Pheu Thai's white paper on rice scam sceptical

[webfact]

Pheu Thai's white paper on rice scam sceptical



BANGKOK: -- Former Phitsanulok MP of the Democrat Party Dr Warong Dechgitvigrom today questioned the white paper issued by the Pheu Thai Party just one day before the beginning of the rice pledging scheme trial today, suspecting it might aim to put all the blame on its former commerce minister.

The issuance of the white paper on the Yingluck government’s rice pledging scheme came as the Supreme Court’s Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions today began the first hearing of the case which former premier Ms Yingluck Shinawatra is facing charge of dereliction of duties over her handling of the rice pledging scheme that inflicted over 500 billion baht damages to the state.

Dr Warong, the “whistle-blower” who exposed the suspected massive corruption in the rice pledging scheme, including the fake G-to-G deals with China, said most of the contents in the paper tried to explain the benefits of the scheme same as it had made in the past.

But what was ridiculous was that the paper mentioned only about corruption, focusing merely on corruption in bag rice scheme, missing rice stocks, rotten rice and decaying rice, he said.

On corruption related to bag rice scheme, the paper stated merely the suspension of the scheme after corruption surfaced, he said.

But he noted that the people have to know what the paper was up to.

He said the Yingluck government approved the launching of a 2.5 million ton bag rice scheme with claim to sell to low income earners and the poor.

He said one million ton of rice had been packed in bags but most of them did not reach the poor, and corruption was detected.

A company which was alleged to have involvement was later found to have close connection with a secretary of the former commerce minister. The former secretary is still on the run, Dr Warong said.

This led to the suspension of the bag rice scheme, he said and elaborated that the scheme was suspended after corruption surfaced, he said.

He also questioned the paper for repeatedly saying the state was not damaged for the missing rice and rotten rice in the stocks, claiming it was the responsibility of warehouse operators which offered the pledging service.

He wondered how could the party come out with such thought that the state was not damaged when over 5.9 million tons of rice went missing, went rotten and went decayed.

He said Ms Yingluck had been warned by many parties of the coverup of rotten rice, but she didn’t take it serious.

This affirmed the dereliction of duties of Ms Yingluck which should not let these things to happen, he said.

He went on saying what was really strange was that the paper didn’t touch on the G2G rice deals, not even a sentence about the deal was mentioned in the paper.

This was tantamount to pass on the G2G deal to the former commerce minister to shoulder alone, Dr Warong added.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/pheu-thais-white-paper-on-rice-scam-sceptical


-- Thai PBS 2016-01-15

[seajae]

did anyone really expect the ptp to state that they were always aware that the rice scam was set up as a vote winner and that they know it was going to be plagued with corruption but as long as it got them into office they didnt care. Come on, these people are that corrupt they couldnt lie straight in bed, they will never admit the truth because it would make sure they are never allowed into govt again. They are simply trying to save their <deleted> and follow their boss's directions, after all hew is the one that tells what they can and cant say/do, especially when his sister, the puppet,is in for a sh*tload of trouble

[Baerboxer]

Did he expect anything much else? Really?

Smoke and mirrors, deceit, waffle, misdirection, and outright lies and denial. PTP standard stock in trade.

Wonder if the White Paper contained the scheme accounts?

[rubl]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

[rubl]

Did he expect anything much else? Really?

Smoke and mirrors, deceit, waffle, misdirection, and outright lies and denial. PTP standard stock in trade.

Wonder if the White Paper contained the scheme accounts?

Ms. Yingluck will probably draw those accounts out of her hat during a session with the Supreme Court, rabbit like. 'voila, here my proof of innocence' like

[soalbundy]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

I keep wondering where the promised payment for our 2013 harvest went, the wife say's we have to be patient,oh OK dear.

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

I just Googled skeptical and a picture of Phue Thai showed up hehehe

[phoenixdoglover]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

[bangrak]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

[bangrak]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

I keep wondering where the promised payment for our 2013 harvest went, the wife say's we have to be patient,oh OK dear.

