THE England thread

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, alfieconn said:

Have a watch of the 1st half again and count how many times Henderson just punted the ball up the pitch to no one, you sure you was watching the same game as everyone else ?

Have to agree with you, as Henderson was about as effective as a one-armed paperhanger, and he didn't anchor or run the midfield at all...…...something England lack and have done for an age.

 

They didn't play through the midfield so balls to feet were at a premium, and perhaps that was a plan, but why change from the last game when it stood them in such good stead.

 

As for Rashford, well just a couple of balls to feet in difficult positions were his lot so not what he likes...……….and I have to agree with kadilo about his development because he is not getting that under Mourinho, so needs experience outside of the club then bring him back when Mourinho has gone!!

[AlexRich]

4 hours ago, carmine said:

The jocks that behave like this, and not all do,  just come across as jealous, small minded and bitter.  I just think its funny, because they think they are being so amusing but in fact look really stupid!!

 

Not all Scots. I would have been happy to see England in the final. I gave up on anyone but England many years ago for the reason you’ve just outlined. England had a good tournament with a young squad but to be perfectly honest Croatia played better for three quarters of the match. England needed to press home the advantage with another goal but that never came. As a kid growing up in Scotland we always supported the likes of Liverpool, Nottingham Forest and Manchester United in Europe, the national thing never came into it. Think of it a bit like Spurs supporters attitude if Arsenal are in the European final ... they’d probably support the other team. 

[keithsimmonds]

4 hours ago, champers said:

Despite all the hyperbole in England, the biggest achievement is not being total failures and putting up reasonably creditable performances.

If you wonder how England would have played with Big Sam in the job, then it's probably just like they have in Russia. We bypassed midfield and looked to battle for free kicks and corners, maybe try and win some penalties. Send the big lads up for set pieces, score with headers. Not pretty, but effective.

BFS would not have had the foresight to have taken half that squad that Southgate took...he would still have had Rooney as skipper.

As for Chelsea and City not giving the youth a chance....they are only good at beating other kids,they just cant make the next step up.

[3 minus 2]

Yep.. as we thought the first 20 mins were HUGE, meant to post yesterday, that a 1 goal lead was never gonna be enuf.. but hey ,  we had our chances. That their classy midfield pushed up the park and pinged the ball around at will  was only 2b expected  even so we wernt up to stepping the pace up and closin them down INSTANTLY   aka kloppy and poch team style. The more the game went on the more ali and lingards lac of defensive  midfeild cover was exploited and  henderson was over run and the pressure showed more and more  in his poor distribution..  walkers pace is awesome.. but AGAIN his poor positional sence cost us   sterling is a nightmare 4 slowing c/dfs  ran his socks offq the boys a class act.. now he's settled up front i'm expecting he will  hit the net PROLIFICALLY for both club and country.. all in all cant hel but feel this is a HUGE opp missed that may NEVER come around again . but on the other hand never expected to get this far.. now onto probably  THE most hated game in footie.

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, xylophone said:

Have to agree with you, as Henderson was about as effective as a one-armed paperhanger, and he didn't anchor or run the midfield at all...…...something England lack and have done for an age.

 

They didn't play through the midfield so balls to feet were at a premium, and perhaps that was a plan, but why change from the last game when it stood them in such good stead.

 

As for Rashford, well just a couple of balls to feet in difficult positions were his lot so not what he likes...……….and I have to agree with kadilo about his development because he is not getting that under Mourinho, so needs experience outside of the club then bring him back when Mourinho has gone!!

We simply haven't got a creative midfield.  Southgate needs to look at players like Shelvey again.  I doubt Wilshere will ever be a force again, which is a shame.

 

There is a difference between this and previous squads: we hold on to the ball so much better, and this is particularly evident when you look at the backs. 

[xylophone]

5 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Southgate needs to look at players like Shelvey again.

Yes I thought he should have been included in the squad...…..excellent distribution, but...……..temper??

[Mike West]

8 hours ago, champers said:

Very good. Now go and eat your coco pops and get ready for school.

awww you a little bit butt hurt? ?

[mommysboy]

Just now, xylophone said:

Yes I thought he should have been included in the squad...…..excellent distribution, but...……..temper??

