US calls planned Thai poll delay to 2016 'unwise'

[ding]

I think the USA isn't in the position to give recommendations......Instead they should consider to bring their own war criminals to court.

... all their presidents???

Crazy Chef 1 I like your style. That avatar is golden. Al Bundy for President and we're all one... one... uh

[rubl]

rubl, you claim that the EC had grave doubts about the YL government.

While that might be true, I never heard about it. Could you please elaborate?

Most of the wikileaks I'm not allowed to quote or link to. There's even one which clearly states that

"Diplomatic cables leaked by WikiLeaks reveal that the US essentially approved the military coup that toppled Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on September 19, 2006, while publicly distancing itself from the takeover. The cables shed further light on the anti-democratic activities of the US and other major powers behind the cloak of secret diplomacy."

Some of that leak is too close to LM to post here. Do some searching yourself.

how is that about the Yingluck government (which is what you stated)?

Rather than drifting off topic, I think the wikileaks I quoted gives an interesting twist to the USA calling plans Thai poll delay to 2016 unwise and unjustified.

[I Like Thai]

Why is it that when America speak negatively about Thailand or any other country it is seen as acceptable, but when anyone speaks negatively about America is it "America Bashing" or "America Hating"

Seems as though a lot of Americans on this thread operate a double standard.

You are not telling the truth. If you are and I'm wrong then use the quote function instead of general flames against one country or another. Unless you do that the only double standard will continue to be where it is now "in your mind."

You're American. I'm neither Thai nor American. You are biased in favour of America because you are American. I have no axe to grind with America/Americans or anyone else.

Why do you get upset when someone speaks negatively about America, but feel it's acceptable for America to speak negatively about other countries ?

[sjaak327]

But I get it, people that oppose the coup need to present proof

Glad you finally understand that. Please provide sources from now on.

So far, those who disagree with you have done a pretty consistent job providing sources. So far, you have been consistent in refusing to do so.

No Daffy, they have not. A wikileaks article about the US supposedly supporting the 2006 coup cannot be used as a source to substantiate the claim that the EC had doubts about the Yingluck governement.

For sources to support my claims, I refer to both the 2007 constitution and the current interim one. Pretty hard to ignore those Daffy.

[rubl]

But I get it, people that oppose the coup need to present proof

Glad you finally understand that. Please provide sources from now on.

So far, those who disagree with you have done a pretty consistent job providing sources. So far, you have been consistent in refusing to do so.

No Daffy, they have not. A wikileaks article about the US supposedly supporting the 2006 coup cannot be used as a source to substantiate the claim that the EC had doubts about the Yingluck governement.

For sources to support my claims, I refer to both the 2007 constitution and the current interim one. Pretty hard to ignore those Daffy.

Sjakie, from my Thai true internet connection I cannot access any site blocked by the authorities. Most of the 'interesting' sites have been blocked for a few years already. Only some pages referenced on other sites may be accessible.

So, like I often hear arguments that statements cannot have links due to restrictions may I now use the same argument ?

[thailiketoo]

Why is it that when America speak negatively about Thailand or any other country it is seen as acceptable, but when anyone speaks negatively about America is it "America Bashing" or "America Hating"

Seems as though a lot of Americans on this thread operate a double standard.

You are not telling the truth. If you are and I'm wrong then use the quote function instead of general flames against one country or another. Unless you do that the only double standard will continue to be where it is now "in your mind."

You're American. I'm neither Thai nor American. You are biased in favour of America because you are American. I have no axe to grind with America/Americans or anyone else.

Why do you get upset when someone speaks negatively about America, but feel it's acceptable for America to speak negatively about other countries ?

Because you are not telling the truth. I asked a simple question, "If you are and I'm wrong then use the quote function instead of general flames against one country or another. Unless you do that the only double standard will continue to be where it is now "in your mind."

For example (not true just an example). Why is it that when Wales speak negatively about Thailand or any other country it is seen as acceptable, but when anyone speaks negatively about Wales is it "Wales Bashing" or "Wales Hating"

The first thing anyone would ask is where? When? Use the quote function.