The payment for your 2013 harvest sadly was to be part of the, outside State budget and official scrutiny, very hazy 'infrastructure loan' of 2,000,000,000,000.- Baht the PTP 'government' attempted to ram through, but luckily failed in...

Quite unlucky for your family and hundreds of thousands of others, but did the PTP care, pfff, as if they do today! When the 1,000 Baht notes come out again in the next general election, your Thai family will still vote for PTP, or Thaksin's party of the day, as if nothing had happened... No education, no democracy...

[thelonius]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

I'm still looking for the info backing your claim they had lost 600 - 700 Billion baht

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/846684-supa-piyajitti-claims-loss-from-rice-scheme-exceeds-600-billion-baht/page-6#entry9721204

[scorecard]

I just Googled skeptical and a picture of Phue Thai showed up hehehe

Tricky, untrustworthy, sly, unethical, immoral, untruthful...

[than]

I think the PTP politician should leave politics and start new career in comedy

[phoenixdoglover]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

[halloween]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

I'm still looking for the info backing your claim they had lost 600 - 700 Billion baht

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/846684-supa-piyajitti-claims-loss-from-rice-scheme-exceeds-600-billion-baht/page-6#entry9721204

While everybody else is looking at Yingluk to prove that she didn't.

[EnglishJohn]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

I'm still looking for the info backing your claim they had lost 600 - 700 Billion baht

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/846684-supa-piyajitti-claims-loss-from-rice-scheme-exceeds-600-billion-baht/page-6#entry9721204

So your point is what ?. His claim of 600-700 billion is wrong because it was only 500 billion ?.

Good God man - grow yourself a conscience.

[Baerboxer]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

Up to you, but as the self appointed Chair of the rice scheme, the PM of the day, who said she and only she made decisions and appointed her handpicked cabinet ministers, it's hard to absolve YL of any blame. Especially as she was warned by prestigious international bodies as well as internal officials but chose to state publicly that there was no corruption or problems with the scheme.

I think her also claiming to have negotiated some G2G deals, which when pressed for details, one of her ministers, maybe her cousin or Mr. White Lies, said nothing could be revealed as the buyers wanted total secrecy.

I doubt YL is as dumb as some posters like to think, nor as naive. She played her part in the family pantomime and did as instructed for which her share of the family vast fortune is do recompenses. Of course details of those assets that big brother bragged grew 450% during PTP regime in power are also not for public consumption.

Whatever else happens during a Shin government, you can guarantee the Shin family fortune grows staggeringly.

[jaywalker]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

Why is it that people who criticize either the reds or yellow get flamed?

I think that they are all crooks.

Without skepticism you are just buying the party line, which is what the normally good folks of Germany did when the Nazi's came to power.

Hindsight tells us that was a bad idea.

Then again, most people do not want to be people. They'd rather be sheeple.

Anybody that believes in any government to solve any problem is wacko.

No government on the face of the planet exists to 'Protect and Serve' the public, rather perversely, governments exist to 'protect and serve' their hold on power.

[slapout]

Try the entire group and those associated under /with them under military court procedure. Get something done,

dont wait for the guilty to die, abscound, move ill gotten gains, etc

[scorecard]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

Nice try to make YS look clean, you failed.

You say it's your assumption that it was a scam perpetrated by the commerce minister...

Let's look at that:

- You wrote saying that it's 'your assumption' which does not mean it's fact, unless of course you have some specific facts / details to support your 'assumption'. Please share.

- If in fact the commerce minister did concoct the idea to develop a scam using G2G deals as the core of the scam then how come this was not detected through some form of oversight checking, analysis, etc. In a wider sense surely the commerce ministers scam (your assumption) would be very difficult to hide and would become known to many many folks in senior public service positions and wider very quickly, many serious documents would have needed to cross many senior desks, and gossip travels fast.

