70 years on and they still pull the holocaust card for sympathy.

Rest of the world has moved on and I suggest they do also.

Not saying to forget but it's time to heal old wounds.

Most Jews lived in Europe at that time and something like 2/3rds of them were murdered in cold blood. Many Germans from that time are still living. I am pretty sure that they deserve sympathy for the Holocaust a lot longer than just one generation of Europeans.

You are both bloody wrong!

Herr Hans Gruber, we are discussing here the OP "Germans have skeptical view of Israel".

Your post is insulting!

6,000,000 lives taken for no reason whatsoever! And you are talking about "pulling the holocaust card for sympathy".

I perceive disdain and scepticism in your wording.

If I were a victim or a relative of a victim - I would demand more than sympathy!

And I deny Germany the right to have sceptical view of Israel! They can only feel guilt!

Your talk about "rest of the world has moved on" and your suggestion - can be stuck into your own healed old wound.

You are not qualified to give such advice.

As to Ulysses, - Jews or/and Israelis do not need any sympathy! And the "old wounds" cannot be healed!

What Israelis and Jews need is Memory! Never forget! And the right to live, to exist on that damned puny rocky dry patch of land given to them by UN (or as they believe by their God)!

It is this right of theirs that those bloody 'generations of Europeans' including but not limited to Germans cannot live with.

What did the world give them in return for 6,000,000 lives of their people?

Nothing! Or next to nothing! Or something so useless that nobody even wanted or owned it before they came.

Plus a bunch of Muslim Arab nomads who for millennia were only tending their camels there.

The world has given these suffering half exterminated people 'sympathy' and a time bomb right under their feet!

The Israelis got a raw deal from the world. They have to fight every day for their life and existence.

Yet the very same Jews have given to the world more than any other 'great' nation. Despite the perpetual war, terrorists and hostile opinion of many generations of those piss-weak Europeans.

Yes, they fight well! Bravo! And they will always kick their enemies arse! Simply because they cannot afford to lose.

But this does not help the 'healing' process, sorry.

Well, Israel can't afford to badly lose even one war, that's for sure, or Israel is over. Of course many would celebrate that, some posting here clearly.

...

What Israelis and Jews need is Memory! Never forget!

...

Yes, NEVER FORGET!

In 1982 I visited friends of mine in Olmitz in the czech republic, ( we drove a lorry from Germany full of potato for them) My friends Grand Father was there

( a czech Jew ) He said to me,and warned me, The Germans will at some stage have another Fuhrer,mark my words! These words I have never forgotten

and beleive to be 100% true.

Never forget never.

Who are interested who are the real aggressor must look this Video on YouTube.

An honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel - from Miko Peled, Son of General Peled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

Miko Peled, apart from being a fine human being a nice guy - also belongs to what could be termed fringe far left.

His opinions are genuine, but to take this them as objective would be mistaken.

Well, as a member of the Zionist fringe you would say that wouldn't you. Your litotes doesn't fool anyone.

I think Miko Peled is a very brave man to speak the truth and he is very well qualified considering his background. One day he will be hailed as a righteous Israeli.

Me? Zionist fringe? Interesting.

Not that I clearly know what that means, but judging from my on record and consistent views regarding Israel's illegal (here it is again) settlement efforts, I'd say I would probably not be well accepted at your fantasy "Zionist Fringe", whatever this may be.

Miko Peled is indeed a good and brave man, all the more so for publicly holding unpopular politically fringe opinions. Perhaps it would do to point out that terming something fringe does not necessarily mean one is diametrically opposed to said views, the all or nothing tunnel vision is boring. As for his views being "the truth" - this is in as much as political opinion is true. How is Peled "very well qualified considering his background" is anybody's guess - there are ex-special forces and sons of generals on most sides of the Israeli political spectrum. Israel's Prime Minister is ex-special forces, does this suggest that his is "very well qualified considering his background" as well? As far as I am concerned, Miko Peled could be hailed as a righteous Israeli right now, but he's still in the fringe politics zone.

And one last pearl, in another post you erroneously stated that "the fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence were illegal Jewish immigrants mainly from Eastern Europe speaks volumes" (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/795049-study-germans-have-skeptical-view-of-israel/?p=8995267) - would that include Miko Peled's grandfather?

"His grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer on the Israeli Declaration of Independence."

http://mikopeled.com/

If you believe that Jews anywhere in the world have an automatic right [some religious nut jobs say god given right] to live in Israel simply because they have a Jewish grandmother or have converted to Judaism, while Palestinians who were actually born there do not, then you are a Zionist.

