Family of Brits murdered in Thailand say evidence convincing

[falangjim]

2. Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 58m58 minutes ago

   Koh Samui court head judge just asked both Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo: 'If u not involved in this crime, tell us who is. Don't be scared.'

DON'T BE SCARED?????

They are custody in Koh Samui and the judge thinks they would not be under threat if they name the headman of Koh Tao or his family - what a farce.

So Mr. Thai Judge. Why should they be scared? What are you implying in your question? Is there a reason you know about for someone to be scared?

[DennisF]

But the boy was not on the island, he was in Bangkok so whats your point ?

I have already explained that 1 week ago . He left the island before it happened , it could mean he left 2 weeks before or days before. You can not believe every word written in the Thai press. I wish you could leave this kid alone now, he has a life and thanks to social media bullshit it almost destroyed him. Do you know his feelings into all this ? If the B2 are scapegoats then what about him ?

You've made it clear you believe the alibi. Yet, you apparently didn't convince anyone. I would be the first to 'leave the kid alone' if there weren't a slew of factoids (some of which could be termed 'evidence') which incriminate him. There are also intriguing things which incriminate Mon, Mon's cop friend, and the so-called 'Stingray Man.' Those issues don't go away simply because the 2nd head man decided 'all of a sudden' () the perpetrators had to be Burmese. The RTP can claim the Headman's people are not suspects (have they actually articulated that? source?), but the RTP's credibility is lower than Pinnocio's.

Why instead of shutting people up because you say so you provide a cite for the claim that Nomsod's father left Koh Tao on the morning after the murders?

I think you may want to re-phrase your question. We're not concerned whether Nomsod's father left the island. It's his son's whereabouts which are of concern.

Please dont respond to him, they make these apparent errors to get a reaction and keep the negativity alive.

He has been asked a very simple question.

Until and if he answers that properly he has no right to expect any further communication on this thread.

Soon the 4 will be posting and answering each other only if we can just pretend they dont exist, which in a forum of ideas and debate, they dont.

[DennisF]

2. Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 58m58 minutes ago

   Koh Samui court head judge just asked both Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo: 'If u not involved in this crime, tell us who is. Don't be scared.'

DON'T BE SCARED?????

They are custody in Koh Samui and the judge thinks they would not be under threat if they name the headman of Koh Tao or his family - what a farce.

So Mr. Thai Judge. Why should they be scared? What are you implying in your question? Is there a reason you know about for someone to be scared?

Maybe his reasoning is that many Burmese ( I believe the number is 40) have fled back to their home country because of threats/fear of being implicated and the fact that there are reports in international media of Islanders being threatened not to talk.

No one is judging the Thai people here so lets not go off on that little pony, stick to the thread if you care about justice for all.

So yes, when people and their families have been threatened there IS a reason to be scared.

[Fat Haggis]

@Atomicalandy Zaw Lin/Wei Phyo words today: 'before we had no chance to prove our innocence, we are victims of influential people'

Did they say who this influential people are?

So now you're playing the dumb part? Oh yeah speculating isn't your thing is it?

Mind you it wasn't the Senior Thai policeman a thing either when he intimated David's friend killed them both in a jealous rage eh?

Your comments and responses bore the shit out of me too but they're great entertainment !!

[thailandchilli]

The following People and groups have doubts and concerns about the investigation

The Met Police (Scotland Yard)

Sondhi Limthongkul

Dr Pornthip

Burmese Government

99.99% of posters on the topics on thai visa .

423, 585 followers csi

The Thai National Human Rights Commission

Change.org 105,000

The following People and groups don’t have any concerns or doubts about the investigation

4 posters on thai visa

Not forgetting Andy Hall and I think Amnesty International were taking an interest.

