wind in its sails.

Let it continue and let Scotland set its own course.

This is for the more open minded curious types and off course you can get to listen to all the varieties of Scottish people from the South to the North and What they think ,,after all they will ultimately be the ones who do vote.

It was interesting to note on The Glasgow University debate that one of the reasons for a No vote was without it the Uk would have 50 years of a Conservative vote and would set a president for the rest of Europe, and that was a scary though for the UK as well as Scotland.....

Go figure and they all said the No vote that Scotland could survive economically

The Unionists and that is predominately the Tories can have the Tories .Scotland doesn't want the divide and conquer mentality anymore .

[wigantojapan]

http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=T-8r8lOshbU&u=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DswWhEBbz5sk%26feature%3Dshare

Glasgow University debate link...Listen carefully folks

[jpinx]

Which makes me revert again to what I said about it not being necessary to set everything in stone prior to the vote.

Your own quote said that the CTA was the preferred solution, in which case there'll be virtually no change on the border

But it seems Salmond thinks everything is set in stone,and preordained. And he doesn't understand the word NO! but if it should not be necessary for everthing to be set in stone prior to the vote,now that really is a risky business!

Salmond is not the definition of Scottish opinion. The Scots will know what is possible. Even in the schools the kids know what's what.

Try telling that to Salmond!

Not only does he appear to believe that, should the result be 'Yes', not only will he get his way on every single point in the subsequent negotiations, but that it will be he who leads the Scottish people into the promised land!

Promised land? More likely the wilderness!

Whoa 7 -- for someone who purports to be democratic (whatever that really means) an attitude of wishing neighbours to be happy and successful would be more appropriate to ensure a trouble-free co-existance. How would you feel if England had a land border with some of the troubled eastern european countries who have recently joined the EU?

[7by7]

Whoa 7 -- for someone who purports to be democratic (whatever that really means) an attitude of wishing neighbours to be happy and successful would be more appropriate to ensure a trouble-free co-existance. How would you feel if England had a land border with some of the troubled eastern european countries who have recently joined the EU?

I have made my position clear many times; whilst I wish an independent Scotland well, I fear that they will not have the rosy future painted by Salmond.

I fail to see the relevance of your final question; unless you see the troubles of which you speak as the future of an independent Scotland!

(Quotes of previous posts removed to comply with forum's limit of number of quotes in any one post.)

[7by7]

wigontojapan;

You asked me why I haven't yet commented upon a 1 hour 35 minute video; as I said it's because I haven't had time to watch it yet.

Your links to short articles I have commented upon; you didn't like my comments; up to you.

But I'm still not going to do your research for you; if you want evidence to prove, or even substantiate, your points; find it yourself.

I have heard arguments that England has been subsidising Scotland; but the specific one you quoted I have not heard said by anyone except the website you quoted from; despite that sites claim that it is said by many!

Going to tell us why Salmond has not published that table if it is as damning to the 'No' cause as wings over Scotland claims?

[jpinx]

7by7 is single-handedly going to defend the enforced union of Scotland and England

I recently went to a presentation about Scottish history and the up-coming independence vote, done by a school class of ten-year-olds. They had a considerably better grasp of the realities than most commentators in here, and possible better than a lot of politicans on both sides of the debate/border

[7by7]

7by7 is single-handedly going to defend the enforced union of Scotland and England

1. As Scotland joined the Union voluntarily all those years ago and as Scotland will be leaving the Union if the referendum result is Yes, how is it an 'enforced' union?

2. I am not the only Unionist posting here.

3. If you think that anything said on this forum is going to have any influence in the referendum vote, you are sadly mistaken.

[jpinx]

Really -- I will stop now -- "Voluntarily" demonstrates a wilful mis-reading of history.

[7by7]

As wilful a misreading as that presented by Mel Gibson?

The ordinary Scottish people had has much say in 1707 as the ordinary English and Welsh people did; none at all.

But both the English and the Scottish Parliaments agreed to it.