(Here I'll throw in a side comment. In the pt government hayday a personal friend of mine who occupied a very senior position in the finance ministry was 'told' by one of the totally unqualified and totally inexperienced pt 'jobs for the boys' appointees to sign a batch of documents. My friend refused and was told more strongly to sign. He put down his pen, quickly gathered his personal things and fled the building and later the same day sent in his resignation by e-mail effective from a specific time earlier the same day. He mentioned to friends that he had been instructed to sign documents which broke numerous laws &regulations and if the shxx hit the fan later there was a good chance he would do jail.)

I suggest we would all expect that such sales (G2G sales) surely needed some form of 'sign-off' from the top of the tree. Countries don't execute big deals G2G like this without sign-off from several very high level players. Just two possible examples: the interior ministry, and very senior officials who have responsibility to comment in terms of the wider political implications that the proposed deal supported or didn't support such deals to be the best interests of Thailand (same comment for any country).

I'll say it again, I don't / cannot accept that the commerce minister concocted this scam and nobody noticed it, nobody spoke up to YL.

- All of the above still highlights the very serious responsibility of the PM to ensure ministers are not working outside of their scope and authority and are not involved in developing, implementing major & massive scams or corruption.

All comes right back to criminal dereliction of duty.

Edited January 17, 2016 by scorecard

[candide]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

Nice try to make YS look clean, you failed.

You say it's your assumption that it was a scam perpetrated by the commerce minister...

Let's look at that:

- You wrote saying that it's 'your assumption' which does not mean it's fact, unless of course you have some specific facts / details to support your 'assumption'. Please share.

- If in fact the commerce minister did concoct the idea to develop a scam using G2G deals as the core of the scam then how come this was not detected through some form of oversight checking, analysis, etc. In a wider sense surely the commerce ministers scam (your assumption) would be very difficult to hide and would become known to many many folks in senior public service positions and wider very quickly, many serious documents would have needed to cross many senior desks, and gossip travels fast.

I suggest we would all expect that such sales (G2G sales) surely needed some form of 'sign-off' from the top of the tree. Countries don't execute big deals G2G like this without sign-off from several very high level players. Just two possible examples: the interior ministry, and very senior officials who have responsibility to comment in terms of the wider political implications supported / didn't support such trading in the best interests of Thailand from a political standpoint (same comment for any country).

I'll say it again, I don't / cannot accept that the commerce minister concocted this scam and nobody noticed it, nobody spoke up to YL.

- All of the above still highlights the very serious responsibility of the PM to ensure ministers are not working outside of their scope and authority and are not involved in developing, implementing major & massive scams or corruption.

All comes right back to criminal dereliction of duty.

Do you have any proof or testimonial to show about your claim on the role of the commerce minister? Unless I have missed an important press article on it, the only thing I have read is a short description of the scam (rice re-sold in Thailand). I haven't read anything about a proof or testimony that, when he signed the contract, he knew in advance the rice would be re-sold in Thailand.
It may be possible that he knew, I don't know. But without any proof he cannot be convicted (well, in theory).

[scorecard]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

Nice try to make YS look clean, you failed.

You say it's your assumption that it was a scam perpetrated by the commerce minister...

Let's look at that:

- You wrote saying that it's 'your assumption' which does not mean it's fact, unless of course you have some specific facts / details to support your 'assumption'. Please share.

- If in fact the commerce minister did concoct the idea to develop a scam using G2G deals as the core of the scam then how come this was not detected through some form of oversight checking, analysis, etc. In a wider sense surely the commerce ministers scam (your assumption) would be very difficult to hide and would become known to many many folks in senior public service positions and wider very quickly, many serious documents would have needed to cross many senior desks, and gossip travels fast.

I suggest we would all expect that such sales (G2G sales) surely needed some form of 'sign-off' from the top of the tree. Countries don't execute big deals G2G like this without sign-off from several very high level players. Just two possible examples: the interior ministry, and very senior officials who have responsibility to comment in terms of the wider political implications supported / didn't support such trading in the best interests of Thailand from a political standpoint (same comment for any country).

I'll say it again, I don't / cannot accept that the commerce minister concocted this scam and nobody noticed it, nobody spoke up to YL.

