I am heartened to see the Avaaz on line petition to help Raif Badawi, the blogger threatened with execution in Saudi Arabia currently approach one million signatures.

This is powerful tool which can bring about change in a sustained and peaceful way.

I would applaud if a committed Thai person launches a similar petition to our PM, in Thai and English, pointing out that:-

-Fires are started by totally utterly uncaring selfish people, who deserve to be severely punished

-Now is the time to stamp it out - once and for all

-No previous government has been able to stop it, due to corruption and apathy

-It is a serious health hazard to the population, and to wildlife.

-Lung cancer rates are higher here than any other part of Thailand

-The incidence of heart attacks increases dramatically during the burning season.

-It is immensely distressing to elderly people with breathing problems and chest conditions

-It is likely to damage the health and shorten the lives of younger people

-It damages and discourages tourism, conferences and meetings

-It reduces the quality of life for all who live here.

-The current penalties and enforcement are totally inadequate

-The government should introduce harsh penalties for offenders, such as fines of 200,000 Baht, plus two years in prison

-Vigilantes, paid and voluntary, can be set up to guard forests and other potential burning areas.

-Substantial rewards can be awarded for successful convictions.

This obviously needs a responsible Thai person to create the wording, and a good translator to turn it into English. I would sign such a document, without hesitation. It can be created at Avaaz

I would think hundreds of thousands of residents would do the same.

Firstly, the laws are already in place. The difficult part is trying to get the authorities to seriously take note and enforce these issues you have mentioned.

Actual enforcements have to begin with the local authorities, the district councils that hold the jurisdictions in collaboration with the heads of villages and communities. There is much more involved and required than just filing an online petition.

Good luck to all who sail in her.

They're all too busy running their little scams and side deals to do anything that resembles work.

They're all too busy running their little scams and side deals to do anything that resembles work.

Great contribution and very informative. Thanks.

I don't think this PM cares about Chiangmai...

Admirable but nobody in authority cares. Most of the burning is taking place on their land.

And as pointed out the laws and fines etc are already in place but they are unlikely to indict themselves.

And I really don't see foreigners in Thailand putting their detais on any petition.

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If farming on encroached forests is illegal, promoting and buying produce from protected areas must be illegal too. Banks which give loans to farmers must also be taken to task for supporting destructive...

Admirable but nobody in authority cares. Most of the burning is taking place on their land.

And as pointed out the laws and fines etc are already in place but they are unlikely to indict themselves.

And I really don't see foreigners in Thailand putting their detais on any petition.

Exactly! ... Nobody in authority cares because nobody bothers to protest in an effective and assertive way. Year after year, people suffer the effects of the burning, complain bitterly to each other, write letters to newspapers, savvy tourists stay away, and residents (who can do so) move out of town for two months.

Meanwhile the people who burn snigger at the impotency of everybody to stop them. Yes, laws are in place, but there has never been an incentive for enforcement with a civilian government. Even so, the current 'penalties' are laughable.

Yes, some people burn on their own land, but much of it is in provincial forests where you can very often see whole hillsides on fire - when the rain comes the mushroom crop is very profitable, thank you.

There is a big difference in smoke volume and the duration of combustion between rice fields and burning forests.

An amateur petition to Prime Minister Yingluk in 2013 featured on ThaiVisa attracted 4,000 odd signatures, and got nowhere.

A professionally-managed petition such as Avaaz sent to our PM (who I believe is a caring and responsible person) with a few hundred thousand signatures would have a huge impact, and hit global headlines.

If everybody reacts in the same apathetic way as most of the current replies to my original post, then we get what we deserve, and we will continue to do so for years to come.

Rest my case.

People in Thailand do not like to put their names to anything as generally it's always somebody else's problem. How many fire starters do you think have been reported and THB5000 rewards given?

And foreigners/ farangs most certainly would not want to do it under normal circumstances and most certainly not under military rule.

It's just the way it is here and will not change anytime soon.

