PM Yingluck seeks House dissolution

[tomacht8]

I agree with EmptySet re vote buying if, as most posters on TVF suggest, you mean handing a bit of cash to the electorate 1 by 1.

However, the local political machines do fairly well control local politics in a manner that very much is vote buying. They get paid to deliver votes and made promises of local improvements based upon the party making the promises winning the district. They have a great deal of power locally and do use it. The village chief gets handed a wad of cash, and told you will get a new water tower, or your roads will be repaved etc if you deliver your people. Note that the contracts for the improvements go to the political allies of the government in most cases.

This makes it almost impossible for foreign observers to see the irregularities. They would 1) Have to be reported locally and 2) have someone with the political will to follow up on the reports 3) have penalties in place that actually discourage this.

What is amazing is that some people still get red carded for handing out cash.

So what you´re saying is that it works in the exact same manner it does all over the world, i.e empty promises about fixing roads, new water tower, etc, etc, to get people to vote for you?

Except maybe the "hard cash" vote buying. But I think we all know by now that both sides are pretty much equally guilty when it comes to that...

It would be nice, but from 100% Budget money the people get only 30-40%, and when u ask where are the difference, then you get not Data or answer in parlament. The rest of the money goes in personal pockets!

And how exactly is that so different from anywhere else? The proportions might be quite a bit off in LoS, but other than that, it seems to be how things ´work´ in most countries.

Here are a few thoughts from board members

- Public monthly reports on Finance and project progresses.

- Public invitation for project proposals and at least three competitive compare offers.

- Project completion reports including all expenses with receipts.

- incorruptible officials and police

- stronger laws and penalties against corruption

- parliament voting structure request for Constitutional amendments 2/3 or 3/4 majority

- No serving MP immunity to prosecution

- life ban for all MP's found guilty of crime

- Strong powers given to institutions that protect democracy

- Penalties for MP's found telling lies to the public regarding state finance

- Accountability to the public regarding government finance and expenditure

- All loans projects must go through strict government budgetary procedure with constant

scrutiny by powerful independent bodies

Guess many other countries realised this to fight corruption!

[96tehtarp]

The leadership of the current anti-government movement are all 100% Yellow. Look it up. It's on record.

If I'm wrong I'll be the first to owe up to it.

VERY untrue. I know former red shirts among them personally, who became discontent and joined in.

The leadership of the current anti-government movement consists of 100% former yellow leaders.

From your reply it seems that you have looked up the record and found that the statement I made above is wrong. If so please set the record straight and name anyone in the leadership of the current anti-government movement that has not been a former yellow leader. I'd really like to know, and as I wrote previously I'll be the first to admit it if I am wrong.

If you personally know one of the leaders in the anti-government movement who was a former red leader then who are they? I'd like to know.

If you can't name one, can anybody else name one? Anybody?

[Hawkman]

These morons should get their house in order before DEMANDING married retirees put double funds in their banks.

Good riddance and don't come back.

Thailand should PAY us to come here to raise the IQ of the nation.

If you think Suthep and his ultra-nationalists will instead accept foreigners with open arms, hugs and kisses, you are in for a big surprise.

Suthep has often said "we don't need farangs - I don't respect them" he's a nationalist thug and Abhisit is turning out to be his puppy dog

I couldn't care what he thinks about farang; this is about the Thai people and their country and keeping it from being run by corrupt megalomaniacs.

[jdinasia]

The problem, I agree, rests with the 'elites' and their bourgeois hangers-on in and around Bangkok and a few southern outposts who have a very long history of refusing to better incorporate the general population of Thailand into the country's successes. They are being forced to change now.

Nice of you to do exactly what you accuse the Dems of doing, write off a major section of the population. Many of them simple farmers, agricultural workers. "a few southern outposts" ..... look at a political map of Thailand.

Then remember that when the 3rd reading of the amnesty bill was pushed through, that no opposition debate was allowed which was a complete violation of parliamentary procedures. In parliament in Thailand this is the first time that I have seen such behaviour. It, along with the bill to change the form of government ie:natture of the senate, bit PTP in the butt. I agree that a change of the nature of the senate should be allowed after a national referendum, but it is not the province of parliament to change that on its own.

[MAN2SIN2BKK]

Yesterday the so-called Democrat turkeys voted for Christmas; now take the democratic opportunity and finish them off once and for all as it is unlikely that any of them will run in this election

[TVGerry]

I have been listening very clearly. For years Suthep has made it clear that he does not like foreigners and that he doesn't want them here. Any foreigner cheering for this guy will be in for a big surprise when the read shit hits the fan.

