Grounding new washer

[williet98248]

Bought a new washing machine. The instructions say I have to plug it into a grounded outlet. No grounded outlets anywhere near the machine. I bought an adapter and plugged it into an ungrounded outlet but I grounded the metal case of the washer direct to a ground stake. It worked for a week and then the machine wouldn't power up. Rats! The guy came out and said I have to plug it into a grounded outlet and therefore I have to install a dedicated grounded circuit. The question is: Can I install a three wire plug wired to an ungrounded two wire circuit and wire the the ground screw in the plug directly to the ground stake? Or must I go to the expense and trouble of punching through masonry walls to get a grounded three wire dedicated circuit installed in my laundry room?

[Crossy]

Yes, adding a local stake and 3 pin outlet is fine, you then have a grounded outlet.

If you don't already have a Safe-T-Cut or RCBO in your distribution board, I would add them, relatively low cost, massive increase in safety, particularly if you have an electric water heater.

[bankruatsteve]

Hmmm - haven't heard of something not powering up for lack of ground before. But yeah, your plan should provide effective ground. Not sure that will take care of the problem though.

[lopburi3]

This is 3rd try to post - moving this has caused issues of not having permission to post even though it said I was in electric forum having started in general could not post.

Appears your adapter failed - suspect replacement would solve your issue.

[RichCor]

As lopburi3 stated, maybe your 'adapter' has failed. They're not always rated to handle larger amperage equipment.

Even if you left the 'ground' floating, it should not have any impact on the functioning of the device. The 'earth-ground' only comes into play during a fault condition (...unless you are running equipment that produces static or other electrical build-up or imbalance that needs to be bled-off or otherwise neutralized via 'ground' for the continued safe operation of the device).

I'd also recommend you make sure that the device plug is correctly oriented so Live and Neutral are properly transferred to the machine on the correct plug pins. This is important if the washer electronics only 'switch' one side of the L/N electrical circuit to run the device. A L/N reversal could potentially keep the device in an always potentially 'live' state, and any fault condition could allow the case to become Live/Load/Hot.

Better made machines will 'switch' both the L and N connections.

It's possible your distribution board (circuit breaker box) doesn't even contain a ground.

When you say, "I grounded the metal case of the washer direct to a ground stake", can you describe this a bit... length of copper stake, type and dampness of soil, distance from washer, size of wire utilized, how the wire is attached at both the washer and the ground stake?

[williet98248]

As lopburi3 stated, maybe your 'adapter' has failed. They're not always rated to handle larger amperage equipment.

Even if you left the 'ground' floating, it should not have any impact on the functioning of the device. The 'earth-ground' only comes into play during a fault condition (...unless you are running equipment that produces static or other electrical build-up or imbalance that needs to be bled-off or otherwise neutralized via 'ground' for the continued safe operation of the device).

I'd also recommend you make sure that the device plug is correctly oriented so Live and Neutral are properly transferred to the machine on the correct plug pins. This is important if the washer electronics only 'switch' one side of the L/N electrical circuit to run the device. A L/N reversal could potentially keep the device in an always potentially 'live' state, and any fault condition could allow the case to become Live/Load/Hot.

Better made machines will 'switch' both the L and N connections.

It's possible your distribution board (circuit breaker box) doesn't even contain a ground.

When you say, "I grounded the metal case of the washer direct to a ground stake", can you describe this a bit... length of copper stake, type and dampness of soil, distance from washer, size of wire utilized, how the wire is attached at both the washer and the ground stake?

All good advice, thanks very much. Don't know the length of the ground stake, always been there. Soil is a reddish clay type, seems damp. Wire is a green ground wire screwed to the stake and screwed to the metal case of the washer, about two meters to the stake. I will clean the contact to the stake and wire the ground wire into the grounded outlet, make sure the polarity is correct and see what happens. I believe you are correct in that the washer uses only one side of the switch to run the device. Although it did run for a week before switching itself off. The tech checked the device and said it is OK, just a problem with the ground (and the polarity?) I think you are right in that an inspection of my breaker box doesn't show a ground. it is equipped with a safety cut, which kicks off several times a week for no apparent reason. Individual breakers never kick, only the safety cut. Very irritating. Thanks again for the good advice.

[Crossy]

... it is equipped with a safety cut, which kicks off several times a week for no apparent reason. ... Very irritating.

Not nearly as irritating as being dead

If your Safe-T-Cut is tripping you need to investigate why.

Could be damp in an outlet or a faulty appliance.

[lopburi3]

Had one intermittent tripping because of electricians splice inside an outlet not being well protected with electric tape - if you have variable setting on Safe-t-cut and using 5 now moving to next higher (up to 30) might eliminate tripping and still provide protection - but as said do not turn it off or go direct.

[Pib]

A ground is not needed to make a washer work....in fact it worked for a week proving no ground is needed before it stopped working for some reason.

I'm assuming the adapter is a simple three to two prong adapter (i.e., Live, Neutral, Gnd to Live, Neutral. How can the tech say it working if he couldn't get it to work? Was he a authorized repair tech for the washer or just any old tech off the soi? Did he check the voltage at the outlet being used? If so, what was the voltage value? Are you sure power is still coming to the outlet? Tried plugging it into another outlet?

There may just be a blown fuse in the washer. Just within the last year my washer blew a fuse but it was not the type that was in a fuse holder which was easily accessible and could be changed in a few seconds but in was an inline fuse which was physically part of the wire feeding the motor. It was a special type of fuse which comes with two short pigtail wires soldered to it...you cut out the old fuse and insert the new one by twisting/soldering the pigtails to the motor line. It was kinda like the image below.

[williet98248]

... it is equipped with a safety cut, which kicks off several times a week for no apparent reason. ... Very irritating.