You wrote, "Why is it that when America speak negatively about Thailand or any other country it is seen as acceptable." That's a lie. This whole thread is testament to the fact that most of the posters on Thai Visa want America to mind its own business right or wrong.

[sjaak327]

But I get it, people that oppose the coup need to present proof

Glad you finally understand that. Please provide sources from now on.

So far, those who disagree with you have done a pretty consistent job providing sources. So far, you have been consistent in refusing to do so.

No Daffy, they have not. A wikileaks article about the US supposedly supporting the 2006 coup cannot be used as a source to substantiate the claim that the EC had doubts about the Yingluck governement.

For sources to support my claims, I refer to both the 2007 constitution and the current interim one. Pretty hard to ignore those Daffy.

Sjakie, from my Thai true internet connection I cannot access any site blocked by the authorities. Most of the 'interesting' sites have been blocked for a few years already. Only some pages referenced on other sites may be accessible.

So, like I often hear arguments that statements cannot have links due to restrictions may I now use the same argument ?

As far as I'm concerned you can use whatever excuse you deem fit.

However, the blocking of the Thai ministry of information (or whatever they are called) isn't particularly sophisticated and isn't difficult to circumvent.

Apart from this, it still doesn't explain why you submitted the Wikipedia quote in relation to the EC's position on Yingluck's government. In any case, what is relevant here is the EC's position on the current junta. They publicly have been pretty clear, and so far have not seen any indication they support the current junta.

[rubl]

As far as I'm concerned you can use whatever excuse you deem fit.

However, the blocking of the Thai ministry of information (or whatever they are called) isn't particularly sophisticated and isn't difficult to circumvent.

Apart from this, it still doesn't explain why you submitted the Wikipedia quote in relation to the EC's position on Yingluck's government. In any case, what is relevant here is the EC's position on the current junta. They publicly have been pretty clear, and so far have not seen any indication they support the current junta.

My dear chap, to circumvent the regulations is illegal and as 'guests' in this country something one should not do unless one wants to compromise ones 'legal alien' status.

Furthermore I stated that "Most of the wikileaks I'm not allowed to quote or link to. There's even one which clearly states that ..." followed with a quote much more relevant to the topic at hand.

Now as you may understand there is a difference between 'supporting' and 'condemning' and with the attitude of governments the saying "don't ask, don't tell" comes to mind as being somewhere in the middle and leaning one or the other side depending on circumstances.

[I Like Thai]

Why is it that when America speak negatively about Thailand or any other country it is seen as acceptable, but when anyone speaks negatively about America is it "America Bashing" or "America Hating"

Seems as though a lot of Americans on this thread operate a double standard.

You are not telling the truth. If you are and I'm wrong then use the quote function instead of general flames against one country or another. Unless you do that the only double standard will continue to be where it is now "in your mind."

You're American. I'm neither Thai nor American. You are biased in favour of America because you are American. I have no axe to grind with America/Americans or anyone else.

Why do you get upset when someone speaks negatively about America, but feel it's acceptable for America to speak negatively about other countries ?

Because you are not telling the truth. I asked a simple question, "If you are and I'm wrong then use the quote function instead of general flames against one country or another. Unless you do that the only double standard will continue to be where it is now "in your mind."

For example (not true just an example). Why is it that when Wales speak negatively about Thailand or any other country it is seen as acceptable, but when anyone speaks negatively about Wales is it "Wales Bashing" or "Wales Hating"

The first thing anyone would ask is where? When? Use the quote function.

You wrote, "Why is it that when America speak negatively about Thailand or any other country it is seen as acceptable." That's a lie. This whole thread is testament to the fact that most of the posters on Thai Visa want America to mind its own business right or wrong.

I have quoted you when replying to your posts. On my initial post in this train I did not quote anyone as my reply was not aimed at you, there were numerous posters that complained of America hating/bashing etc, not just you.

I think it incorrect for America or Wales or any other country to go and speak negatively about another country and try to tell that country what it should and shouldn't do.

If Wales had spoken likewise and there was a topic on Thai visa, then I would also say they were incorrect in their views. If a Welsh poster agreed with the view that Wales was entitled to slate another country and took exception to anyone saying Wales was not then accused them of Wales bashing, then I would also get the impression that they were using double standards.