English MPs and Scottish MPs had their reasons for agreeing to the Union; and we can debate them all day; but it was a treaty entered in to and two separate Acts of both Parliaments which created the Union.

Whilst on the subject of Parliament; English MPs cannot, rightly in my opinion, vote on purely Scottish matters but Scottish MPs can vote on purely English ones.

Anyone know why?

[wigantojapan]

. As Scotland joined the Union voluntarily all those years ago 7 by 7

Did they actually teach English children this in schools?

For English people and the rest of the worlds people this is an out and out lie,,,,,already posted on this forum that there was riots the breadth of Scotland when the Union took place FACT Not Fiction.

But I'm still not going to do your research for you; if you want evidence to prove, or even substantiate, your points; find it yourself 7 by 7

​Again i said i had already said clearly that i had done the research ,and that was in the same sentence that you have replied .

Again avoiding the question.

If you think that anything said on this forum is going to have any influence in the referendum vote, you are sadly mistaken 7 by 7

Why wouldn't it for the people who are able to vote.

Also i would hope that the people looking in who don't have the vote at least they can see and receive information from the people of Scotland ( as the posting from around Scotland make clear)

Giving sides from both sides of the discussion.

​Scotland has a rich and wonderful History and has contributed to the UK and world enormously. and the scaremongering that Scotland will go doon the lavvie pan if it makes its own decisions have been found out .

I post another informative clear headed debate from the Kingdom of Fife ...Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=0jcB5jXJI5E&u=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9bTEwdtxt4I%26feature%3Dshare

[7by7]

The Scottish Parliament voluntarily agreed to the Union; for various reasons.

As I said, the ordinary Scottish people had no say in the matter; but neither did the ordinary English or Welsh!

As for what is taught in schools, I refer you to this from Education Scotland.

You say

Also i would hope that the people looking in who don't have the vote at least they can see and receive information from the people of Scotland ( as the posting from around Scotland make clear)

Sorry, but most of the pro independence posters seem to be living in Thailand (or Wigan or Japan)!

Not that their doing so means they can't have an opinion nor express it, of course.

[wigantojapan]

As for what is taught in schools, I refer you to this from Education Scotlander.

I never asked you what is taught in Scottish schools ..What i did ask is that what is taught in English schools,,so if you are going to provide a link provide that.

Personally i dont care if you do or not,,.

What it didn't say in your link what was the leavers used to get the objectors on the Scottish side to conform.

That is taught in Scottish schools and establishments of higher education.

Another one of many, topics that play into the yes vote when the truth is revealed .

​

.

[7by7]

Dear, oh dear.

I provide a link to Education Scotland showing the Scottish perspective the history of the Union and that the Scottish Parliament did enter into the Union voluntarily and that's not good enough for you. No doubt because it shatters several of your illusions.

Yet again, like, for example, your earlier assertion that the majority of the 6000 civilian employees at Faslane probably commute all the way from England and back every day; you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole.

I will happily debate with you; but as I dislike engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, I will wait until you have recovered yours.

[Richard W]

jocks will be banned from voting in 2015 if they vote YES ,and why not if they want to be free from the UK

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ban-scots-from-voting-at-2015-general-election-if-they-gain-independence-say-tories-9234135.html

Your logic astounds me, why would any independent Scot have the slightest interest

in voting in an English election of any kind.

The assumption is that England and Scotland would separate in 2016, not 2014 and not 2105.

[wigantojapan]

I provide a link to Education Scotland showing the Scottish perspective the history of the Union and that the Scottish Parliament did enter into the Union voluntarily and that's not good enough for you. No doubt because it shatters several of your illusions.

Once more you have again failed or deliberately chosen to avoid the question.....

you yourself 7 by 7 said that it was voluntary..not me not anyone else but YOU

I then replied is that what they teach you in ENGLISH SCHOOLS

You then supplied a link to Scottish education

so number 1 avoidance of a direct question a habit you frequently do..