Yes... but the thing is there is simply a dearth of creative midfielders.  There must be one or two knocking around: we simply can't have an imbalanced squad like that again.

 

This notwithstanding, England are a much, much improved team, and there is a system in place that goes right the way up from u17 level.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, keithsimmonds said:

BFS would not have had the foresight to have taken half that squad that Southgate took...he would still have had Rooney as skipper.

As for Chelsea and City not giving the youth a chance....they are only good at beating other kids,they just cant make the next step up.

That next step is to dislodge at least one  world class player.

Edited July 12, 2018 by mommysboy

[jellydog]

12 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yes... but the thing is there is simply a dearth of creative midfielders.  There must be one or two knocking around: we simply can't have an imbalanced squad like that again.

 

This notwithstanding, England are a much, much improved team, and there is a system in place that goes right the way up from u17 level.

Phil Foden.

[alfieconn]

17 minutes ago, jellydog said:

Phil Foden.

Dont be so silly, he played 45 mins in the Premiership last season, would you be putting his name forward if he played for any other club ? the bias towards your own players from the other 2 seems to be catching.

[jellydog]

17 minutes ago, alfieconn said:

Dont be so silly, he played 45 mins in the Premiership last season, would you be putting his name forward if he played for any other club ? the bias towards your own players from the other 2 seems to be catching.

Seems pretty clear Alf that the conversation has moved to the England NT's future. From what I've seen of Foden he clearly has the potential to be a quality playmaker. Time will tell.

[3 minus 2]

50 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Yes I thought he should have been included in the squad...…..excellent distribution, but...……..temper??

He's great picin a pass   but i'm not sure he's physically capable of gettin up and down the park like southgate system demands for that central position and defensively he migjt b good enuf at championship but NOT convinced at prem level or has he proved himself at a champ lge club? . and does he score enuf to justify a place in an international squad? Tbh I could be massively wrong here but i'm only JUST seeing him as a regular starter 4 rafa .. 2 many questions over him maybe this'll b the season he'll ans them ALL cos tbh IMO he needs 2 b4 he'll.take that position away from henderson.. cos overall henderson remembering his lac of match fitness comin into the w/c has been great.and IMO  IS justifiably gonna b central to the short term and med term england/southgate  teams .

 

 

 

 

 

[champers]

1 hour ago, Mike West said:

awww you a little bit butt hurt? ?

Playtime?

[mommysboy]

56 minutes ago, jellydog said:

Seems pretty clear Alf that the conversation has moved to the England NT's future. From what I've seen of Foden he clearly has the potential to be a quality playmaker. Time will tell.

Agreed, we were talking about the future.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, 3 minus 2 said:

He's great picin a pass   but i'm not sure he's physically capable of gettin up and down the park like southgate system demands for that central position and defensively he migjt b good enuf at championship but NOT convinced at prem level or has he proved himself at a champ lge club? . and does he score enuf to justify a place in an international squad? Tbh I could be massively wrong here but i'm only JUST seeing him as a regular starter 4 rafa .. 2 many questions over him maybe this'll b the season he'll ans them ALL cos tbh IMO he needs 2 b4 he'll.take that position away from henderson.. cos overall henderson remembering his lac of match fitness comin into the w/c has been great.and IMO  IS justifiably gonna b central to the short term and med term england/southgate  teams .

 

 

 

 

 

Traditionally anyway, the mix was 1 stopper, 1 runner, and 1 passer.  It's the passer that England lack.  Henderson huffs and puffs, and you can't fault him in many ways, but imo he is a squad player- maybe he is ideal for qualifiers. That sounds harsh I know but...

[Mike West]

2 hours ago, champers said:

Playtime?

go back to sleep old man, you're boring me. 

[Mooner]

It was enjoyable. We had a identity and some belief but came unstuck again.

In reality we may be getting carried away. Did we beat anyone that we shouldnt have?

 

 

[RickG16]

27 minutes ago, Mooner said:

It was enjoyable. We had a identity and some belief but came unstuck again.

In reality we may be getting carried away. Did we beat anyone that we shouldnt have?