We also have another couple to add, Reprieve the UK based fair trials rights group has already stated their serious concerns and that justice is not being seen to be done

&

The UK government also made it clear they were concerned at the alleged corruption ie coverup and the the lack of an independent DNA test of the B2

Edited December 26, 2014 by thailandchilli

[Willy Eckerslike]

This story of the two Burmese kids has been included in every news item on the BBC World Service today. With typical British restraint, 'You lying Thai a#holes'

Indeed. Furthermore at the bottom of the BBC page (link provided) you will see a bunch of links to newspapers such as the Independent covering the story.(look for 'From other news sites' heading) On many of these newspaper websites there is an opportunity to comment at the bottom of the KT articles. Get on those newspaper sites and start awakening the UK public to what is going on with this circus. These are all very recent stories (within past few hrs)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30602984

I could not find from other news sites

Here you go GC

From other news sites

• Reuters UK Lawyer confident of testimony to clear Myanmar duo of Britons' murders 40 mins ago
• Daily Express Trial of Thailand tourist murder suspects begins 2 hrs ago
• The Guardian Nigeria Thailand tourist double murder trial under way 3 hrs ago
• The Independent Thailand backpacker double murder trial begins 4 hrs ago
• Daily Star Thai tourist double murder trial begins with suspects facing death penalty if found guilty 5 hrs ago
• About these results

[Willy Eckerslike]

Oh Jayzuz! DON'T BITE BACk! Christ ...

My apologies, wont happen again.

Just wanted one thing that can shut them all up.

I have a couple more too but, Ill keep them to myself, I think this one should do the trick.

Why instead of shutting people up because you say so you provide a cite for the claim that Nomsod's father left Koh Tao on the morning after the murders?

[greenchair]

<p>

This story of the two Burmese kids has been included in every news item on the BBC World Service today. With typical British restraint, 'You lying Thai a#holes'

Indeed. Furthermore at the bottom of the BBC page (link provided) you will see a bunch of links to newspapers such as the Independent covering the story.(look for 'From other news sites' heading) On many of these newspaper websites there is an opportunity to comment at the bottom of the KT articles. Get on those newspaper sites and start awakening the UK public to what is going on with this circus. These are all very recent stories (within past few hrs)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30602984

I could not find from other news sites

Here you go GC

From other news sites

• Reuters UK Lawyer confident of testimony to clear Myanmar duo of Britons' murders 40 mins ago
• Daily Express Trial of Thailand tourist murder suspects begins 2 hrs ago
• The Guardian Nigeria Thailand tourist double murder trial under way 3 hrs ago
• The Independent Thailand backpacker double murder trial begins 4 hrs ago
• Daily Star Thai tourist double murder trial begins with suspects facing death penalty if found guilty 5 hrs ago
• About these results

Bless ?

[DennisF]

Thailandchilli and stealthenergiser make good points.

I bring them together for comparison and analysis by sensible people.

The following PROFESSIONAL people and organisations and members of the public have expressed serious concerns as to the handling of this case investigation and prosecution.

UK based fair rights group Reprieve.

Andy Hall well known and highly respected human rights activist.

Amnesty International.

The THAI national human rights committee

Sondhi Limthongkul

Head of Thasi forensics Dr. Pornthip

99% of the posters on this forum (estimate)

Almost 500,000 followers of a social media site that is in the top 18 sites on facebook

Change.org

The UK police who are just now starting to express opinions and views, none of them complimentary to the RTP

Lastly, and by no means least, the whole of the Burmese government has thrown its collective and not inconsiderable weight and influence into the believed innocence of 2 of its poorer citizens.

As for as I am aware this is unprecedented and not only can it bring serious consequences to international and trade relationships that are vital to Thailand it has lifted Myanmar to an elevated status on the international stage that Thaiiand can only envy.

Myanmar, its government and its people, we salute you, you are showing yourself to be awesome.

*Removed the baiting and insults*

Please look at the lists above and tell me with what authority or experience you think that your version of events is right and the listed ones above are wrong?

Edited December 26, 2014 by cdnvic
Removed the baiting and insults

[boomerangutang]

The two should be granted bail. Myanmar authorities have already offered to post bail and take responsibility for them showing up when they're supposed to. Thai authorities, by not agreeing to that reasonable request, are snubbing Myanmar in front of the world.

9 months is too long to wait for a decision. I'm concerned for the scapegoats' safety and well being while being incarcerated.

Plus, there are some types of evidence (or potential evidence) which becomes more obscure with the passing of time. bruises to the body, for example. It would fit with Nomsod evading police for a week after he was wanted as a prime suspect. Even when cops caught up with Nomsod, it's doubtful they did a thorough search of his body for injuries. Similarly, it's very doubtful that Mon or Mon's cop friend, or the 'Stingray Man' were subjected to full body searches directly after the crime. The complete lack of any investigation of bloody clothes - falls into the same category: "Dozens of Investigative Procedures Which Thai Officials Didn't Do" ...either because they didn't think of doing them, of they're lazy, or they knew that investigating such things would implicate the Headman's people.