Ex IDF Special Forces Miko Peled is indeed qualified to tell the truth about the suffering to the Palestinians caused by Israel’s establishment through the mass immigration and aggression of Zionists..he, his father, and his grandfather have been part of that Zionist military machine that caused the problem. He has now turned to making peace with his neighbors, something PM Netanyahu has never dreamt of doing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled

Nothing erroneous about my statement at all... 36 out of 37 of Israel’s founders were illegal immigrants born outside Palestine and indeed it is a pearl that speaks volumes. Here’s the list along with their birthplaces:

Eliyahu Berligne (Belarus), Eliyahu Dobkin (Belarus), Eliezer Kaplan (Belarus), Avraham Katznelson (Belarus), Moshe Kolodny (Belarus), David Remez (Belarus), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belarus), Zerach Warhaftig (Belarus), Aharon Zisling (Belarus), Meir David Loewenstein (Denmark), Fritz Bernstein (Germany), Wolf Gold (Germany), Felix Rosenblueth (Germany), David-Zvi Pinkas (Hungary), Herzl Vardi (Lithuania), Meir Vilner (Lithuania), Yehuda Leib Fishman (Moldova), Meir Grabovsky (Moldova), Avraham Granovsky (Moldova), David Ben-Gurion (Poland), Mordechai Bentov (Poland), Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Poland), Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Poland), Zvi Luria (Poland), Nahum Nir (Poland), Zvi Segal (Poland), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Tiberias), Daniel Auster (Ukraine), Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukraine), Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukraine), Kalman Kahana (Ukraine), Golda Meyerson (Ukraine), Berl Repetur (Ukraine), Ben-Zion Sternberg (Ukraine), Moshe Shertok (Ukraine), Saadia Kobashi (Yemen), Mordechai Shatner (Latvia)

If you believe that Jews anywhere in the world have an automatic right [some religious nut jobs say god given right] to live in Israel simply because they have a Jewish grandmother or have converted to Judaism, while Palestinians who were actually born there do not, then you are a Zionist.

Stop the foolishness. Israel is a sovereign country and it is up to them who they allow to become citizens - not those of your ilk. It is not up to you or the radical Muslims whose violent behavior and terrorist attacks you constantly make excuses and justifications for.

6,000,000 lives taken for no reason whatsoever! And you are talking about "pulling the holocaust card for sympathy".

I perceive disdain and scepticism in your wording.

If I were a victim or a relative of a victim - I would demand more than sympathy!

And I deny Germany the right to have sceptical view of Israel! They can only feel guilt!

Thanks for providing such a clear example of why sympathy is evaporating. Modern Germans have nothing to do with what happened and should put an end to the 'extortion racket' that the Holocaust Industry has become. Der Spiegel mentions this... http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/new-wave-of-shoah-claims-holocaust-groups-demand-more-compensation-from-germany-a-515984.html

'...there is another group of plaintiffs who are eyed with suspicion, even by Israeli critics of past compensation programs. These are the children of Holocaust survivors, the so-called second generation. Psychologists assume that some of them -- estimates put the proportion at between 5 and 10 percent -- have literally inherited the trauma of their parents. A class action suit has been filed against Germany on behalf of these second-generation survivors -- something that the author Teitelbaum calls a "scandal" that trivializes the suffering of actual survivors.'

and the all-time classic... "just give us the money."

The financial misuse of this event is bad enough but the political misuse is legion. This, from Haaretz, talks about Netenyahu but the same principle applies to others... http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/netanyahu-must-stop-misusing-the-holocaust-1.409191

'...stop using it as a trump card to score political points. Doing so cheapens the Holocaust; it clouds the mind, and it distorts historical and political judgment.'

Some forum members may wish to take note.

...

What Israelis and Jews need is Memory! Never forget!

...

Yes, NEVER FORGET!

Well, Jingthing, thanks for this one.

Love Ben Kingsley. Great actor.

But even he, speaking on the topic very sore for Jews, cannot avoid being Politically Correct.

True, the Europeans didn't grieve the murdered Jews.

Many of those piss weak representatives of European Culture are regretting that Hitler didn't finish the job.

The truth of the matter is: - Why blame only Hitler? Why blame only Nazis? Why blame only Germans?

As if the other nations didn't join in these atrocities. They did... and quite enthusiastically.

And not only French, Austrians. Latvians, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Croats and so on - the nations occupied by Germans, but Swedes, Norwegians, British and even Americans!

I do not wish to point at the facts supporting what I say.

Because I know I am being politically very incorrect. And not even apologising for it. Because it is true.

And because nobody wants to hear it! Nobody wants to listen! Nobody likes the truth!

Antisemitism or Jew hating permeates almost every nation.

IMHO this is because:

- the world was hurting Jews for Millennia. And our psycho hates those we hurt;

- the world owes Jews for their sufferings and for their contribution to the world. And our psycho does not like our creditors;

- the world is piss-weak in front of Islam except for the uncompromising Jews. And the people of the world are ashamed. Another reason to hate the Jews;

- many people of the world think Jews to be smarter than they are. Another reason to hate Jews;

- most people of the world see Jews as different (different God, language, appearance, customs etc.). Another reason to hate Jews;

- in every single country and in the whole world Jews are a minority. Another reason to hate them, use them as scapegoats and blame them for anything.

I like the Jews. I am fascinated by their history. I like their humor directed at anything but firstly at themselves. I admire their defiance in the face of overwhelming hostile majority.

I do not share their Religion. I am not a Religious type. But I appreciate the fact that they keep it to themselves. They do not force it on the world like you know who. Yes, I mean Muslims.

And I do not feel they are smarter than I am.

There are people I hate.

Among them there are some Jews.

But I cannot imagine hating a Jew because he is a Jew!

Many hot headed Jews haters here on TV.

I wonder if the Jews have collectively pissed in their beer?

Or spat in their tea?

Or maybe furnicated with their mom?

Unlikely... but maybe, just maybe these people are afraid of being dumber?...

Have a nice day all of you guys.

Miko Peled, apart from being a fine human being a nice guy - also belongs to what could be termed fringe far left.