I've Googled it and can't seem to find anything Suthep has written or said that 'made it clear he does not like foreigners'. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a link or two?

[binjalin]

These morons should get their house in order before DEMANDING married retirees put double funds in their banks.

Good riddance and don't come back.

Thailand should PAY us to come here to raise the IQ of the nation.

If you think Suthep and his ultra-nationalists will instead accept foreigners with open arms, hugs and kisses, you are in for a big surprise.

Suthep has often said "we don't need farangs - I don't respect them" he's a nationalist thug and Abhisit is turning out to be his puppy dog

So you haven't listened to anything they have said or done I see. At least they have the balls to get out on the street, face courts. Prolly a lot more balls than you have. Maybe you're envious?

face courts? Dear Leader will submit to the Police then? democracy isn't about 'the street' in this case its about elections - get it now?

[binjalin]

I have been listening very clearly. For years Suthep has made it clear that he does not like foreigners and that he doesn't want them here. Any foreigner cheering for this guy will be in for a big surprise when the read shit hits the fan.

I've Googled it and can't seem to find anything Suthep has written or said that 'made it clear he does not like foreigners'. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a link or two?

Suthep: "I don't respect 'farangs'. We

do not have to surrender to them"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/454183-thailand-rejects-foreign-election-monitors/

Edited December 9, 2013 by binjalin

[Emptyset]

Smart move by her brother,

Wipe the slate clean, get re-elected, start a fresh agenda

It won't be an easy election for them... they will have to explain too many things they've done.

It won't be an easy election for the Democrats if they persist with these tactics. Thais - it used to be said, and it's still true to an extent I reckon - are instinctively conservative and are quick to turn against political protesters, even if they're in the right. That's how the Democrats actually won the 1992 election, by NOT being part of the protests. Chuan said that he stood for democracy, but not chaos and that he believed in the parliamentary system. Chamlong lost out because he was perceived to be one of those who created a chaotic situation, despite the fact that his actions were thought to be heroic by many.

Good history lesson, but I wouldn't say that this protest has been particularly chaotic except for R.U. incidents which is something that I hope isn't swept under the rug. The Democratic candidates only have to explain or justify the protests in Bangkok, whereas the PTP candidates have the burden of explaining all their policies for the whole of Thailand.

Yes, but that's on the assumption that things remain peaceful today, and that they stop protesting and contest the election. Mind you if they're not going to contest it, I guess they won't really have to worry about what the electorate think of them.

[newcomer71]

I have been listening very clearly. For years Suthep has made it clear that he does not like foreigners and that he doesn't want them here. Any foreigner cheering for this guy will be in for a big surprise when the read shit hits the fan.

I've Googled it and can't seem to find anything Suthep has written or said that 'made it clear he does not like foreigners'. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a link or two?

You googled wrong

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/454183-thailand-rejects-foreign-election-monitors/

http://asiancorrespondent.com/51084/thailand-rejects-foreign-election-observers/

Maybe because he used the word "farang"...

[jackrich]

I have been listening very clearly. For years Suthep has made it clear that he does not like foreigners and that he doesn't want them here. Any foreigner cheering for this guy will be in for a big surprise when the read shit hits the fan.

I've Googled it and can't seem to find anything Suthep has written or said that 'made it clear he does not like foreigners'. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a link or two?

Here it is: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/454183-thailand-rejects-foreign-election-monitors/

It was also on Bangkok Post and The Nation.

[TVGerry]

I have been listening very clearly. For years Suthep has made it clear that he does not like foreigners and that he doesn't want them here. Any foreigner cheering for this guy will be in for a big surprise when the read shit hits the fan.

I've Googled it and can't seem to find anything Suthep has written or said that 'made it clear he does not like foreigners'. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a link or two?

Suthep: "I don't respect 'farangs'. We

do not have to surrender to them"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/454183-thailand-rejects-foreign-election-monitors/

That was with regards to election monitors. Anything else more concrete?

[binjalin]

I have been listening very clearly. For years Suthep has made it clear that he does not like foreigners and that he doesn't want them here. Any foreigner cheering for this guy will be in for a big surprise when the read shit hits the fan.

I've Googled it and can't seem to find anything Suthep has written or said that 'made it clear he does not like foreigners'. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a link or two?