[greenchair]

<p>

This story of the two Burmese kids has been included in every news item on the BBC World Service today. With typical British restraint, 'You lying Thai a#holes'

Indeed. Furthermore at the bottom of the BBC page (link provided) you will see a bunch of links to newspapers such as the Independent covering the story.(look for 'From other news sites' heading) On many of these newspaper websites there is an opportunity to comment at the bottom of the KT articles. Get on those newspaper sites and start awakening the UK public to what is going on with this circus. These are all very recent stories (within past few hrs)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30602984

I could not find from other news sites

Here you go GC

From other news sites

• Reuters UK Lawyer confident of testimony to clear Myanmar duo of Britons' murders 40 mins ago
• Daily Express Trial of Thailand tourist murder suspects begins 2 hrs ago
• The Guardian Nigeria Thailand tourist double murder trial under way 3 hrs ago
• The Independent Thailand backpacker double murder trial begins 4 hrs ago
• Daily Star Thai tourist double murder trial begins with suspects facing death penalty if found guilty 5 hrs ago
• About these results

How can I get the little men that move. I love the laughing one. My little faces don't move ?

[AleG]

@Atomicalandy Zaw Lin/Wei Phyo words today: 'before we had no chance to prove our innocence, we are victims of influential people'

Did they say who this influential people are?

So now you're playing the dumb part? Oh yeah speculating isn't your thing is it?

Mind you it wasn't the Senior Thai policeman a thing either when he intimated David's friend killed them both in a jealous rage eh?

Your comments and responses bore the shit out of me too but they're great entertainment !!

No, I'm not playing the dumb part, did they say who this influential people are, and if not, why?

Unless you are satisfied with empty rhetoric and don't want to know the facts of the case you should be asking the same question.

[AleG]

But the boy was not on the island, he was in Bangkok so whats your point ?

I have already explained that 1 week ago . He left the island before it happened , it could mean he left 2 weeks before or days before. You can not believe every word written in the Thai press. I wish you could leave this kid alone now, he has a life and thanks to social media bullshit it almost destroyed him. Do you know his feelings into all this ? If the B2 are scapegoats then what about him ?

You've made it clear you believe the alibi. Yet, you apparently didn't convince anyone. I would be the first to 'leave the kid alone' if there weren't a slew of factoids (some of which could be termed 'evidence') which incriminate him. There are also intriguing things which incriminate Mon, Mon's cop friend, and the so-called 'Stingray Man.' Those issues don't go away simply because the 2nd head man decided 'all of a sudden' () the perpetrators had to be Burmese. The RTP can claim the Headman's people are not suspects (have they actually articulated that? source?), but the RTP's credibility is lower than Pinnocio's.

Why instead of shutting people up because you say so you provide a cite for the claim that Nomsod's father left Koh Tao on the morning after the murders?

I think you may want to re-phrase your question. We're not concerned whether Nomsod's father left the island. It's his son's whereabouts which are of concern.

Indeed, the question was not phrased correctly, it's the kind of thing that happens when writing something at work and I'm interrupted in the middle.

Let's try again and see if someone can spare some time out of the echo chamber to answer: cite for Nomsod's father saying that his son left on the morning of the murders?

Edited December 26, 2014 by AleG

[greenchair]

The two should be granted bail. Myanmar authorities have already offered to post bail and take responsibility for them showing up when they're supposed to. Thai authorities, by not agreeing to that reasonable request, are snubbing Myanmar in front of the world.

9 months is too long to wait for a decision. I'm concerned for the scapegoats' safety and well being while being incarcerated.

Plus, there are some types of evidence (or potential evidence) which becomes more obscure with the passing of time. bruises to the body, for example. It would fit with Nomsod evading police for a week after he was wanted as a prime suspect. Even when cops caught up with Nomsod, it's doubtful they did a thorough search of his body for injuries. Similarly, it's very doubtful that Mon or Mon's cop friend, or the 'Stingray Man' were subjected to full body searches directly after the crime. The complete lack of any investigation of bloody clothes - falls into the same category: "Dozens of Investigative Procedures Which Thai Officials Didn't Do" ...either because they didn't think of doing them, of they're lazy, or they knew that investigating such things would implicate the Headman's people.