His opinions are genuine, but to take this them as objective would be mistaken.

Well, as a member of the Zionist fringe you would say that wouldn't you. Your litotes doesn't fool anyone.

I think Miko Peled is a very brave man to speak the truth and he is very well qualified considering his background. One day he will be hailed as a righteous Israeli.

Me? Zionist fringe? Interesting.

Not that I clearly know what that means, but judging from my on record and consistent views regarding Israel's illegal (here it is again) settlement efforts, I'd say I would probably not be well accepted at your fantasy "Zionist Fringe", whatever this may be.

Miko Peled is indeed a good and brave man, all the more so for publicly holding unpopular politically fringe opinions. Perhaps it would do to point out that terming something fringe does not necessarily mean one is diametrically opposed to said views, the all or nothing tunnel vision is boring. As for his views being "the truth" - this is in as much as political opinion is true. How is Peled "very well qualified considering his background" is anybody's guess - there are ex-special forces and sons of generals on most sides of the Israeli political spectrum. Israel's Prime Minister is ex-special forces, does this suggest that his is "very well qualified considering his background" as well? As far as I am concerned, Miko Peled could be hailed as a righteous Israeli right now, but he's still in the fringe politics zone.

And one last pearl, in another post you erroneously stated that "the fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence were illegal Jewish immigrants mainly from Eastern Europe speaks volumes" (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/795049-study-germans-have-skeptical-view-of-israel/?p=8995267) - would that include Miko Peled's grandfather?

"His grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer on the Israeli Declaration of Independence."

http://mikopeled.com/

If you believe that Jews anywhere in the world have an automatic right [some religious nut jobs say god given right] to live in Israel simply because they have a Jewish grandmother or have converted to Judaism, while Palestinians who were actually born there do not, then you are a Zionist.

Ex IDF Special Forces Miko Peled is indeed qualified to tell the truth about the suffering to the Palestinians caused by Israel’s establishment through the mass immigration and aggression of Zionists..he, his father, and his grandfather have been part of that Zionist military machine that caused the problem. He has now turned to making peace with his neighbors, something PM Netanyahu has never dreamt of doing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled

Nothing erroneous about my statement at all... 36 out of 37 of Israel’s founders were illegal immigrants born outside Palestine and indeed it is a pearl that speaks volumes. Here’s the list along with their birthplaces:

Eliyahu Berligne (Belarus), Eliyahu Dobkin (Belarus), Eliezer Kaplan (Belarus), Avraham Katznelson (Belarus), Moshe Kolodny (Belarus), David Remez (Belarus), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belarus), Zerach Warhaftig (Belarus), Aharon Zisling (Belarus), Meir David Loewenstein (Denmark), Fritz Bernstein (Germany), Wolf Gold (Germany), Felix Rosenblueth (Germany), David-Zvi Pinkas (Hungary), Herzl Vardi (Lithuania), Meir Vilner (Lithuania), Yehuda Leib Fishman (Moldova), Meir Grabovsky (Moldova), Avraham Granovsky (Moldova), David Ben-Gurion (Poland), Mordechai Bentov (Poland), Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Poland), Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Poland), Zvi Luria (Poland), Nahum Nir (Poland), Zvi Segal (Poland), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Tiberias), Daniel Auster (Ukraine), Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukraine), Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukraine), Kalman Kahana (Ukraine), Golda Meyerson (Ukraine), Berl Repetur (Ukraine), Ben-Zion Sternberg (Ukraine), Moshe Shertok (Ukraine), Saadia Kobashi (Yemen), Mordechai Shatner (Latvia)

Except for the Yemeni, a bunch of Caucasians.....ironically much closer genetically to Aryans than to Semites.

If you believe that Jews anywhere in the world have an automatic right [some religious nut jobs say god given right] to live in Israel simply because they have a Jewish grandmother or have converted to Judaism, while Palestinians who were actually born there do not, then you are a Zionist.

Stop the foolishness. Israel is a sovereign country and it is up to them who they allow to become citizens - not those of your ilk. It is not up to you or the radical Muslims whose violent behavior and terrorist attacks you constantly make excuses and justifications for.

Sovereign country or not, Israel clearly employs a racist/religionist supremacist criterion for citizenship. Whereas Israeli Arabs are not even allowed to marry Palestinians from the West Bank even after security vetting. Gotta maintain racial superiority eh.

Perhaps that’s why modern Germans find fault with Israel. They experienced enough of that sort of attitude in their own history.

6,000,000 lives taken for no reason whatsoever! And you are talking about "pulling the holocaust card for sympathy".

I perceive disdain and scepticism in your wording.

If I were a victim or a relative of a victim - I would demand more than sympathy!

And I deny Germany the right to have sceptical view of Israel! They can only feel guilt!

Thanks for providing such a clear example of why sympathy is evaporating. Modern Germans have nothing to do with what happened and should put an end to the 'extortion racket' that the Holocaust Industry has become. Der Spiegel mentions this... http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/new-wave-of-shoah-claims-holocaust-groups-demand-more-compensation-from-germany-a-515984.html

'...there is another group of plaintiffs who are eyed with suspicion, even by Israeli critics of past compensation programs. These are the children of Holocaust survivors, the so-called second generation. Psychologists assume that some of them -- estimates put the proportion at between 5 and 10 percent -- have literally inherited the trauma of their parents. A class action suit has been filed against Germany on behalf of these second-generation survivors -- something that the author Teitelbaum calls a "scandal" that trivializes the suffering of actual survivors.'

and the all-time classic... "just give us the money."