Better not make the PM angry,best to keep a low profile,

no rocking the boat,remember we are only allowed to

live here at the whims of the powerful,and at the moment

the PM is the most powerful man in the Government.

Maybe things will get done when revenue is lost, due to

tourists not wishing to visit the North of Thailand,money

is a great motivator here.

regards Worgeordie

I am surrounded by cane fields. The burning of that does not bother me.

What does bother me is people complaining about burning. This process is a natural weed killer for the other whiners. It is also a natural fertilizer.

If you want an alternative then I suggest ponying up the money for the poor and under paid farmers.

It is the cheapest way and it cuts down on weed killer use.

On the burning of the forests, That method has been used worldwide for centuries to control underbrush to prevent larger forest fires with additional benefits.

You liberals are the same worldwide. You want everything done your way without doing or costing you, anything that would inconvenience you.

Re-educating the ignorant rural Thai people, wishing you success.

Re-educating the ignorant rural Thai people, wishing you success.

Probably easier than reeducating the expats to accept that they are in a foreign country with different ways and a different logic system.

Year after year the same complaints.

Years ago before the internet, 24h information overload and online forums. All I noticed about the burning season was sometimes you couldn't see Doi Suthip mountain even when you were right next to it around CMU. The Bangkok Post would report flights couldn't land at Mae Hong Son airport for days on end and it was hot, too hot. That was it. I lived my normal life, didn't worry about anything. Maybe ignorance is the way forward. If you don't think its a problem then it isn't a problem!

Pretty much of burnings happen across the border in Burma.

Air quality this bad should be a source of National shame.

I am surrounded by cane fields. The burning of that does not bother me.

What does bother me is people complaining about burning. This process is a natural weed killer for the other whiners. It is also a natural fertilizer.

If you want an alternative then I suggest ponying up the money for the poor and under paid farmers.

It is the cheapest way and it cuts down on weed killer use.

On the burning of the forests, That method has been used worldwide for centuries to control underbrush to prevent larger forest fires with additional benefits.

You liberals are the same worldwide. You want everything done your way without doing or costing you, anything that would inconvenience you.

Because you find some situation or condition acceptable doesn't mean it should be tolerated by everyone else. Furthermore, if being poor is a good reason to put at risk the health of 100s of thousand of people then an argument could be made that being wealthy is equally a good reason to put at risk the health of other people. Politicizing the desire for clean air is a stretch at best... Change is a fundamental law of the Universe and it's time for a change in regards to what is an acceptable practice for farming, forestry, etc.

The old dc3 spraying water around the air is working perfectly. It was all clear today!

On the burning of the forests, That method has been used worldwide for centuries to control underbrush to prevent larger forest fires with additional benefits.

Yes, and lead was used for water pipes until they determined that it was a serious public health issue.

I am surrounded by cane fields. The burning of that does not bother me.

What does bother me is people complaining about burning. This process is a natural weed killer for the other whiners. It is also a natural fertilizer.

If you want an alternative then I suggest ponying up the money for the poor and under paid farmers.

It is the cheapest way and it cuts down on weed killer use.

On the burning of the forests, That method has been used worldwide for centuries to control underbrush to prevent larger forest fires with additional benefits.

You liberals are the same worldwide. You want everything done your way without doing or costing you, anything that would inconvenience you.

Because you find some situation or condition acceptable doesn't mean it should be tolerated by everyone else. Furthermore, if being poor is a good reason to put at risk the health of 100s of thousand of people then an argument could be made that being wealthy is equally a good reason to put at risk the health of other people. Politicizing the desire for clean air is a stretch at best... Change is a fundamental law of the Universe and it's time for a change in regards to what is an acceptable practice for farming, forestry, etc.

Reality is all we can do is post useless posts on Thai Visa. We can how ever ask questions like if it is intolerable to one why don't they move to a locale that is tolerable to them. Take a look at the problems that immigration is having with the number of ex pats coming to Chiang Mai. Apparently it is not that big a problem for many people.