This is an important point. Can the defense not make a new application for bail. 9 months is such a long time. The Myanmar government would guarantee their attendance to court. I have seen plenty of people on murder charges out on bail. both here and in foreign countries. With so much doubt, I just don't think it is normal to keep people who have not been convicted in jail for almost a year.

[DennisF]

The two should be granted bail. Myanmar authorities have already offered to post bail and take responsibility for them showing up when they're supposed to. Thai authorities, by not agreeing to that reasonable request, are snubbing Myanmar in front of the world.

9 months is too long to wait for a decision. I'm concerned for the scapegoats' safety and well being while being incarcerated.

Plus, there are some types of evidence (or potential evidence) which becomes more obscure with the passing of time. bruises to the body, for example. It would fit with Nomsod evading police for a week after he was wanted as a prime suspect. Even when cops caught up with Nomsod, it's doubtful they did a thorough search of his body for injuries. Similarly, it's very doubtful that Mon or Mon's cop friend, or the 'Stingray Man' were subjected to full body searches directly after the crime. The complete lack of any investigation of bloody clothes - falls into the same category: "Dozens of Investigative Procedures Which Thai Officials Didn't Do" ...either because they didn't think of doing them, of they're lazy, or they knew that investigating such things would implicate the Headman's people.

This is an important point. Can the defense not make a new application for bail. 9 months is such a long time. The Myanmar government would guarantee their attendance to court. I have seen plenty of people on murder charges out on bail. both here and in foreign countries. With so much doubt, I just don't think it is normal to keep people who have not been convicted in jail for almost a year.

Unfortunately it is usual, a friend of mine was kept in a European prison for almost 18 months before being acquitted at trial.

No bail, and his friends, including me were prepared to put up 1m Euros.

His only crime was being the landlord of a house that was being used for illegal activities. He lived 400km from the house but they put him in prison anyway.

Its not only Thailand that does not recognise common sense in its legal system.

My friend was a changed man when he came out, took years for him to come to terms with it and even now his brother tells me he visibly shakes when it looks like a policeman is approaching him.

We cant know what the psychological impact will be on these poor 2 scapegoats.

[JOC]

Sorry, I haven't followed this thread for a while, so if any repeats I am sorry!!

Did I really understand it right, that the judge has scheduled the first witness hearings 8 months??

A couple of months ago according to the RTP, this case was 100%.

After being returned to the RTP from the prosecutors a number of times, the court decides to imprison the B2 for further 8-9 months??

Not only the RTP, but the whole "juridical" system in this country stinks!!

Very worried for the B2's and witnesses security, a lot of nasty "accidents" can happen in 9 months!!

Thaivisa Admin: This new development deserves a thread of its own.

[catsanddogs]

Another poster found this interesting comments from Met Police.

BBC News at approx 01:01:48

Met police Confusions and inconsistencies

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04ttl5c

About time too. Can't believe it's taken so long to get this news coverage out here in the UK. Let's up there's more of it to come.

[Willy Eckerslike]

Sorry, I haven't followed this thread for a while, so if any repeats I am sorry!!

Did I really understand it right, that the judge has scheduled the first witness hearings 8 months??

A couple of months ago according to the RTP, this case was 100%.

After being returned to the RTP from the prosecutors a number of times, the court decides to imprison the B2 for further 8-9 months??

Not only the RTP, but the whole "juridical" system in this country stinks!!

Very worried for the B2's and witnesses security, a lot of nasty "accidents" can happen in 9 months!!

Thaivisa Admin: This new development deserves a thread of its own.

Correct July.....that is providing the Judge does not do a swift U turn again and bring it forward by three months or so

[DennisF]

Sorry, I haven't followed this thread for a while, so if any repeats I am sorry!!

Did I really understand it right, that the judge has scheduled the first witness hearings 8 months??

A couple of months ago according to the RTP, this case was 100%.

After being returned to the RTP from the prosecutors a number of times, the court decides to imprison the B2 for further 8-9 months??

Not only the RTP, but the whole "juridical" system in this country stinks!!