The financial misuse of this event is bad enough but the political misuse is legion. This, from Haaretz, talks about Netenyahu but the same principle applies to others... http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/netanyahu-must-stop-misusing-the-holocaust-1.409191

'...stop using it as a trump card to score political points. Doing so cheapens the Holocaust; it clouds the mind, and it distorts historical and political judgment.'

Some forum members may wish to take note.

Choctastic, there is very little chance of us agreeing on anything concerning Jews.

I clearly state I like them.

You are never admitting the obvious fact that you hate them.

But your mercantile misreading of my post speaks volumes of your thinking.

Read my lips: any Jew that accepted any money in the way of compensation for his dead relatives killed during Holocaust is a pig!

When I said "I would demand more than sympathy" - money was not on my mind.

Let me put it in a simple way: If you killed my father or child - no money in the world would buy you my forgiveness!

Sovereign country or not, Israel clearly employs a racist/religionist supremacist criterion for citizenship.

Israel is a Jewish state and can grant citizenship to who they like and while the Arab League supports the right of any Arab to become citizens of any Arab country, they have a single exception: Palestinians. Why do you completely ignore this hypocrisy?

The marriage restriction in Israel is not limited to Israeli Arabs. It applies to Jews as well and exemptions can be granted for Palestinian men over the age of 35, or women over 25. As one judge said: "Human rights are not a prescription for national suicide. As long as the Palestinians embrace terrorism, Israel has the right to protect themselves from it.

Sovereign country or not, Israel clearly employs a racist/religionist supremacist criterion for citizenship.

Israel is a Jewish state and can grant citizenship to who they like and while the Arab League supports the right of any Arab to become citizens of any Arab country, they have a single exception: Palestinians. Why do you say nothing about this hypocrisy?

The marriage restriction in Israel is not limited to Israeli Arabs. It applies to Jews as well and exemptions can be granted for Palestinian men over the age of 35, or women over 25. As one judge said: "Human rights are not a prescription for national suicide. As long as the Palestinians embrace terrorism, Israel has the right to protect themselves from it.

So even more racial stereotyping... the Jewish Israeli judge and you claim ALL Palestinians are terrorists.

Didn’t the Nazis profile ALL Jews in the same way as “enemies of the state”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themes_in_Nazi_propaganda#Jews

...I am astounded at the irony in your statement. And you wonder why modern Germans have little respect for Israel and its apologists.

Love Ben Kingsley. Great actor.

But even he, speaking on the topic very sore for Jews, cannot avoid being Politically Correct.

As Kingsley says. He's a storyteller. I take issue with him that the whole of Europe should somehow grieve. Europe did their bit by defeating Hitler, with many of our sons dying for it. And what do we get in return? 'Not good enough'. Our sacrifice is not good enough. We don't understand collective Jewish pain. We can't be allowed to forget because that would make us insensitive and uncaring. He profers this notion at the same time that Israel is busily 'mowing the lawn' in Gaza.

Your smear is slanderous. I do not hate Jews. Just as I don't hate Muslims or Christians or Blacks or Gays or anyone else. Hate is a destructive emotion. We've had enough of hate driving the world. No? What I dislike is the evil of political Zionism and criminals exploiting the holocaust for financial or political gain. I also don't care for the disingenuous dumping of guilt on the rest of Europe, when you should be expressing gratitude. This does not apply to the great many decent Jews. Just the 'professional wailers' with an agenda. They don't know when to shut up and as such, do a great disservice to world Jewry. People have had enough of it.

There is no need to excoriate today's Germans for someone else's crimes. I don't see 'anti-semitism' but I certainly see 'anti-German'.

The exclusivity of Jewish suffering is another cause of resentment. The message is clear. Only Jews matter. When we see Hollywood make movies about Operation Barberossa where the Nazis murdered MILLIONS of Russians labelled as 'sub-human' then I may have more sympathy. But those who control Hollywood don't care about Russians or anyone else who died in WWII.

If you want others to have sympathy for Jewish deaths in WWII, then show some sympathy for those who suffered in the Nakba. Sympathy should be for ALL innocents who die at the hands of brutes. Stop behaving as if only Jewish lives matter. THEN you will get your sympathy. Although after 50 years of this my bucket is empty, the well is dry. How much more of this do you expect people to imbibe?

So even more racial stereotyping.

As usual, you ignore Arab policies and zero in on the Jewish state for hateful rants. Palestinians are not allowed to become citizens of Arab countries. Palestinians face severe travel restrictions in the Arab world. They do not receive passports and their travel documents are only accepted by a few countries. Palestinians cannot vote or run for office in national elections. Children born to Palestinians do not get citizenship Arab countries either, which violates Article 7 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. What utter hypocrisy ignoring Arab restrictions on other Arabs that are far worse than Israel's.

As usual, you ignore Arab policies and zero in on the Jewish state for hateful rants. Palestinians are not allowed to become citizens of Arab countries. Palestinians face severe travel restrictions in the Arab world. They do not receive passports and their travel documents are only accepted by a few countries. Palestinians cannot vote or run for office in national elections. Children born to Palestinians do not get citizenship Arab countries either, which violates Article 7 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. What utter hypocrisy ignoring Arab restrictions on other Arabs.