- All of the above still highlights the very serious responsibility of the PM to ensure ministers are not working outside of their scope and authority and are not involved in developing, implementing major & massive scams or corruption.

All comes right back to criminal dereliction of duty.

Do you have any proof or testimonial to show about your claim on the role of the commerce minister? Unless I have missed an important press article on it, the only thing I have read is a short description of the scam (rice re-sold in Thailand). I haven't read anything about a proof or testimony that, when he signed the contract, he knew in advance the rice would be re-sold in Thailand.

It may be possible that he knew, I don't know. But without any proof he cannot be convicted (well, in theory).

I didn't make this suggestion about the commerce minister, phoenixdoglover did.

[candide]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

Nice try to make YS look clean, you failed.

You say it's your assumption that it was a scam perpetrated by the commerce minister...

Let's look at that:

- You wrote saying that it's 'your assumption' which does not mean it's fact, unless of course you have some specific facts / details to support your 'assumption'. Please share.

- If in fact the commerce minister did concoct the idea to develop a scam using G2G deals as the core of the scam then how come this was not detected through some form of oversight checking, analysis, etc. In a wider sense surely the commerce ministers scam (your assumption) would be very difficult to hide and would become known to many many folks in senior public service positions and wider very quickly, many serious documents would have needed to cross many senior desks, and gossip travels fast.

I suggest we would all expect that such sales (G2G sales) surely needed some form of 'sign-off' from the top of the tree. Countries don't execute big deals G2G like this without sign-off from several very high level players. Just two possible examples: the interior ministry, and very senior officials who have responsibility to comment in terms of the wider political implications supported / didn't support such trading in the best interests of Thailand from a political standpoint (same comment for any country).

I'll say it again, I don't / cannot accept that the commerce minister concocted this scam and nobody noticed it, nobody spoke up to YL.

- All of the above still highlights the very serious responsibility of the PM to ensure ministers are not working outside of their scope and authority and are not involved in developing, implementing major & massive scams or corruption.

All comes right back to criminal dereliction of duty.

Do you have any proof or testimonial to show about your claim on the role of the commerce minister? Unless I have missed an important press article on it, the only thing I have read is a short description of the scam (rice re-sold in Thailand). I haven't read anything about a proof or testimony that, when he signed the contract, he knew in advance the rice would be re-sold in Thailand.
It may be possible that he knew, I don't know. But without any proof he cannot be convicted (well, in theory).

I didn't make this suggestion about the commerce minister, phoenixdoglover did.

Sorry about my misunderstanding. I understood that your claim was that YL was involved in the scam and not only the commerce minister, and not that the commerce minister was not involved in the scam.

[rubl]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

I'm still looking for the info backing your claim they had lost 600 - 700 Billion baht

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/846684-supa-piyajitti-claims-loss-from-rice-scheme-exceeds-600-billion-baht/page-6#entry9721204

All guestimates, my dear thelonius. Unfortunately the Yingluck government was only good at paying out, but not at administrating.

Two months ago PHeu Thai in another paper stated to have paid out 870 billion Baht to 1.4 million rice farmer families participating in the RPPS (out of 3.7m). THe current government also had to pay less than 200 billion Baht in addition to honor the previous governments (legal) commitments.

The Yingluck government started with fixing the pledge price near double the market price of rice for paddy at that time and kept it fixed.

Amounts of what had been returned to BAAC never amounted to more than a few hundred billion, at least according the figures we got from the Yingluck government. In late 2014 BAAC was still waiting for more than 800 billion Baht from the government.

Etc., etc.

So, whether 500, 600, 700 or 800++ billion Baht, Ms. Yingluck as being in charge and only she being in charge has some explaining to do. THat's what this case of 'negligence' is about. A 'self-financing' scam defended for a long time and now some try to position 'responsibility' and 'accountability' as 'democracy has died'.