[DaffyDuck]

It certainly isn't 'America bashing' to point out that America has no business admonishing Thailand about a lack of democracy, when America has a long history of toppling democracies, and setting up dictators and propping up strongmen in other countries.

[tbthailand]

As he clearly invited you to do "do some search yourself" - or is google, somehow, too technical a mystery to you?

Using your own prior logic, if the U.S. felt that way about Thaksin, then it is obvious they would feel the same way about his self-described 'clone' and would have the same reservations about her (ie supporting the coup in private while publicly claiming to distance themselves from it). Seems legit.

quack quack

mister 'that needs a citation' shows his trolling nature again

[sjaak327]

As far as I'm concerned you can use whatever excuse you deem fit.

However, the blocking of the Thai ministry of information (or whatever they are called) isn't particularly sophisticated and isn't difficult to circumvent.

Apart from this, it still doesn't explain why you submitted the Wikipedia quote in relation to the EC's position on Yingluck's government. In any case, what is relevant here is the EC's position on the current junta. They publicly have been pretty clear, and so far have not seen any indication they support the current junta.

My dear chap, to circumvent the regulations is illegal and as 'guests' in this country something one should not do unless one wants to compromise ones 'legal alien' status.

Furthermore I stated that "Most of the wikileaks I'm not allowed to quote or link to. There's even one which clearly states that ...[/size]

" followed with a quote much more relevant to the topic at hand.

Now as you may understand there is a difference between 'supporting' and 'condemning' and with the attitude of governments the saying "don't ask, don't tell" comes to mind as being somewhere in the middle and leaning one or the other side depending on circumstances.

There are ways to circumvent the ridiculous blocking of websites that are legal, unless of course connecting to a vpn outside of Thailand is illegal, which quite frankly would be unbelievable.

As to don't ask, don't tell, that sort of stuff doesn't belong in this discussion as it is impossible to verify. One needs to rely on public statements.

Edited December 30, 2014 by sjaak327

[DaffyDuck]

So, are you saying that the USA has *never* deposed democratically elected leaders and replaced them with a dictator (*cough* Shah of Iran *cough*) or supported military strongmen without whining about democracy (*cough* Panama's Manuel Noriega *cough*) - is that what you are saying?

[tbthailand]

Do they?

Rubl, you claim that the EC had grave doubts about the YL government.

While that might be true, I never heard about it. Could you please elaborate?

Most of the wikileaks I'm not allowed to quote or link to. There's even one which clearly states that

"Diplomatic cables leaked by WikiLeaks reveal that the US essentially approved the military coup that toppled Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on September 19, 2006, while publicly distancing itself from the takeover. The cables shed further light on the anti-democratic activities of the US and other major powers behind the cloak of secret diplomacy."

Some of that leak is too close to LM to post here. Do some searching yourself.

how is that about the Yingluck government (which is what you stated)?

like I said, Rubl, it may be true but I never heard that the EC had grave doubts about the Yingluck government

it was well known due in large part to WL that the US ambassador in 2006 sympathized with the yellow shirts and the coup. But that is nothing like what you are claiming. So I am wondering where it comes from.

[sjaak327]

So, are you saying that the USA has *never* deposed democratically elected leaders and replaced them with a dictator (*cough* Shah of Iran *cough*) or supported military strongmen without whining about democracy (*cough* Panama's Manuel Noriega *cough*) - is that what you are saying?

How is that even remotely relevant to Thailand ?

Why is the messenger being attacked here ? I understand the US isn't mother Theresa, but the message is 100% correct and justified. Nothing will change that.

Let us focus on the current military junta and how they broke the law to get to power.

[DaffyDuck]

Which is not what the thread is about. It's about the USA telling other countries how they ought to be a democracy, when they are the least qualified to do so. Nice attempt to move the goalposts and come to your buddy's rescue. The question to tbthailand's stands.

[sjaak327]

Which is not what the thread is about. It's about the USA telling other countries how they ought to be a democracy, when they are the least qualified to do so. Nice attempt to move the goalposts and come to your buddy's rescue. The question to tbthailand's stands.