Very worried for the B2's and witnesses security, a lot of nasty "accidents" can happen in 9 months!!

Thaivisa Admin: This new development deserves a thread of its own.

Correct July.....that is providing the Judge does not do a swift U turn again and bring it forward by three months or so

Good point but, I do not think the judge can do that.

If the defence can come up with the right kind of evidence or someone else confesses then that could change things.

Maybe why so many Burmese are escaping murder island.

Media attention may call for new scapegoats.

[falangjim]

2. Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 58m58 minutes ago

   Koh Samui court head judge just asked both Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo: 'If u not involved in this crime, tell us who is. Don't be scared.'

DON'T BE SCARED?????

They are custody in Koh Samui and the judge thinks they would not be under threat if they name the headman of Koh Tao or his family - what a farce.

So Mr. Thai Judge. Why should they be scared? What are you implying in your question? Is there a reason you know about for someone to be scared?

Maybe his reasoning is that many Burmese ( I believe the number is 40) have fled back to their home country because of threats/fear of being implicated and the fact that there are reports in international media of Islanders being threatened not to talk.

No one is judging the Thai people here so lets not go off on that little pony, stick to the thread if you care about justice for all.

So yes, when people and their families have been threatened there IS a reason to be scared.

That's my point. By asking the question in that way, he's acknowledging fear of reprisals. I think it's odd, that's all. BTW, I have no idea what you're on about in your second paragraph. I'll judge the Thai judge if I want. Would you trust anyone in the RTP or Thai legal system? I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Luang]

Best article to date by far, from the Telegraphl. For the life of me I can't understand what the FCO are playing at re. their involvement with those family statements?! Almost appears they are colluding with the RTP!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11313714/Koh-Tao-murders-suspects-in-killing-of-David-Miller-and-Hannah-Witheridge-say-they-were-framed.html

[DennisF]

I think it is worth a new post to reiterate 2 facts:

A limited and selected part of the evidence of the prosecution case was shown by the REGION 8 RTP to the families, delivered by GB police.

Their statement was released by the FCO who added the caveat that is does not necessarily reflect the FCO views.

The MET is now issuing radio interviews expressing its SERIOUS doubts about the investigation.

A lot of diplobabble but, if the MET is giving radio interviews, albeit on an afternoon radio show then make no mistake, it is a shot across the bows that the RTP and its sponsors would do well to take note of. This kind of interview is sanctioned at very senior levels and the content meticulously prepared.

In short, the GB police are pretty pi%%ed off at being made to look like the RTP and they are not going to take it lying down.

They may not be being as full on as the Myanmar government BUT they will make their views known.

I still have faith in the British police and its capabilities.

I also think there is a smoking gun out there and it will fire at some point before the trial begins.

Keep these threads populated with positive stuff.

[DennisF]

@ falangjim

My apologies, I missed that you were referring directly to the judge in the case.

I agree with you!!

[BritTim]

The two should be granted bail. Myanmar authorities have already offered to post bail and take responsibility for them showing up when they're supposed to. Thai authorities, by not agreeing to that reasonable request, are snubbing Myanmar in front of the world.

9 months is too long to wait for a decision. I'm concerned for the scapegoats' safety and well being while being incarcerated.

Plus, there are some types of evidence (or potential evidence) which becomes more obscure with the passing of time. bruises to the body, for example. It would fit with Nomsod evading police for a week after he was wanted as a prime suspect. Even when cops caught up with Nomsod, it's doubtful they did a thorough search of his body for injuries. Similarly, it's very doubtful that Mon or Mon's cop friend, or the 'Stingray Man' were subjected to full body searches directly after the crime. The complete lack of any investigation of bloody clothes - falls into the same category: "Dozens of Investigative Procedures Which Thai Officials Didn't Do" ...either because they didn't think of doing them, of they're lazy, or they knew that investigating such things would implicate the Headman's people.

First, I agree with you about bail, as long as Myanmar guarantees their appearance. I also think it would make Thailand look better.

On balance, I think the delay is positive for the defense. Usually in such cases in Thailand, delay provides an opportunity to intimidate and bribe potential witnesses. This time, I think witnesses have already been got at. The delay provides the defense time to reassure them over their safety and persuade them to say what they know. The defense lawyer intimated as much. I am a little more optimistic about the Burmese kids' chances than I was this morning.