 

 

100% agree. Anyone who doesn't take into account the standard of opposition is kidding themselves. 

[3 minus 2]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Traditionally anyway, the mix was 1 stopper, 1 runner, and 1 passer.  It's the passer that England lack.  Henderson huffs and puffs, and you can't fault him in many ways, but imo he is a squad player- maybe he is ideal for qualifiers. That sounds harsh I know but...

Personally think your underestimating henderson. I was never  a fan.. but everytime he's challenged ie rodgers kloppy tbh i expected him to f up and b  gotten  rid  but he doesnt he steps up.. 4 me he makes liverpool 'tick' no reason match fit he cant do the same for england as for you one runner ect ect .. so it used to be but southgates midfield IS one runner/holder and lingard and ali.. ATM Shelvey couldnt FULL STOP.. do that job he would have got slaughtered yesterday...the only other atm that could do the job southgate wants and he has his limitations is dier.. wth a diferent system  others could come in but currently 4 OUR CURRENT system ie what others are callin our 'identity,'  they are the best on offer . I harp bac but we said our systems weakness was where croatia strength lay, making so ANYONE playing that role for england yesterday was gonna have a hard time ..and so it proved

Edited July 12, 2018 by 3 minus 2

[3 minus 2]

11 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

100% agree. Anyone who doesn't take into account the standard of opposition is kidding themselves. 

Yeah ok we got through to the semis .. great but IMO  The thing to take from this comp and WILL put us in good stead 4 the future is that as a team /squad/ unit  we look comfortable in a lengthy tournament enviroment something i've never really EVER seen b4

[mommysboy]

54 minutes ago, Mooner said:

It was enjoyable. We had a identity and some belief but came unstuck again.

In reality we may be getting carried away. Did we beat anyone that we shouldnt have?

 

 

Good grief! That's a bit bleak. We won a penalty shoot out for the first time, won a quarter final against a bogey team, and Colombia were a ranked team even if they did go mad.  It's a young side. We're back on the world stage.

[mommysboy]

13 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

Yeah ok we got through to the semis .. great but IMO  The thing to take from this comp and WILL put us in good stead 4 the future is that as a team /squad/ unit  we look comfortable in a lengthy tournament enviroment something i've never really EVER seen b4

And I've never seen us so comfortable in possession at times- have we ever had so many ball playing centre backs?

[Mooner]

9 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Good grief! That's a bit bleak. We won a penalty shoot out for the first time, won a quarter final against a bogey team, and Colombia were a ranked team even if they did go mad.  It's a young side. We're back on the world stage.

We won a penalty shoot out hence why i said we had belief. I know Sweden are a bogey team but this is a very poor Sweden team and Columbia had their best player missing.

Either way these are teams you need to be beating in group stages usually.

 

It really opened up for us this year and i dont think as many big teams will go out as early next time. 

 

[StevieH]

5 hours ago, mommysboy said:

We simply haven't got a creative midfield.  Southgate needs to look at players like Shelvey again.  I doubt Wilshere will ever be a force again, which is a shame.

 

There is a difference between this and previous squads: we hold on to the ball so much better, and this is particularly evident when you look at the backs. 

 

shelvey's rubbish mate. so is wilshere. neither anywhere near top class. 

 

agree about the lack of creative midfield, that's why premier league teams pay massive wages for top class talent, none of which is english. but your latter point i totally disagree, this england team this world cup has not been one that holds the ball or dominates possession at all, it's been a side based on pace and energy, which is fine in its place. it's only been better compared to previous england teams that treated the ball like a hot potato. 

 

if you are brutally honest about this england team's world cup you say well done for making the semi-finals, smashing achievement, but you did it via a really easy group and then a very favourable draw and you got beat by the first good team you played, which by dint of the draw was the semis. haven't really bossed matches apart from against the pub team panama, haven't really made a lot of chances from open play, most goals have come from dead balls, man of the match in the quarters against sweden was your goalkeeper. look at it objectively and it's been fun and a ride but they've not dominated any match like a really top side does. but then it's been that kind of a world cup i guess. nobody has really been that good.