There is no moving of goalposts here Daffy. The US IS a democracy. And as a democracy they have every right to question this undemocratic junta. The message is pretty clear and justified, your attempts at deflection and shooting the messenger have been duly noted, but the message remains justified regardless of your futile attempts.

Edited December 30, 2014 by sjaak327

[DaffyDuck]

So, I can only imagine your outrage and condemnation if a democratic nation like North Korean, or a democratic nation like Russia voiced their strong support for the Thai government.

A large percentage of commenters in this thread agree that the USA has no business critiquing Thailand considering the USA's history - it is quite funny to see your contortions in attempting to avoid acknowledging this.

[thailiketoo]

It certainly isn't 'America bashing' to point out that America has no business admonishing Thailand about a lack of democracy, when America has a long history of toppling democracies, and setting up dictators and propping up strongmen in other countries.

Or I in other words, do you think the EU wants Thailand to return to a democracy as soon as possible?

[thailiketoo]

I have quoted you when replying to your posts. On my initial post in this train I did not quote anyone as my reply was not aimed at you, there were numerous posters that complained of America hating/bashing etc, not just you.

I think it incorrect for America or Wales or any other country to go and speak negatively about another country and try to tell that country what it should and shouldn't do.

If Wales had spoken likewise and there was a topic on Thai visa, then I would also say they were incorrect in their views. If a Welsh poster agreed with the view that Wales was entitled to slate another country and took exception to anyone saying Wales was not then accused them of Wales bashing, then I would also get the impression that they were using double standards.

You wrote, "Why is it that when America speak negatively about Thailand or any other country it is seen as acceptable, but when anyone speaks negatively about America is it "America Bashing" or "America Hating"

Seems as though a lot of Americans on this thread operate a double standard.

Please provide one example.

You wrote, "I think it incorrect for America or Wales or any other country to go and speak negatively about another country and try to tell that country what it should and shouldn't do." This is obviously wrong as there have been many cases of massive human rights violations that all civilized countries of the world are bound to point out. Would you accept the Holocaust again and have other nations remain silent?

[halloween]

Unwise. From the country that gave us the GFC.

[DaffyDuck]

Or I in other words, do you think the EU wants Thailand to return to a democracy as soon as possible?

We're talking about the USA. Your attempt to move the goalposts is noted.

[thailiketoo]

Or I in other words, do you think the EU wants Thailand to return to a democracy as soon as possible?

We're talking about the USA. Your attempt to move the goalposts is noted.

jayboy, on 28 Dec 2014 - 10:38, said: " No EC country or Bangkok based Ambassador believes otherwise than Mr Kent on the defects of the current government, awkward though that may be for some of you."

You wrote, "I assume you have the sources to back up that claim? Oh right, you don't. As usual."

I wrote, "Or I in other words, do you think the EU wants Thailand to return to a democracy as soon as possible?"

I didn't move anything I was responding to a post by you about the voracity of the claim of another poster.

I don't understand why you won't answer the question, "Or I in other words, do you think the EU wants Thailand to return to a democracy as soon as possible?"

The US is only saying what every other free country is also saying. They may have a louder voice because they are an ally of Thailand but it's the same opinion.

So my question again is, " Or I in other words, do you think the EU wants Thailand to return to a democracy as soon as possible?"

[rubl]

Most of the wikileaks I'm not allowed to quote or link to. There's even one which clearly states that

"Diplomatic cables leaked by WikiLeaks reveal that the US essentially approved the military coup that toppled Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on September 19, 2006, while publicly distancing itself from the takeover. The cables shed further light on the anti-democratic activities of the US and other major powers behind the cloak of secret diplomacy."

Some of that leak is too close to LM to post here. Do some searching yourself.

how is that about the Yingluck government (which is what you stated)?

like I said, Rubl, it may be true but I never heard that the EC had grave doubts about the Yingluck government

it was well known due in large part to WL that the US ambassador in 2006 sympathized with the yellow shirts and the coup. But that is nothing like what you are claiming. So I am wondering where it comes from.

The WL quote is literal. I am not allowed to post the link as some content would be against forum rules leading to ban. Since I could find the WL page just using yahoo to search, you should be able to find the comple WL page using the quote I provided.