Suthep: "I don't respect 'farangs'. We

do not have to surrender to them"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/454183-thailand-rejects-foreign-election-monitors/

That was with regards to election monitors. Anything else more concrete?

you're squirming - it's clear

and VERY pertinent as we are discussing elections

Edited December 9, 2013 by binjalin

[farangman]

It seems the Democrats have just committed political suicide. They resigned from the party, which means they will - all of them - not be allowed to stand in the next elections, which are to be held in 60 days or less. That means the Democrats have to find over 500 new candidates and prepare them, all in less than 60 days.

Sigh.....They resigned their positions as members of parliament, NOT their membership of the Democratic Party.

They also resigned from the party, in order not to face dissolution if the protests go wrong.

Sigh again!!....it was only the 9 ex democrat mp's that are leading the protests that resigned their party membership.

Don't let the truth get in the way of your arguments...carry on making stuff up. You're portraying yourself in not a very positive manner.

[jdinasia]

I have been listening very clearly. For years Suthep has made it clear that he does not like foreigners and that he doesn't want them here. Any foreigner cheering for this guy will be in for a big surprise when the read shit hits the fan.

I've Googled it and can't seem to find anything Suthep has written or said that 'made it clear he does not like foreigners'. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a link or two?

Suthep does business with foreigners.

That being said I do not think he cares too much about foreign opinions on Thai sovereignty issues. He has been less strident about this than others who have said things like "The UN is not my father"

[TVGerry]

Suthep: "I don't respect 'farangs'. We

do not have to surrender to them"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/454183-thailand-rejects-foreign-election-monitors/

That was with regards to election monitors. Anything else more concrete?

't seem to find anything Suthep has written or said that 'made it clear he does not like foreigners'. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a link or two?

you're squirming - it's clear

and VERY pertinent as we are discussing elections

You have a single quote made in regards to election monitors and from that you deduce that Suthep hates all foreigners and wants us out? Oooookay!

[jackrich]

I have been listening very clearly. For years Suthep has made it clear that he does not like foreigners and that he doesn't want them here. Any foreigner cheering for this guy will be in for a big surprise when the read shit hits the fan.

I've Googled it and can't seem to find anything Suthep has written or said that 'made it clear he does not like foreigners'. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a link or two?

Suthep: "I don't respect 'farangs'. We

do not have to surrender to them"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/454183-thailand-rejects-foreign-election-monitors/

That was with regards to election monitors. Anything else more concrete?

Yeah, the next more concrete thing would be to go back to pre-school. We don't really have the time to teach everything from there upwards.

You're cheering for someone who clearly hates foreigners. As a foreigner, you should be very worried. If you're not, then don't worry, you likely won't even see it coming when it happens and it won't hurt you.

[jdinasia]

It seems the Democrats have just committed political suicide. They resigned from the party, which means they will - all of them - not be allowed to stand in the next elections, which are to be held in 60 days or less. That means the Democrats have to find over 500 new candidates and prepare them, all in less than 60 days.

Sigh.....They resigned their positions as members of parliament, NOT their membership of the Democratic Party.

They also resigned from the party, in order not to face dissolution if the protests go wrong.

Sigh again!!....it was only the 9 ex democrat mp's that are leading the protests that resigned their party membership.

Don't let the truth get in the way of your arguments...carry on making stuff up. You're portraying yourself in not a very positive manner.

Only the actions of party execs can get a party dissolved. Not all 9 were execs.

Most represented areas that PTP could not pull 20% of the votes in their constituencies.

[96tehtarp]

The leadership of the current anti-government movement are all 100% Yellow. Look it up. It's on record.

If I'm wrong I'll be the first to owe up to it.

heres your chance then ..the first protesters in bangkok were/and are the dharma army a buddhist group nothing to do with the dems who like suphap jumped onboard very late in the day,because they never had the <deleted> to go it alone by themselves....the very same people that (FACT) have been providing free food to the people protesting and sleeping on the street....i,ll come back in a while to see your written apology...i can tell you how i know my wife was there until 3days ago dishing out food and cleaning toilets +recieving donations from ordinary people there all written down on a board of what they spent.it on reciepts/etc...unless of course she was lying to me and was banging some wellhung stud instead.but im more inclined to believe her.as she was there and none of us were..as of this morning she and many people are protesting in ubon ratchathani.n/e thailand where we live..there not all red up here you know...