 

and on that note, who is your player of the tournament? i can't really think of a standout individual, and i've thoroughly enjoyed this world cup.

[StevieH]

1 hour ago, Mooner said:

It was enjoyable. We had a identity and some belief but came unstuck again.

In reality we may be getting carried away. Did we beat anyone that we shouldnt have?

 

 

 

nope. pens vs colombia, a very average sweden needed the goalkeeper to be MOTM. the hype is in danger of overtaking the reality. which i thought was the likeable thing about this england side. did well, but let's be frank about it. kane scored 6 goals but 4 pens, 1 deflection off his heel and a header off a corner. didn't have many other chances and opposition keepers weren't worked much.

[Kadilo]

29 minutes ago, StevieH said:

 

nope. pens vs colombia, a very average sweden needed the goalkeeper to be MOTM. the hype is in danger of overtaking the reality. which i thought was the likeable thing about this england side. did well, but let's be frank about it. kane scored 6 goals but 4 pens, 1 deflection off his heel and a header off a corner. didn't have many other chances and opposition keepers weren't worked much.

I think Southgate said as much in his post match interview. He was very grounded and honest. We are work in progress. 

The most worrying thing for me was the lack of opportunities from open play. We created very little and relied heavily on set pieces. 

The thought that Kane will probably win  the golden boot is bizarre in what has been a strange World Cup in some ways but really enjoyable. 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Kadilo

[StevieH]

4 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

I think Southgate said as much in his post match interview. He was very grounded and honest. We are work in progress. 

The most worrying thing for me was the lack of opportunities from open play. We created very little and relied heavily on set pieces. 

The thought that Kane will probably win  the golden boot is bizarre in what has been a strange World Cup in some ways but really enjoyable. 

 

ah ok, didn't see his interview mate. but i just saw a stat about england having 6 shots on target all tournament from open play, that's just not good enough is it? midfield clearly needs to be better and maybe the 3-4-3 ish system doesn't work then if you're relying on corners, pens and free-kicks for your goals.

 

southgate is really likeable and i hope he has enough about him to learn and change. seems to. but yeah it's been a mad world cup and an entirely enjoyable one. germany, spain, brazil, argentina and portugal all out early doors. fun, really. hope to christ croatia win it now.

[Kadilo]

3 minutes ago, StevieH said:

 

ah ok, didn't see his interview mate. but i just saw a stat about england having 6 shots on target all tournament from open play, that's just not good enough is it? midfield clearly needs to be better and maybe the 3-4-3 ish system doesn't work then if you're relying on corners, pens and free-kicks for your goals.

 

southgate is really likeable and i hope he has enough about him to learn and change. seems to. but yeah it's been a mad world cup and an entirely enjoyable one. germany, spain, brazil, argentina and portugal all out early doors. fun, really. hope to christ croatia win it now.

No it’s not good enough with the talent we have so plenty to work on. 

Southgate has come out with a lot of credit and seems a really popular guy with the team too. I think he is work in progress too in. some ways. If I wanted to criticise him I think he was too loyal to Alli and Young and slow to make changes in the Croatia game in the second half when it was clear their tactical moves were causing us problems. 

But overall he has taken us a giant step forwards from where we are and I’m sure we will continue to improve under his leadership. 

[StevieH]

1 minute ago, Kadilo said:

No it’s not good enough with the talent we have so plenty to work on. 

Southgate has come out with a lot of credit and seems a really popular guy with the team too. I think he is work in progress too in. some ways. If I wanted to criticise him I think he was too loyal to Alli and Young and slow to make changes in the Croatia game in the second half when it was clear their tactical moves were causing us problems. 

But overall he has taken us a giant step forwards from where we are and I’m sure we will continue to improve under his leadership. 

 

i think he showed his naivety against a good side, which is totally understandable, he's not an experienced manager. didn't react to their changes as you say and a smart manager would have maybe brought on dier alongside henderson earlier, when croatia started to boss the midfield. 

 

i don't agree he's made giant steps other than in terms of likeability really. it's been fun to watch this england team in a world cup and the last time i can think of that is probably 1990. tactically he was exposed, but in making the team enjoyable again, and feeling optimistic about it, he's doing great.