That's because Palestinians already have a home to go to...it's called Palestine...currently occupied by Zionists.

More hypocrisy. Arabs are allowed to emigrate to other Arab countries, no matter where their "home" is, unless they are Palestinians. They are unwanted pawns that are treated much worse by their own people than Israel.

More hypocrisy. Arabs are allowed to emigrate to other Arab countries, no matter where their "home" is, unless they are Palestinians. They are unwanted pawns that are treated much worse by their own people than Israel.

Their home is in Palestine, but they can't be absent for too long, because Israel will revoke their right of residency... a subtle form of more ethnic cleansing. But of course a Jew who has never set eyes on the place can come and go as he pleases, maintaining as many passports as he likes.

More Israeli apartheid hypocrisy.

Israel admits it revoked residency rights of a quarter million Palestinians

Many of those prevented from returning were students or young professionals, working aboard to support their families.

Israel stripped more than 100,000 residents of Gaza and some 140,000 residents of the West Bank of their residency rights during the 27 years between its conquest of the territories in 1967 and the establishment of the Palestinian Authority in 1994.

As a result, close to 250,000 Palestinians who left the territories were barred from ever returning.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-admits-it-revoked-residency-rights-of-a-quarter-million-palestinians-1.435778

@Jingthing Poty, not really, bubbie/dude.

More hypocrisy. Arabs are allowed to emigrate to other Arab countries, no matter where their "home" is, unless they are Palestinians. They are unwanted pawns that are treated much worse by their own people than Israel.

Their home is in Palestine, but they can't be absent for too long, because Israel will revoke their right of residency... a subtle form of more ethnic cleansing. But of course a Jew who has never set eyes on the place can come and go as he pleases, maintaining as many passports as he likes.

More Israeli apartheid hypocrisy.

Israel admits it revoked residency rights of a quarter million Palestinians

Many of those prevented from returning were students or young professionals, working aboard to support their families.

Israel stripped more than 100,000 residents of Gaza and some 140,000 residents of the West Bank of their residency rights during the 27 years between its conquest of the territories in 1967 and the establishment of the Palestinian Authority in 1994.

As a result, close to 250,000 Palestinians who left the territories were barred from ever returning.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-admits-it-revoked-residency-rights-of-a-quarter-million-palestinians-1.435778

In my book that is ethnic cleansing.

Miko Peled, apart from being a fine human being a nice guy - also belongs to what could be termed fringe far left.

His opinions are genuine, but to take this them as objective would be mistaken.

Well, as a member of the Zionist fringe you would say that wouldn't you. Your litotes doesn't fool anyone.

I think Miko Peled is a very brave man to speak the truth and he is very well qualified considering his background. One day he will be hailed as a righteous Israeli.

Me? Zionist fringe? Interesting.

Not that I clearly know what that means, but judging from my on record and consistent views regarding Israel's illegal (here it is again) settlement efforts, I'd say I would probably not be well accepted at your fantasy "Zionist Fringe", whatever this may be.

Miko Peled is indeed a good and brave man, all the more so for publicly holding unpopular politically fringe opinions. Perhaps it would do to point out that terming something fringe does not necessarily mean one is diametrically opposed to said views, the all or nothing tunnel vision is boring. As for his views being "the truth" - this is in as much as political opinion is true. How is Peled "very well qualified considering his background" is anybody's guess - there are ex-special forces and sons of generals on most sides of the Israeli political spectrum. Israel's Prime Minister is ex-special forces, does this suggest that his is "very well qualified considering his background" as well? As far as I am concerned, Miko Peled could be hailed as a righteous Israeli right now, but he's still in the fringe politics zone.

And one last pearl, in another post you erroneously stated that "the fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence were illegal Jewish immigrants mainly from Eastern Europe speaks volumes" (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/795049-study-germans-have-skeptical-view-of-israel/?p=8995267) - would that include Miko Peled's grandfather?

"His grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer on the Israeli Declaration of Independence."

http://mikopeled.com/

If you believe that Jews anywhere in the world have an automatic right [some religious nut jobs say god given right] to live in Israel simply because they have a Jewish grandmother or have converted to Judaism, while Palestinians who were actually born there do not, then you are a Zionist.

Ex IDF Special Forces Miko Peled is indeed qualified to tell the truth about the suffering to the Palestinians caused by Israel’s establishment through the mass immigration and aggression of Zionists..he, his father, and his grandfather have been part of that Zionist military machine that caused the problem. He has now turned to making peace with his neighbors, something PM Netanyahu has never dreamt of doing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled

Nothing erroneous about my statement at all... 36 out of 37 of Israel’s founders were illegal immigrants born outside Palestine and indeed it is a pearl that speaks volumes. Here’s the list along with their birthplaces:

Eliyahu Berligne (Belarus), Eliyahu Dobkin (Belarus), Eliezer Kaplan (Belarus), Avraham Katznelson (Belarus), Moshe Kolodny (Belarus), David Remez (Belarus), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belarus), Zerach Warhaftig (Belarus), Aharon Zisling (Belarus), Meir David Loewenstein (Denmark), Fritz Bernstein (Germany), Wolf Gold (Germany), Felix Rosenblueth (Germany), David-Zvi Pinkas (Hungary), Herzl Vardi (Lithuania), Meir Vilner (Lithuania), Yehuda Leib Fishman (Moldova), Meir Grabovsky (Moldova), Avraham Granovsky (Moldova), David Ben-Gurion (Poland), Mordechai Bentov (Poland), Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Poland), Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Poland), Zvi Luria (Poland), Nahum Nir (Poland), Zvi Segal (Poland), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Tiberias), Daniel Auster (Ukraine), Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukraine), Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukraine), Kalman Kahana (Ukraine), Golda Meyerson (Ukraine), Berl Repetur (Ukraine), Ben-Zion Sternberg (Ukraine), Moshe Shertok (Ukraine), Saadia Kobashi (Yemen), Mordechai Shatner (Latvia)

*posts removed to allow reply*

I see you're bent on making this another platform for your usual pro-Palestinian agenda, with only minimal effort to tie it to the topic at hand. Not surprising.

To begin with, you decreed me a "a member of the Zionist fringe", not just any ordinary Zionist. Can't tell is this means my status was downgraded or upgraded. Seeing as on previous topics you demonstrated a fuzzy notion, at best, with regard to Zionism, it is also not surprising you'll get it wrong once again. Countries have different immigration policies and some are more pluralistic than others. Israel, Thailand, the future state of Palestine and many others, tend toward a an exclusive approach. Most Western countries (if they are the assumed bench mark) display more liberal policies.

We have no argument regarding Miko Peled's character and credentials. The question was in what way are his personal history and experience superior to others who can make similar (if not better) claims to ancestry and military record while holding quite different opinions?

As for the nonsensical list and claim regarding the signatories of the Israeli Declaration of Independence - the country of origin does not denote that a person was an illegal immigrant, a concept quite clear to most of us foreigners staying in Thailand. The only relevant rules at the time were Ottoman and British, not Dextermian.

<snip>

Eliyahu Berligne (Belarus), Eliyahu Dobkin (Belarus), Eliezer Kaplan (Belarus), Avraham Katznelson (Belarus), Moshe Kolodny (Belarus), David Remez (Belarus), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belarus), Zerach Warhaftig (Belarus), Aharon Zisling (Belarus), Meir David Loewenstein (Denmark), Fritz Bernstein (Germany), Wolf Gold (Germany), Felix Rosenblueth (Germany), David-Zvi Pinkas (Hungary), Herzl Vardi (Lithuania), Meir Vilner (Lithuania), Yehuda Leib Fishman (Moldova), Meir Grabovsky (Moldova), Avraham Granovsky (Moldova), David Ben-Gurion (Poland), Mordechai Bentov (Poland), Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Poland), Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Poland), Zvi Luria (Poland), Nahum Nir (Poland), Zvi Segal (Poland), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Tiberias), Daniel Auster (Ukraine), Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukraine), Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukraine), Kalman Kahana (Ukraine), Golda Meyerson (Ukraine), Berl Repetur (Ukraine), Ben-Zion Sternberg (Ukraine), Moshe Shertok (Ukraine), Saadia Kobashi (Yemen), Mordechai Shatner (Latvia)

Except for the Yemeni, a bunch of Caucasians.....ironically much closer genetically to Aryans than to Semites.

If you're going to engage in racial claptrap, at least get it right. There's another example even on that list. Happy hunting.

6,000,000 lives taken for no reason whatsoever! And you are talking about "pulling the holocaust card for sympathy".

I perceive disdain and scepticism in your wording.

If I were a victim or a relative of a victim - I would demand more than sympathy!

And I deny Germany the right to have sceptical view of Israel! They can only feel guilt!

Thanks for providing such a clear example of why sympathy is evaporating. Modern Germans have nothing to do with what happened and should put an end to the 'extortion racket' that the Holocaust Industry has become. Der Spiegel mentions this... http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/new-wave-of-shoah-claims-holocaust-groups-demand-more-compensation-from-germany-a-515984.html

'...there is another group of plaintiffs who are eyed with suspicion, even by Israeli critics of past compensation programs. These are the children of Holocaust survivors, the so-called second generation. Psychologists assume that some of them -- estimates put the proportion at between 5 and 10 percent -- have literally inherited the trauma of their parents. A class action suit has been filed against Germany on behalf of these second-generation survivors -- something that the author Teitelbaum calls a "scandal" that trivializes the suffering of actual survivors.'

and the all-time classic... "just give us the money."

The financial misuse of this event is bad enough but the political misuse is legion. This, from Haaretz, talks about Netenyahu but the same principle applies to others... http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/netanyahu-must-stop-misusing-the-holocaust-1.409191

'...stop using it as a trump card to score political points. Doing so cheapens the Holocaust; it clouds the mind, and it distorts historical and political judgment.'

Some forum members may wish to take note.

Reading the whole article (the quote in the post is actually on page 2) a more balanced view emerges. The issue described in the quote is not central to the article as a whole, but comes to illustrate an extreme example. Much of the rest touches on the issues concerning post-war restitution - and there could be cases made for either side in these negotiations not being upfront. For example -

Officials at Berlin's government ministries have varying opinions on just how far this responsibility goes. Diplomats in the Foreign Ministry are fundamentally willing to talk, partly because they are only too aware of the methods the Adenauer administration used to reduce compensation payments. Under its policy, compensation was only paid to those who had been imprisoned for at least six months in a concentration camp or one year in the ghetto. Untold numbers of Nazi victims were excluded because they were not part of the "German linguistic and cultural sphere."