I then pointed that out to you and offered you to investigate what was the levers used to gain the voluntary result in your eyes

Again i pointed out that.that point is taught in Scottish schools and places of higher education

again you failed to respond to that and came back with a link to the Scottish education which i hope you studied in depth and again it only outlines the basics and the students and lectures myself included debate these outlines deeper...Oh and its not a quick 10 minutes to even and hour to grasp Scottish History.

If they teach a different variety of Scottish History or even the part of the Union in England ,well that is what is taught there and you have been influenced by that,,but again in Scotland the why and how they came to that vote and it certainly was not a voluntary vote with no string attached.

Yet again, like, for example, your earlier assertion that the majority of the 6000 civilian employees at Faslane probably commute all the way from England and back every day; you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole 7 by 7

​Where did i say anywhere that people commute ? far less commute to England,,,,,,Was never said

What i did say was that it is not 6000 Scots employed at Faslane,,, which you did say

.

You failed to grasp the simple fact that Scotland is a multi cultural country and welcomes people from all over the world and in that fact having a workforce of 6000 Scots is ......... you can fill in the gaps,,,,,no mention of commute or going back to England.

What big hole are you suggesting now

Im happy that you welcome Scotland to be part of the UK and that you are happy to subsidize these poor Scots.....That shows a real commitment to mankind

Im happy also that you are happy to pay for your health service and for the young ones who can afford or even what is the case be put into debt so one can have a University education,,

,Scotland is happy to be able still to have access to free medical care and free education

Im happy that you are happythe unionists support wars of any kind far less wars that were fought again only for the profit of the few at the expense of many

im happy that the yes vote never ever supported the war in Iraq or weapons of mass destruction.

Im happy that you are happy with the welfare state attack on the most vulnerable people and the unionist voted in for one the Bedroom tax

I happy that Scotland voted against the unjust tax for the vulnerable people of scotland.

im happy that you are happy to support the union idea of Nuclear energy as the be all and end all of the energy supply

​Im happy that in Scotland we do have the full potential and capability to use fossil free energies and they will get implemented.

​Im happy that you are happy that the unionist has whipped up so much emotion on the point of immigration that people do not feel welcome in the Uk,,

even UK citizens returning home from abroad.

im happy that Scotland is open to everyone and welcomes people.

im happy that you are happy that it is the right of man to be selfish and look after themselves only at the expense of everyone

Im happy that the Scottish people have a more fairer caring outlook on themselves and others.

im happy that you are happy with the union that you have chosen to live in Thailand

Im happy that when scotland gets rid of nuclear i can return

Im happy that you are happy that you have paid all these taxes and have contributed to stockpiling weapons of destruction

i,m happy thati have never paid any tax to the uk and thus none of my money has been spent on Nuclear weapons and weapons of war

Im happy that you are happy and that as a human being you are happy to see the suffering and division and greed that the unionists vote labor and tory has caused and you can call yourself a christian ,hindu Buddhist or what ever

im happy that in general the Scottish people do live in the spirit of a fairer world for everyone

so your happiness is not my happiness and that i can respect

ask the people of Uk if they are happy or not and actually in the polls the Scots nearly always come out higher than their counterparts south of the border

Have i learnt anything from the Independent debate..a lot

have i learnt anything new that i didnt know and have lived through from the Unionist stand point( remember i have been posting link to Scottish unionist and their views)None what so ever, apart from ,,,,,,well i will leave that .....as that is a topic for another day

,,,,

what has changed in my life time is Labour in Scotland is in bed with Conservatives in England.

What hasnt changed is that Scotland wants to be free from England

[nontabury]

I provide a link to Education Scotland showing the Scottish perspective the history of the Union and that the Scottish Parliament did enter into the Union voluntarily and that's not good enough for you. No doubt because it shatters several of your illusions.