[Luang]

I think it is worth a new post to reiterate 2 facts:

A limited and selected part of the evidence of the prosecution case was shown by the REGION 8 RTP to the families, delivered by GB police.

Their statement was released by the FCO who added the caveat that is does not necessarily reflect the FCO views.

The MET is now issuing radio interviews expressing its SERIOUS doubts about the investigation.

A lot of diplobabble but, if the MET is giving radio interviews, albeit on an afternoon radio show then make no mistake, it is a shot across the bows that the RTP and its sponsors would do well to take note of. This kind of interview is sanctioned at very senior levels and the content meticulously prepared.

In short, the GB police are pretty pi%%ed off at being made to look like the RTP and they are not going to take it lying down.

They may not be being as full on as the Myanmar government BUT they will make their views known.

I still have faith in the British police and its capabilities.

I also think there is a smoking gun out there and it will fire at some point before the trial begins.

Keep these threads populated with positive stuff.

Wish I could agree but the UK Police and FCO have been nothing short of a disgrace as far as I'm concerned. They should be ashamed of themselves putting politics and business interests before the safety of their own people!

[DennisF]

I think it is worth a new post to reiterate 2 facts:

A limited and selected part of the evidence of the prosecution case was shown by the REGION 8 RTP to the families, delivered by GB police.

Their statement was released by the FCO who added the caveat that is does not necessarily reflect the FCO views.

The MET is now issuing radio interviews expressing its SERIOUS doubts about the investigation.

A lot of diplobabble but, if the MET is giving radio interviews, albeit on an afternoon radio show then make no mistake, it is a shot across the bows that the RTP and its sponsors would do well to take note of. This kind of interview is sanctioned at very senior levels and the content meticulously prepared.

In short, the GB police are pretty pi%%ed off at being made to look like the RTP and they are not going to take it lying down.

They may not be being as full on as the Myanmar government BUT they will make their views known.

I still have faith in the British police and its capabilities.

I also think there is a smoking gun out there and it will fire at some point before the trial begins.

Keep these threads populated with positive stuff.

Wish I could agree but the UK Police and FCO have been nothing short of a disgrace as far as I'm concerned. They should be ashamed of themselves putting politics and business interests before the safety of their own people!

I agree it does look that way on the surface but the police had their hands tied officially and the FCO is, I think too, a waste of space.

The politics have gotten in the way but I am sure the police are trying to loosen the straitjacket they were bundled into.

I think they will manage to.

[falangjim]

@ falangjim

My apologies, I missed that you were referring directly to the judge in the case.

I agree with you!!

No worries. Take care.

[catsanddogs]

Oh well,the boys minder is back with rubbish.

Blabo: Why did his FATHER say he WAS on the island in 2 media interviews and change his story

immediately a new top cop was announced??

Dont ask for links, go get them yourself.

Then just answer that 1 question or stop your ridiculous he was in Bangkok repetition nonsense and go troll somewhere else.

I have already explained that 1 week ago . He left the island before it happened , it could mean he left 2 weeks before or days before. You can not believe every word written in the Thai press. I wish you could leave this kid alone now, he has a life and thanks to social media bullshit it almost destroyed him. Do you know his feelings into all this ? If the B2 are scapegoats then what about him ?

Heart bleeds.

[catsanddogs]

This story of the two Burmese kids has been included in every news item on the BBC World Service today. With typical British restraint, 'You lying Thai a#holes'

Indeed. Furthermore at the bottom of the BBC page (link provided) you will see a bunch of links to newspapers such as the Independent covering the story.(look for 'From other news sites' heading) On many of these newspaper websites there is an opportunity to comment at the bottom of the KT articles. Get on those newspaper sites and start awakening the UK public to what is going on with this circus. These are all very recent stories (within past few hrs)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30602984

'We are victims of influential people.'

They said.

Good to hear it from the horses mouths.

[Krenjai]

I hope and I am also convinced the B2 know there are 100.000's of people behind them, possibly even millions. Andy & others, please let them know we will stay with them ALL the way until they are free! The four on this forum who are on the other side have a lot to think about in the coming months, that includes their pal NS who'd better stay in monkhood for a long long time.