Edited January 17, 2016 by rubl

[rubl]

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

Of course Ms. Yingluck may have been ignorant. After all she only stated in parliament to be in charge. Furthermore the G2G debacle was prominently in the newspapers and in parliament, so how could she have known about it.

Still, all this seems to strengthen the case of 'negligence' against Ms. Yingluck.

[scorecard]

Is the statement from Pheu THai available online (and preferably in English) ?

I'm still looking for more info on their October/November statement to have aimed for 3.7 million rice farming households representing 23% of the Thai population, having 1.4 million households participate and having paid out directly to those 870 billion Baht, all the while managing to lose 500++ billion Baht.

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

Nice try to make YS look clean, you failed.

You say it's your assumption that it was a scam perpetrated by the commerce minister...

Let's look at that:

- You wrote saying that it's 'your assumption' which does not mean it's fact, unless of course you have some specific facts / details to support your 'assumption'. Please share.

- If in fact the commerce minister did concoct the idea to develop a scam using G2G deals as the core of the scam then how come this was not detected through some form of oversight checking, analysis, etc. In a wider sense surely the commerce ministers scam (your assumption) would be very difficult to hide and would become known to many many folks in senior public service positions and wider very quickly, many serious documents would have needed to cross many senior desks, and gossip travels fast.

I suggest we would all expect that such sales (G2G sales) surely needed some form of 'sign-off' from the top of the tree. Countries don't execute big deals G2G like this without sign-off from several very high level players. Just two possible examples: the interior ministry, and very senior officials who have responsibility to comment in terms of the wider political implications supported / didn't support such trading in the best interests of Thailand from a political standpoint (same comment for any country).

I'll say it again, I don't / cannot accept that the commerce minister concocted this scam and nobody noticed it, nobody spoke up to YL.

- All of the above still highlights the very serious responsibility of the PM to ensure ministers are not working outside of their scope and authority and are not involved in developing, implementing major & massive scams or corruption.

All comes right back to criminal dereliction of duty.

Do you have any proof or testimonial to show about your claim on the role of the commerce minister? Unless I have missed an important press article on it, the only thing I have read is a short description of the scam (rice re-sold in Thailand). I haven't read anything about a proof or testimony that, when he signed the contract, he knew in advance the rice would be re-sold in Thailand.

It may be possible that he knew, I don't know. But without any proof he cannot be convicted (well, in theory).

I didn't make this suggestion about the commerce minister, phoenixdoglover did.

Sorry about my misunderstanding. I understood that your claim was that YL was involved in the scam and not only the commerce minister, and not that the commerce minister was not involved in the scam.

Well let's put your last comment into perspective:

- I didn't claim she was involved in the scam.

- Suddenly there's a claim (an assumption was what the poster wrote) that it was a scam concocted personally by the commerce minister.

IMHO this is just another silly attempt to say that YL didn't know about the G2G deal / she wasn't involved etc.

In other words just try again to throw in a red herring to try to pull attention away from YS.

- Readers here ain't that stupid.

[rubl]

It's interesting to see that after Pheu Thai may have dropped the former Commerce Minister, a number of posters here come to help him.

The MoC may have been duped by those he signed the 'G2G' contracts with. Possible although with all relations made known afterwards somewhat unlikely.

"In response to this, Commerce Minister Boonsong Teriyapirom insisted, very strongly, that the government did indeed sell rice as part of a G2G contract. All rice exports are verified by the Department of Trade Negotiations, while the buyers are verified by the embassy, he said, adding that those involved in the deal are government agencies, not a Chinese company as alleged by the opposition."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/600926-rice-deals-with-china-fake-thai-democrats/

[phoenixdoglover]

Skepticism is good.

I would be skeptical of both the 870 number from PTP and the 500 number being tossed around in the YL case. Both seem to be lacking an accounting.

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

Of course Ms. Yingluck may have been ignorant. After all she only stated in parliament to be in charge. Furthermore the G2G debacle was prominently in the newspapers and in parliament, so how could she have known about it.

Still, all this seems to strengthen the case of 'negligence' against Ms. Yingluck.