Not nearly as irritating as being dead

If your Safe-T-Cut is tripping you need to investigate why.

Could be damp in an outlet or a faulty appliance.

Hard to irritate a dead person but I get your point. This is a completely new breaker box and safety cut. Put in about a year ago. It never blows the individual breakers. Only the SC and several times a week. I don't think the guy did a good job as he was drunk half the time. Sometimes the SC will blow at a lightning bolt, but the houses next door have power. Recently my living room AC is blowing the safety cut, sometimes immediately or within a few minutes of turning it on, other times the AC will run for a couple of hours and then blow the SC. Had the AC checked and nothing appears faulty. Anybody know a real electrician who actually knows what they are doing?

[Crossy]

What sensitivity (mA) is the Safe-T-Cut set at?

Is the tripping associated with rain?

Random trips can be caused by a neutral-earth fault somewhere, but you'll need a sparks with an insulation tester (and the nouse to use it).

Can you post photos of your distribution box with the lid off please, it's possible your sparks didn't remove the N-E link.

[williet98248]

All great advice and appreciated. I bought a new ground stake as the old one was copper coated steel and only 16 inches long. Will install a three way outlet grounded to the copper stake with its own breaker. If that doesn't get it running I will check the motor fuse. If none of this works I will wash my clothes on a flat rock in my bathtub. Will let you all know how it works out. Thank again.

[Crossy]

Once you have a nice grounded outlet working, call the tech again when the washer fails to operate

[williet98248]

What sensitivity (mA) is the Safe-T-Cut set at?

Is the tripping associated with rain?

Random trips can be caused by a neutral-earth fault somewhere, but you'll need a sparks with an insulation tester (and the nouse to use it).

Can you post photos of your distribution box with the lid off please, it's possible your sparks didn't remove the N-E link.

SC set at Max.
yes rain sometimes trips.
Here are the photos I think. Can't tell if they will be added to the post or not.

[lopburi3]

As photo is unreadable ask what the Safe-T-Cut number is at that "max" setting? If it is 5 most homes here will have issues not having trips - especially if air conditioning is on the circuit. It is normal to have close lightning cause trips and the whole purpose of the Safe-t-cut is to trip before normal breakers would do so. Believe most units have a working range from 5 or 10 to 30ma.

[Crossy]

Looks like Safe-T-Cut is set at 30mA.

Can't see anything untoward in the distribution box.

Not much grounding going on

[RichCor]

Can't see anything untoward in the distribution box.

Not much grounding going on

I'm wondering if the ground-buss is attached to actual earth-ground stake.

[GavinK]

Can't see anything untoward in the distribution box.

Not much grounding going on

I'm wondering if the ground-buss is attached to actual earth-ground stake.

My thought too...those green wires all look like 1.5's. Find your earthing rod and see what size wire connects to it...if any...

[williet98248]

Can't see anything untoward in the distribution box.

Not much grounding going on

I'm wondering if the ground-buss is attached to actual earth-ground stake.

My thought too...those green wires all look like 1.5's. Find your earthing rod and see what size wire connects to it...if any...

Good thinking. I will look around but I have been here three years and the only earthing rod I have ever seen is the one that I am discussing. That one is certainly not connected into the box. I didn't have a problem with the electrics until about a year ago when the upstairs bathtub leaked through the floor and flooded out the old box along with depositing the kitchen ceiling on the kitchen floor. Since the new box installed always having problems.

[bankruatsteve]

Did you inspect and/or replace the wiring/fixtures that got wet?

[williet98248]

Again, thanks for all the good advice. I pulled the old ground stake to find that it was barely 30 cm long. Drove a new one meter plus stake, soldered the ground wire to it. Installed a small breaker box and a three prong plug and attached the ground wire directly to the plug. Plugged the machine in and it powered right up. Yahoo! When I bought the new ground stake I asked the sales guy (Homemart) if it was solid copper. He assured me it was but at 149 baht not expensive enough and I was skeptical. Sure enough it turned out to be copper coated steel. Oh well. I can't find a ground stake for the electric breaker box. Will look at grounding the box to the laundry ground stake. There are no grounded receptacles in the entire house circuit except for the laundry plug.

[Pib]

Sorry, I can't understand why you would need a safety ground for the washer to work as the safety ground provides none of the electrical path to power the washer. Only the live and neutral wires provide the electrical path to power the washer. The safety ground is to help prevent electrical shock in case an electrical fault occurs such as the live portion of the circuit reaching the case of the washer.

It would almost seem you have a wiring problem....maybe your safety ground is acting as the neutral wire for the washer outlet which is definitely not a good thing.

Now I guess the washer could have some circuit it in to confirm it has a live, neutral, and safety ground connection and not turn on if that check fails, but I don't know of any such models. In considering Thailand as a whole many, many homes (maybe the majority) still have two wire outlets with no safety ground. If LG washer only worked with three wire outlets they would no be selling many washing machines in Thailand.

Yea, just something about your situation "wiring-wise" still don't seem right.

[RichCor]

I'm also with PIB on his stated opinion.

In addition, while I'm glad you've got your appliance back in service, the positioning of your 'Water' and 'Electrical' and your appliance is worrying.

Potential live electrical points (like a service outlet) should be placed high above any location where liquid substances can 'fall', 'spray' or otherwise come in contact. Hopefully your Safe-T-Cut would trigger before anything bad or lethal occurred, but you shouldn't rely on it to save your life.

I'd suggest placing both the 'active' electrical service plug higher than the position of the water valve and placing the double-pole breaker even further 'away' so anyone ever actuating it would never be standing in water if there were a leak.

Also suggest deactivating the 'other' in-wall circuit, either by disconnecting the wiring at the far end of its connection or removing its plug-point, taping the wires, and replacing the face cover with a solid blank.