You got to love these Farongs who come over here seeking to reform thee locale they live in to what they want. I don't like the smog but it is acceptable to me that is why I do not move to a smog less location.

I think a lot of the farangs who don't move and then state air pollution is tolerable probably are driven mainly by their cost of living as the over-riding priority in their life vs other factors like clean air quality of life natural beauty sustainable development human health etc...

Their response is at least health care air filters masks movies indoor shipping centers hookers are cheap cheap cheap....

They are a prisoner of their own net worth...

CB

Petitions can be effective in open, democratic societies where citizen action is a normal and respected part of public decision making. Unfortunately, Thailand has a very weak record in appreciating and supporting such voices. By last count, I believe that about 22 Thai environmentalists have been assassinated since 2000. People aren't dumb; they are aware of the risks of speaking up too loudly. No one is going to get shot for signing a petition, but once it comes down to local monitoring and enforcement, things get ugly. The other problem of course is that this pollution crisis has been decades in the making. Bad policies have made the poor poorer, and these are the folk who can only rely on the natural environment to survive. Meanwhile, those with means have grabbed land, cut forests, diverted water, pursued very unsustainable agriculture, and pushed terrible urban sprawl and consumerism with impunity. If these problems could be solved with a stroke of the pen by someone "in power," they wouldn't be so dire today.

I am surrounded by cane fields. The burning of that does not bother me.

What does bother me is people complaining about burning. This process is a natural weed killer for the other whiners. It is also a natural fertilizer.

If you want an alternative then I suggest ponying up the money for the poor and under paid farmers.

It is the cheapest way and it cuts down on weed killer use.

On the burning of the forests, That method has been used worldwide for centuries to control underbrush to prevent larger forest fires with additional benefits.

You liberals are the same worldwide. You want everything done your way without doing or costing you, anything that would inconvenience you.

Because you find some situation or condition acceptable doesn't mean it should be tolerated by everyone else. Furthermore, if being poor is a good reason to put at risk the health of 100s of thousand of people then an argument could be made that being wealthy is equally a good reason to put at risk the health of other people. Politicizing the desire for clean air is a stretch at best... Change is a fundamental law of the Universe and it's time for a change in regards to what is an acceptable practice for farming, forestry, etc.

Get up and do something about it.

On the burning of the forests, That method has been used worldwide for centuries to control underbrush to prevent larger forest fires with additional benefits.

Yes, and lead was used for water pipes until they determined that it was a serious public health issue.

Don't tell me. Get up and do something about it.

I think a lot of the farangs who don't move and then state air pollution is tolerable probably are driven mainly by their cost of living as the over-riding priority in their life vs other factors like clean air quality of life natural beauty sustainable development human health etc...

Their response is at least health care air filters masks movies indoor shipping centers hookers are cheap cheap cheap....

They are a prisoner of their own net worth...

CB

Let me see, I have a 2 million baht house. A paid off pick up, A paid up 1.5 million Baht motorcycle. You might be right. I am too cheap to move. But I definitely do not consider myself a prisoner.

I reckon the ones that sit behind their computers complaining are the prisoners.

Kinda like the term, Pome was originally a term given by the Brits to Aussies but as it turns out the Brits are the Pomes.

I think a lot of the farangs who don't move and then state air pollution is tolerable probably are driven mainly by their cost of living as the over-riding priority in their life vs other factors like clean air quality of life natural beauty sustainable development human health etc...

Their response is at least health care air filters masks movies indoor shipping centers hookers are cheap cheap cheap....

They are a prisoner of their own net worth...

CB

I doubt that is rite. I know for myself I can afford to live in America. Cost is defiantly higher there.

As cost of living go here in Thailand Chiang Mai is not cheap. There are lot's of other places in Thailand cheaper to live in and less smog.

As I said in an earlier post just take a look at immigration the number of people applying for the yearly extensions is growing and has been for quite a while.

Have you ever been to Thailand?