I'm happy to agree on the charge of negligence. On the face of it, the YL administration was lax in oversight.

However, as to the charge of complicity in the G2G scam, I have seen no news articles which stated she knew about it beforehand or agreed to it, or anything like that. I'm open to evidence. I assume the NACC is also, but they have not recommended a criminal charge against YL specifically in the G2G case. They must have their reasons for that.

[rubl]

Is hypocrisy good too? Why was all of the accounting (when there was ever any serious one) about the rice scam kept away from public scrutiny, as if it was a State secret, by the PTP 'government' (the price rice was sold in, eventually totally fake, 'G-2-G' 'deals', only a small example)? Let's ask the person who was at the helm of the operation, Ms Yingluck, or shoudn't she know that either?

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

Of course Ms. Yingluck may have been ignorant. After all she only stated in parliament to be in charge. Furthermore the G2G debacle was prominently in the newspapers and in parliament, so how could she have known about it.

Still, all this seems to strengthen the case of 'negligence' against Ms. Yingluck.

I'm happy to agree on the charge of negligence. On the face of it, the YL administration was lax in oversight.

However, as to the charge of complicity in the G2G scam, I have seen no news articles which stated she knew about it beforehand or agreed to it, or anything like that. I'm open to evidence. I assume the NACC is also, but they have not recommended a criminal charge against YL specifically in the G2G case. They must have their reasons for that.

Well, it would seem the G2G deals were discussed in cabinet, Ms. Yingluck stated in parliament to be in charge and so it would seem Ms. Yingluck could be held just as guilty.

Now with all the conflicting data we've been given over the last years and Ms. Yingluck being better at smiling nicely and looking pretty than homework like accounting, I can only hope her legal team has some more consistent figures and data. It would really help her case.

[candide]

This is Thailand. Detailed accounting on so many matters is not released because the details revealed would be bad news for somebody in power. This cuts across most institutions, present and past. The word "transparency" is used; but in practice the transparency is superficial.

My assumption regarding the fake G2G sale is that it was a scam perpetrated by the Commerce Minister and various underlings and business cronies. These are the people who have been implicated and indicted. If the Commerce Minister was running a scam, why would he share that with YL?

I'm happy to change my view if there are more revelations to be had.

Of course Ms. Yingluck may have been ignorant. After all she only stated in parliament to be in charge. Furthermore the G2G debacle was prominently in the newspapers and in parliament, so how could she have known about it.

Still, all this seems to strengthen the case of 'negligence' against Ms. Yingluck.

I'm happy to agree on the charge of negligence. On the face of it, the YL administration was lax in oversight.

However, as to the charge of complicity in the G2G scam, I have seen no news articles which stated she knew about it beforehand or agreed to it, or anything like that. I'm open to evidence. I assume the NACC is also, but they have not recommended a criminal charge against YL specifically in the G2G case. They must have their reasons for that.

Well, it would seem the G2G deals were discussed in cabinet, Ms. Yingluck stated in parliament to be in charge and so it would seem Ms. Yingluck could be held just as guilty.

Now with all the conflicting data we've been given over the last years and Ms. Yingluck being better at smiling nicely and looking pretty than homework like accounting, I can only hope her legal team has some more consistent figures and data. It would really help her case.

Agreeing to a deal which ends up as a scam (here: rice re-sold in Thailand instead of being exported to China), doesn't necessarily mean the scam was known at the time of the deal agreement. It also doesn't mean the higher authorities involved (i.e. YL, the minister) have to check themselves the logistical details after the deal is implemented

In normal administrative systems (I mean in other countries, for example), there is a procedure for checking that the items have been effectively exported, i.e. collect and check export slips, consignment note, etc... If it doesn't fit with the deal requirement, the information is then transmitted up the hierarchical chain

- is such practice a usual one in Thailand (i.e.applied for similar deals before)?

- if these checks are part of the usual procedure and have been skipped, at which level did the decision to skip occur and who was informed of it?

- if the checks occured and were kept secret, at which level did the decision occur and who was informed of it?