That there are some looking to make money off the Holocaust is not debated. The suggested implication that all complaints raised are just about greed, is. Seeing as this article is from 2007 - care to inform us how things actually panned out? Or just another hit and run thing?

As for political misuse of the Holocaust - yes. This is indeed demeaning, dishonest and often a "cry wolf" behavior which could, in my opinion, have negative consequences. Once again, this needs to be qualified, as not every instance of bringing up the Holocaust in political context is considered misuse. I would further agree that Netanyahu is definitely over-doing it, by any standards.

It would also be worthwhile to point out that both articles incorporate critical Jewish views.

Sovereign country or not, Israel clearly employs a racist/religionist supremacist criterion for citizenship.

Israel is a Jewish state and can grant citizenship to who they like and while the Arab League supports the right of any Arab to become citizens of any Arab country, they have a single exception: Palestinians. Why do you say nothing about this hypocrisy?

The marriage restriction in Israel is not limited to Israeli Arabs. It applies to Jews as well and exemptions can be granted for Palestinian men over the age of 35, or women over 25. As one judge said: "Human rights are not a prescription for national suicide. As long as the Palestinians embrace terrorism, Israel has the right to protect themselves from it.

So even more racial stereotyping... the Jewish Israeli judge and you claim ALL Palestinians are terrorists.

Didn’t the Nazis profile ALL Jews in the same way as “enemies of the state”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themes_in_Nazi_propaganda#Jews

...I am astounded at the irony in your statement. And you wonder why modern Germans have little respect for Israel and its apologists.

It's a wonder you don't get tired of re-hashing the same issues over and over again, even when proven to be incorrect.

The marriage restriction thing is both hyperbole in terms of numbers and its severity. This was discussed numerous times on past topics, each one ending without much support for the propaganda view suggested.

Example - no one but you claims that all Palestinians are terrorists, rather the ruling simply acknowledged that there were legit security considerations. But you already knew that.....

And the last line is a textbook one....inflicting your view as being the one of "modern Germans". May I suggest you read the OP again, check the figures, and make a humbler claim?

Sovereign country or not, Israel clearly employs a racist/religionist supremacist criterion for citizenship.

Israel is a Jewish state and can grant citizenship to who they like and while the Arab League supports the right of any Arab to become citizens of any Arab country, they have a single exception: Palestinians. Why do you say nothing about this hypocrisy?

The marriage restriction in Israel is not limited to Israeli Arabs. It applies to Jews as well and exemptions can be granted for Palestinian men over the age of 35, or women over 25. As one judge said: "Human rights are not a prescription for national suicide. As long as the Palestinians embrace terrorism, Israel has the right to protect themselves from it.

So even more racial stereotyping... the Jewish Israeli judge and you claim ALL Palestinians are terrorists.

Didn’t the Nazis profile ALL Jews in the same way as “enemies of the state”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themes_in_Nazi_propaganda#Jews

...I am astounded at the irony in your statement. And you wonder why modern Germans have little respect for Israel and its apologists.

I didn't know about the Arab prohibition against Palestinians.......is it perhaps in place because Palestinians as a group are actually the closest thing to a true Semite that exists in the world?

Those poor downtrodden people! Hated and discriminated against by Israel, discriminated against by the whole of right wing America, and also discriminated against by Arabs. So sad.

The Germans are in a bind, haunted by their past they look for Nazis, but they are looking in the wrong place, well most of them are.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/24/german-anti-islamisation-marches-what-the-mainstream-media-doesnt-want-you-to-know/

This is why they vilify the anti-Islamisation marches by falsely alluding to memories of Nazism, what a sad inversion of the truth. Israel is fighting against the new Nazis, as Europe will be soon. The media know this but spin lies for reasons I can only speculate on.

<snip>

Eliyahu Berligne (Belarus), Eliyahu Dobkin (Belarus), Eliezer Kaplan (Belarus), Avraham Katznelson (Belarus), Moshe Kolodny (Belarus), David Remez (Belarus), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belarus), Zerach Warhaftig (Belarus), Aharon Zisling (Belarus), Meir David Loewenstein (Denmark), Fritz Bernstein (Germany), Wolf Gold (Germany), Felix Rosenblueth (Germany), David-Zvi Pinkas (Hungary), Herzl Vardi (Lithuania), Meir Vilner (Lithuania), Yehuda Leib Fishman (Moldova), Meir Grabovsky (Moldova), Avraham Granovsky (Moldova), David Ben-Gurion (Poland), Mordechai Bentov (Poland), Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Poland), Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Poland), Zvi Luria (Poland), Nahum Nir (Poland), Zvi Segal (Poland), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Tiberias), Daniel Auster (Ukraine), Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukraine), Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukraine), Kalman Kahana (Ukraine), Golda Meyerson (Ukraine), Berl Repetur (Ukraine), Ben-Zion Sternberg (Ukraine), Moshe Shertok (Ukraine), Saadia Kobashi (Yemen), Mordechai Shatner (Latvia)

Except for the Yemeni, a bunch of Caucasians.....ironically much closer genetically to Aryans than to Semites.

If you're going to engage in racial claptrap, at least get it right. There's another example even on that list. Happy hunting.