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Petitions can be effective in open, democratic societies where citizen action is a normal and respected part of public decision making. Unfortunately, Thailand has a very weak record in appreciating and supporting such voices. By last count, I believe that about 22 Thai environmentalists have been assassinated since 2000. People aren't dumb; they are aware of the risks of speaking up too loudly. No one is going to get shot for signing a petition, but once it comes down to local monitoring and enforcement, things get ugly. The other problem of course is that this pollution crisis has been decades in the making. Bad policies have made the poor poorer, and these are the folk who can only rely on the natural environment to survive. Meanwhile, those with means have grabbed land, cut forests, diverted water, pursued very unsustainable agriculture, and pushed terrible urban sprawl and consumerism with impunity. If these problems could be solved with a stroke of the pen by someone "in power," they wouldn't be so dire today.

You pretty well hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately in societies where petitions have any affect it is generally after they have collected a large amount of registered voters. Many never get the required quota. Many are then put up to be voted on in the next election. Some pass some don't. It is not that meaningful in the over all view of things happening.

For sure it is not a petition by non citizens.

In a case like this it is a problem that the Prime Minister is well aware of and I could be wrong but if he could just say fix it, it would happen. He would say fix it.

If we as guests were really concerned we would do best to approach the local government and ask if we could help. Not sure how that would work but better than asking the PM. I doubt the petition would get very far out of the mail room much less on his desk.

On the burning of the forests, That method has been used worldwide for centuries to control underbrush to prevent larger forest fires with additional benefits.

Yes, and lead was used for water pipes until they determined that it was a serious public health issue.

Slash and burn was a supportable measure when there were small groups of people just emerging from the hunter - gatherer stage and being forced to seek other sources of food. Many place names in Europe witness this. Move on, burn (probably where this had been done 10 years or so before), get the land ready for cultivation and pasturage and get the whole tribe settled in there. In Europe this was a three to four year cycle

This in turn becomes insupportable when larger populations become settled but still use the old methods - and try to use it everywhere within reach. The forests really don't need this kind of agriculture, I have seen entire mountain sides that have been burnt out and maize planted, easily visible from the road. We aren't talking about burning off of sugar cane, this is destruction and disruption of eco-systems that have taken many thousands of years to establish.

I suffer from asthma also but the thought of what is causing it is even more distressing.

On the burning of the forests, That method has been used worldwide for centuries to control underbrush to prevent larger forest fires with additional benefits.

Yes, and lead was used for water pipes until they determined that it was a serious public health issue.

Slash and burn was a supportable measure when there were small groups of people just emerging from the hunter - gatherer stage and being forced to seek other sources of food. Many place names in Europe witness this. Move on, burn (probably where this had been done 10 years or so before), get the land ready for cultivation and pasturage and get the whole tribe settled in there. In Europe this was a three to four year cycle

This in turn becomes insupportable when larger populations become settled but still use the old methods - and try to use it everywhere within reach. The forests really don't need this kind of agriculture, I have seen entire mountain sides that have been burnt out and maize planted, easily visible from the road. We aren't talking about burning off of sugar cane, this is destruction and disruption of eco-systems that have taken many thousands of years to establish.

I suffer from asthma also but the thought of what is causing it is even more distressing.

I was wondering about the past. How bad was it 50 or 100 years ago?

Clean air clean water clean soil are fundamental rights in the USA...assuming the same in Europe...

I can't fault people raised in those societies to criticize a violation of a basic human principle...

I will criticize people who accept and defend the detrimental situation as this is their culture they know better than outsiders blah blah blah

Assessing this recurring situation, i deemed it as a hopeless situation considering the present decision-makers at hand. I moved away at the beginning of the year to a environment and culture who have similar values standards and principles. Now I am working on getting my family out...

At best, Chiang Mai has sadly become a part-time place to live..kudos to those people who understand that and set up residencies in two or more places...

For those who have less economic means, it boils down to cost vs principles/self respect/quality of life...and that causes internal conflict and dissention...