Forget about the EC, they're both too sophisticated and pragmatic AND they're not part of the topic. The topic is the USA calling plans for poll delay to 2016 unwise and unjustified.

[rubl]

So, are you saying that the USA has *never* deposed democratically elected leaders and replaced them with a dictator (*cough* Shah of Iran *cough*) or supported military strongmen without whining about democracy (*cough* Panama's Manuel Noriega *cough*) - is that what you are saying?

How is that even remotely relevant to Thailand ?

Why is the messenger being attacked here ? I understand the US isn't mother Theresa, but the message is 100% correct and justified. Nothing will change that.

Let us focus on the current military junta and how they broke the law to get to power.

Actually let us focus on the topic with the USA calling a poll delay to 2016 unwise and unjustified.

[rubl]

It certainly isn't 'America bashing' to point out that America has no business admonishing Thailand about a lack of democracy, when America has a long history of toppling democracies, and setting up dictators and propping up strongmen in other countries.

Or I in other words, do you think the EU wants Thailand to return to a democracy as soon as possible?

Probably the EU would like Thailand to finally become a democracy, but that has nothing to do with the topic.

[thailiketoo]

I think the point is that all free nations want free elections in all countries as soon as possible. I think trying to bash the USA is obfuscation of that message.

Perhaps the anti USA posters could point out another country that disagrees with the USA on this issue?

It is well and good to point out all of the shortcomings of the USA and there are many but this topic deals with elections and I do think on this issue the USA speaks for the entire free world.

The only Western people I have read not agreeing with ASAP elections are posters on Thai Visa.

Edited December 31, 2014 by thailiketoo

[tbthailand]

Most of the wikileaks I'm not allowed to quote or link to. There's even one which clearly states that

"Diplomatic cables leaked by WikiLeaks reveal that the US essentially approved the military coup that toppled Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on September 19, 2006, while publicly distancing itself from the takeover. The cables shed further light on the anti-democratic activities of the US and other major powers behind the cloak of secret diplomacy."

Some of that leak is too close to LM to post here. Do some searching yourself.

how is that about the Yingluck government (which is what you stated)?

like I said, Rubl, it may be true but I never heard that the EC had grave doubts about the Yingluck government

it was well known due in large part to WL that the US ambassador in 2006 sympathized with the yellow shirts and the coup. But that is nothing like what you are claiming. So I am wondering where it comes from.

The WL quote is literal. I am not allowed to post the link as some content would be against forum rules leading to ban. Since I could find the WL page just using yahoo to search, you should be able to find the comple WL page using the quote I provided.

Forget about the EC, they're both too sophisticated and pragmatic AND they're not part of the topic. The topic is the USA calling plans for poll delay to 2016 unwise and unjustified.

Forget about the Europeans? They're not part of the topic?

Really, I was asking due to your post #219 that's all. Thought it was odd and had never heard anything like that before.

re: WL - no problems there, got all that. Just curious about your #219 comment. OK chaimai?

[tbthailand]

So, are you saying that the USA has *never* deposed democratically elected leaders and replaced them with a dictator (*cough* Shah of Iran *cough*) or supported military strongmen without whining about democracy (*cough* Panama's Manuel Noriega *cough*) - is that what you are saying?

How is that even remotely relevant to Thailand ?

Why is the messenger being attacked here ? I understand the US isn't mother Theresa, but the message is 100% correct and justified. Nothing will change that.

Let us focus on the current military junta and how they broke the law to get to power.

Actually let us focus on the topic with the USA calling a poll delay to 2016 unwise and unjustified.

good point, Rubl.

The USA is right.

[tbthailand]

So, are you saying that the USA has *never* deposed democratically elected leaders and replaced them with a dictator (*cough* Shah of Iran *cough*) or supported military strongmen without whining about democracy (*cough* Panama's Manuel Noriega *cough*) - is that what you are saying?

How is that even remotely relevant to Thailand ?

Why is the messenger being attacked here ? I understand the US isn't mother Theresa, but the message is 100% correct and justified. Nothing will change that.

Let us focus on the current military junta and how they broke the law to get to power.

Actually let us focus on the topic with the USA calling a poll delay to 2016 unwise and unjustified.

good point, Rubl.

The USA is right.