In your two sentences you contradict yourself. The first sentence implies I'm wrong about the races, the second confirms that I'm right.

However, the above could be misplaced criticism if by claptrap you meant to convey that race has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Race has everything to do with the Zionist justification of it's "project".

I didn't know about the Arab prohibition against Palestinians.......is it perhaps in place because Palestinians as a group are actually the closest thing to a true Semite that exists in the world?

More nonsense from a master of it. The Palestinians speak Arabic and are no more "semitic" than anyone else that speaks a semitic language. That is what the word semitic refers to.

70 years on and they still pull the holocaust card for sympathy.

Rest of the world has moved on and I suggest they do also.

Not saying to forget but it's time to heal old wounds.

Most Jews lived in Europe at that time and something like 2/3rds of them were murdered in cold blood. Many Germans from that time are still living. I am pretty sure that they deserve sympathy for the Holocaust a lot longer than just one generation of Europeans.

You are both bloody wrong!

Herr Hans Gruber, we are discussing here the OP "Germans have skeptical view of Israel".

Your post is insulting!

6,000,000 lives taken for no reason whatsoever! And you are talking about "pulling the holocaust card for sympathy".

I perceive disdain and scepticism in your wording.

If I were a victim or a relative of a victim - I would demand more than sympathy!

And I deny Germany the right to have sceptical view of Israel! They can only feel guilt!

Your talk about "rest of the world has moved on" and your suggestion - can be stuck into your own healed old wound.

You are not qualified to give such advice.

As to Ulysses, - Jews or/and Israelis do not need any sympathy! And the "old wounds" cannot be healed!

What Israelis and Jews need is Memory! Never forget! And the right to live, to exist on that damned puny rocky dry patch of land given to them by UN (or as they believe by their God)!

It is this right of theirs that those bloody 'generations of Europeans' including but not limited to Germans cannot live with.

Nothing! Or next to nothing! Or .

Plus a

The world has given these suffering half exterminated people 'sympathy' and a time bomb right under their feet!

The Israelis got a raw deal from the world. They have to fight every day for their life and existence.

Yet the very same Jews have given to the world more than any other 'great' nation. Despite the perpetual war, terrorists and hostile opinion of many generations of those piss-weak Europeans.

Yes, they fight well! Bravo! And they will always kick their enemies arse! Simply because they cannot afford to lose.

But this does not help the 'healing' process, sorry.

"What did the world give them in return for 6,000,000 lives of their people?" World gave them as much as it gave to most of the others who suffered during the war.

"something so useless that nobody even wanted or owned it before they came. bunch of Muslim Arab nomads who for millennia were only tending their camels there."

Palestine was much more than rocky dry patch of land. Palestine had all the infrastructure that is needed for official statehood in place.

Many lives lost 1939-45. Not just Jews.No need to forget just don't dwell on it. Asking special attention while your own extremists are repeating history is just pathetic!

I don't know the actual figures. Germany pays every year, and has been since the war, serious sums to Israel.

So Why World should pay or why the world owes at all to the jews??.

The perennial argument. Israel was created after WW2 as a way for western governments to show sorrow and sympathy for the apallingly treated jews of Europe during that war.

Your history is terrible, although your intentions might be good.

1948 was the official date that Israel was established, but it had been in the pipeline long before WW II. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 endorsed the establishment in Palestine of a "national home for the Jewish people." Both Jews and Arabs from other areas had started flocking to the area long before that and Jews had a continual presence for over 3,000 years. Most of the Arabs living there did not own any land at all and rented from absentee landlords in other Arab countries.

The "Palestinians" started calling themselves that in about 1967 after losing their 3rd major war to Israel. The land that Israel took over for defensive reasons was already occupied by other Arab countries and had nothing to do with the mythical nation of "Palestine" that never existed. .

My history is O.K. - Palestine was promised to both parties, sort of, during the course of WW1. Lawrence of Arabia had the word from London and the UK thought it might help with fund raising if they intimated that a jewish state was possible(The jewish state was evenb mooted for the Kimberley in WA and MAdagascar (empire madness)). It was all part of the Ottoman empire prior to that (for many centuries). The arbitrary lines drawn by Sykes & Picot saw the creation of Palestine and Jordan as well as Lebanon, Syria et al. Jewish immigration to Palestine was a hot topic. Unfortunately, the good people in both camps were overwhelmed by the extremists. Stern gang and Irgun people who were murdering British soldiers during WW2 for instance (now translates as Likud). Some of the Arab states flirting with Hitler. I feel terribly sorry for long term Palestinians (former Ottoman Empire residents), most of whom were displaced. I feel sorry for some of the early kibbutzniks, who were better natured than those later arrivals who have politically overwhelmed them.

Your history is great, but your understanding of Israel's present demographics and political map reminiscent of 70s 80s.

kibbutzniks don't are very capitalist these days and are not automatically belong to the communist party.some of them belong to the right wing parties.

Also it is true that the former leaders of the Irgun became the first leader of the Likud but since then new people joined it, the Irgun was dismantle and outlawed already at the founding of the country.

Today most of the Israelis, including people who used to be left wing have right wing opinions. That doesn't mean they don't want peace. The first peace treaty between israel and an Arab country was signed by the Likud party. They are just more pragmatic in their approach then the left wing according to israelis.