Sure, the rank and file, and toilet cleaners, food support, and other volunteers and the demonstrators themselves, naturally they include people from all walks of life. Many might have previously been former PTP supporters. However, what of the leadership of the present anti-government movement? Are they not all former leaders/senior affiliates of the yellow movement?

The statement by winstonc above does not mention anything about the leadership of the anti-government movement. The best reply I have seen so far is reference made by someone to the trade unions and that is a good start. Now we are talking.

[Emptyset]

My guess is that Abhisit and Suthep will refuse to let the Democrat party participate in the elections. Their only approach is to attack democracy itself since they cannot win an election. They will come up with some reason why it is contrary to true democracy for the Democrats to stand for election and appeal to the Army to solve the resulting "impasse" which they will have created.

Flawed logic there since not fielding a candidate is democratic, as is running a "no vote" campaign.

Those of you supporting the PTP as if they are democratic in nature need only look to the 3rd reading of the amnesty bill to see that this is not what they are. PTP completely disallowed the mandated debate on the reading of the bill, thus cutting out more than 30% of the population from access to the government. That is majoritarianism and not democracy.

So 19 hours of debate is classed as 'disallowed' by you? As I stated in a previous post, the UK government only debated the Iraq war for 10 hours, after a million or marched against it in central London. 19 hours is far longer than the constitutional amendments that the Democrats pushed through at 2:30 in the morning in 2011 (despite the fact PT MPs asked for the house to be adjourned until morning for further debate).

[Jasun]

Do they have referendums in Thailand? Fresh elections would be an opportunity to put a lot of these ongoing issues on the table.

[jdinasia]

Suthep: "I don't respect 'farangs'. We

do not have to surrender to them"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/454183-thailand-rejects-foreign-election-monitors/

That was with regards to election monitors. Anything else more concrete?

Yeah, the next more concrete thing would be to go back to pre-school. We don't really have the time to teach everything from there upwards.

You're cheering for someone who clearly hates foreigners. As a foreigner, you should be very worried. If you're not, then don't worry, you likely won't even see it coming when it happens and it won't hurt you.

Wrong again, Suthep does business with foreigners and foreign companies.

He does realize that foreign monitors of elections in Thailand will not be able to assess the situation. Being present on election day does not give any indication of electoral fraud other than being able to say "I did not see coercion or the handing over of cash"

[TVGerry]

Yeah, the next more concrete thing would be to go back to pre-school. We don't really have the time to teach everything from there upwards.

You're cheering for someone who clearly hates foreigners. As a foreigner, you should be very worried. If you're not, then don't worry, you likely won't even see it coming when it happens and it won't hurt you.

One quote regarding election monitors doesn't clearly show someone 'hating foreigners'. I'm a pragmatic man. If Suthep truly does hate foreigners, yes I would be worried since I like it here, warts and all. However, you have shown a single quote and then claim he hates foreigners all because he's on the other side of what you believe. Great muckraking skills there!

[jdinasia]

Do they have referendums in Thailand? Fresh elections would be an opportunity to put a lot of these ongoing issues on the table.

They do. However, a caretaker government is not able to call a referendum to the best of my knowledge.

All a caretaker government is allowed to do is to handle the day to day business of the government.

This is yet another way that the YL government dropped the ball.

[binjalin]

Suthep: "I don't respect 'farangs'. We

do not have to surrender to them"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/454183-thailand-rejects-foreign-election-monitors/

That was with regards to election monitors. Anything else more concrete?

Yeah, the next more concrete thing would be to go back to pre-school. We don't really have the time to teach everything from there upwards.

You're cheering for someone who clearly hates foreigners. As a foreigner, you should be very worried. If you're not, then don't worry, you likely won't even see it coming when it happens and it won't hurt you.

Wrong again, Suthep does business with foreigners and foreign companies.

He does realize that foreign monitors of elections in Thailand will not be able to assess the situation. Being present on election day does not give any indication of electoral fraud other than being able to say "I did not see coercion or the handing over of cash"

Suthep: "I don't respect 'farangs'. We

do not have to surrender to them"

wrong - he is a Thai Nationalist - it comes across loud and clear "we are Thai and we do not need foreign people assisting us in elections because... we are Thai" it's typical of nationalists in any country

[jackrich]

Since one quote is not enough, here is another, from last night:

Suthep said foreigners have been sent to spy among the protesters. They might cause chaos, light fire, and frame the protesters.