Once more you have again failed or deliberately chosen to avoid the question.....

you yourself 7 by 7 said that it was voluntary..not me not anyone else but YOU

I then replied is that what they teach you in ENGLISH SCHOOLS

You then supplied a link to Scottish education

so number 1 avoidance of a direct question a habit you frequently do..

I then pointed that out to you and offered you to investigate what was the levers used to gain the voluntary result in your eyes

Again i pointed out that.that point is taught in Scottish schools and places of higher education

again you failed to respond to that and came back with a link to the Scottish education which i hope you studied in depth and again it only outlines the basics and the students and lectures myself included debate these outlines deeper...Oh and its not a quick 10 minutes to even and hour to grasp Scottish History.

If they teach a different variety of Scottish History or even the part of the Union in England ,well that is what is taught there and you have been influenced by that,,but again in Scotland the why and how they came to that vote and it certainly was not a voluntary vote with no string attached.

Yet again, like, for example, your earlier assertion that the majority of the 6000 civilian employees at Faslane probably commute all the way from England and back every day; you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole 7 by 7

​Where did i say anywhere that people commute ? far less commute to England,,,,,,Was never said

What i did say was that it is not 6000 Scots employed at Faslane,,, which you did say

.

You failed to grasp the simple fact that Scotland is a multi cultural country and welcomes people from all over the world and in that fact having a workforce of 6000 Scots is ......... you can fill in the gaps,,,,,no mention of commute or going back to England.

What big hole are you suggesting now

Im happy that you welcome Scotland to be part of the UK and that you are happy to subsidize these poor Scots.....That shows a real commitment to mankind

Im happy also that you are happy to pay for your health service and for the young ones who can afford or even what is the case be put into debt so one can have a University education,,

,Scotland is happy to be able still to have access to free medical care and free education

Im happy that you are happythe unionists support wars of any kind far less wars that were fought again only for the profit of the few at the expense of many

im happy that the yes vote never ever supported the war in Iraq or weapons of mass destruction.

Im happy that you are happy with the welfare state attack on the most vulnerable people and the unionist voted in for one the Bedroom tax

I happy that Scotland voted against the unjust tax for the vulnerable people of scotland.

im happy that you are happy to support the union idea of Nuclear energy as the be all and end all of the energy supply

​Im happy that in Scotland we do have the full potential and capability to use fossil free energies and they will get implemented.

​Im happy that you are happy that the unionist has whipped up so much emotion on the point of immigration that people do not feel welcome in the Uk,,

even UK citizens returning home from abroad.

im happy that Scotland is open to everyone and welcomes people.

im happy that you are happy that it is the right of man to be selfish and look after themselves only at the expense of everyone

Im happy that the Scottish people have a more fairer caring outlook on themselves and others.

im happy that you are happy with the union that you have chosen to live in Thailand

Im happy that when scotland gets rid of nuclear i can return

Im happy that you are happy that you have paid all these taxes and have contributed to stockpiling weapons of destruction

i,m happy thati have never paid any tax to the uk and thus none of my money has been spent on Nuclear weapons and weapons of war

Im happy that you are happy and that as a human being you are happy to see the suffering and division and greed that the unionists vote labor and tory has caused and you can call yourself a christian ,hindu Buddhist or what ever

im happy that in general the Scottish people do live in the spirit of a fairer world for everyone

so your happiness is not my happiness and that i can respect

ask the people of Uk if they are happy or not and actually in the polls the Scots nearly always come out higher than their counterparts south of the border

Have i learnt anything from the Independent debate..a lot

have i learnt anything new that i didnt know and have lived through from the Unionist stand point( remember i have been posting link to Scottish unionist and their views)None what so ever, apart from ,,,,,,well i will leave that .....as that is a topic for another day

,,,,

what has changed in my life time is Labour in Scotland is in bed with Conservatives in England.

What hasnt changed is that Scotland wants to be free from England

What the hell are you drinking?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[StreetCowboy]

I suppose independence is one way of making sure we never get a high speed rail link.