From last night, via @Aim_NT / The Nation

Edited December 9, 2013 by jackrich

[jdinasia]

My guess is that Abhisit and Suthep will refuse to let the Democrat party participate in the elections. Their only approach is to attack democracy itself since they cannot win an election. They will come up with some reason why it is contrary to true democracy for the Democrats to stand for election and appeal to the Army to solve the resulting "impasse" which they will have created.

Flawed logic there since not fielding a candidate is democratic, as is running a "no vote" campaign.

Those of you supporting the PTP as if they are democratic in nature need only look to the 3rd reading of the amnesty bill to see that this is not what they are. PTP completely disallowed the mandated debate on the reading of the bill, thus cutting out more than 30% of the population from access to the government. That is majoritarianism and not democracy.

So 19 hours of debate is classed as 'disallowed' by you? As I stated in a previous post, the UK government only debated the Iraq war for 10 hours, after a million or marched against it in central London. 19 hours is far longer than the constitutional amendments that the Democrats pushed through at 2:30 in the morning in 2011 (despite the fact PT MPs asked for the house to be adjourned until morning for further debate).

There was 0 hours of debate for the third reading (which was changed from the previous bill) for this amnesty bill. Please correct me if i am wrong, as you know I will listen. I will look for source for my statement now.

edit -- link sent to you privately, not sure if it is allowed on TVF. The second and third readings were done back to back after it was announced that the 3rd reading would take place on the 2nd of Nov.

Edited December 9, 2013 by jdinasia

[Jasun]

Do they have referendums in Thailand? Fresh elections would be an opportunity to put a lot of these ongoing issues on the table.

They do. However, a caretaker government is not able to call a referendum to the best of my knowledge.

All a caretaker government is allowed to do is to handle the day to day business of the government.

This is yet another way that the YL government dropped the ball.

At the very least she'll have to decide if the whole amnesty thing is policy or not. That, an issues such as changing the electoral system should be decided the country as a whole, not by one side in politics.

[Local Drunk]

Suthep: "I don't respect 'farangs'. We

do not have to surrender to them"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/454183-thailand-rejects-foreign-election-monitors/

That was with regards to election monitors. Anything else more concrete?

Yeah, the next more concrete thing would be to go back to pre-school. We don't really have the time to teach everything from there upwards.

You're cheering for someone who clearly hates foreigners. As a foreigner, you should be very worried. If you're not, then don't worry, you likely won't even see it coming when it happens and it won't hurt you.

Wrong again, Suthep does business with foreigners and foreign companies.

He does realize that foreign monitors of elections in Thailand will not be able to assess the situation. Being present on election day does not give any indication of electoral fraud other than being able to say "I did not see coercion or the handing over of cash"

RT @RichardBarrow: Foreigners warned they could be deported from #Thailand if they take part in political protests (Via @sweatyinbkk) http://t.co/ncttMOjwn7

Does this give you a sense of security Binjalin?

[Emptyset]

My guess is that Abhisit and Suthep will refuse to let the Democrat party participate in the elections. Their only approach is to attack democracy itself since they cannot win an election. They will come up with some reason why it is contrary to true democracy for the Democrats to stand for election and appeal to the Army to solve the resulting "impasse" which they will have created.

Flawed logic there since not fielding a candidate is democratic, as is running a "no vote" campaign.

Those of you supporting the PTP as if they are democratic in nature need only look to the 3rd reading of the amnesty bill to see that this is not what they are. PTP completely disallowed the mandated debate on the reading of the bill, thus cutting out more than 30% of the population from access to the government. That is majoritarianism and not democracy.

So 19 hours of debate is classed as 'disallowed' by you? As I stated in a previous post, the UK government only debated the Iraq war for 10 hours, after a million or marched against it in central London. 19 hours is far longer than the constitutional amendments that the Democrats pushed through at 2:30 in the morning in 2011 (despite the fact PT MPs asked for the house to be adjourned until morning for further debate).

There was 0 hours of debate for the third reading (which was changed from the previous bill) for this amnesty bill. Please correct me if i am wrong, as you know I will listen. I will look for source for my statement now.

You're right. I apologize, second & third readings combined were 19 hours. Democrats staged a walkout hence no debate during third reading: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Amnesty-bill-sails-through-third-reading-30218475.html

That was pretty dumb of the government. Obviously it would've passed anyway, but surely they should've expected a backlash (over this specific point) which could've been easily avoided.