Is this roof frame welding acceptable? -photos

[nzrick]

A team of three "welders" have the morning to finish this framing before the metal roof sheets will be craned onto the structure in the afternoon. To my eyes the galvanised frames need grinding smooth to remove all rust etc, and primed with zinc coating.

 

 

 

 

The standard of fabrication looks very amateur, bordering on dangerous. Apart from the cr@p welding the metal ring beam (wall plate) at the top of the conc pillars is supported by two bent rebar rods overhanging the outer face of the pillars in several places, as the pillars are leaning in.

 

 

 

 

[Strange]

25 minutes ago, nzrick said:

A team of three "welders" have the morning to finish this framing before the metal roof sheets will be craned onto the structure in the afternoon. To my eyes the galvanised frames need grinding smooth to remove all rust etc, and primed with zinc coating.

 

Ok so everything I see in the pictures looks normal from the viewpoint of "Thats how they do it here"

 

I can't tell if the metal is actually galvanized or if its just a cold gal paint, but either way typically they just booger weld everything then prime it up. IF you are not happy with it, then tell them, but to buff/grind every weld they are probably going to winge or say "no need". Its up to you, but if it was me, id let them get after it, and have a close look as they go and tell them to add a few passes if it looks shitty. After thats done, just prime/paint and forget about that aspect. Not worth freaking out about. 

 

31 minutes ago, nzrick said:

The standard of fabrication looks very amateur, bordering on dangerous. Apart from the cr@p welding the metal ring beam (wall plate) at the top of the conc pillars is supported by two bent rebar rods overhanging the outer face of the pillars in several places, as the pillars are leaning in.

 

Now this is a bit more concern. The weight can't sit on the rebar. Its normal for them to weld to the rebar because the exact elevation is hard to get exact with just the concrete columns. While some of the steel is overhanging the columns, there is some above it as well. What I did when I had the same issue, I had the guys take some wood and form up around the column and steel, and poured concrete in. That way its all settling on top of cement and not that rebar. Follow me? 

 

As far as being amateurish, yeah, its normal. 

 

And for the tile roof delivery, if they aint done the way you like it, and you are worried about it, just set the load on the ground near the house. They can tote it up there when its ready. But likely it will be fine as long as they don't point-load a whole pallet of tile on the roof. Let it dangle and be unloaded into its position.  

[Kwasaki]

w

Without on site viewing it is difficult to access from pictures just make sure welds are paint treated.

[samuijimmy]

You can view images in colour by right clicking and view in new tab... (until we get colour back)

 

Looks like they have not been painted with rust proof paint,...(Red oxide primer )  that is not usual from my observations of building here .... and usually done on the ground ...

[juehoe]

Not acceptable.

[Strange]

11 minutes ago, samuijimmy said:

Looks like they have not been painted with rust proof paint,...(Red oxide primer )  that is not usual from my observations of building here .... and usually done on the ground ...

 

It looks like It has a coating on it now, either hot galvanized, cold paint galvanize, or a paint/primer already. You can tell from the black soot around the welds and the fact that its not a mild steel color. 

 

Paint done on the ground, but still paint after the welds too. 

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, juehoe said:

Not acceptable.

 

Solution? 

[nzrick]

Thanks for the reply.

 

The problem with the rebar is that it's bent at 90 degrees towards the outside, so the wall plate is set outside the plane of the columns. The AAC blocks of the cavity wall to be built will terminate about 1m below the wall plate height and from the top of the AAC block wall, which is just above ceiling level, to the underside of the roof it will be built in framed shera wood to enclose the roof void of this small mono-pitched roof house.  I like the idea of enclosing in concrete, I'll suggest this to the builder tomorrow.

 

The 35mm x 70 mm battens are set on 50mm x 100mm joists, set on a 50mm x 100mm ring beam, or wall plate, all of box section galvanised steel. 

 

Maybe this photo of the west elevation, taken when the guys were fitting the battens today, will add context.

 

 

 

 

[Crossy]

It's certainly pretty carp, but in reality with a light weight steel roof it's not going anywhere.

 

Clean up and prime / cold galvanise and add a bit of concrete to the top of the columns and you're good to go.

[Strange]

14 minutes ago, nzrick said:

I like the idea of enclosing in concrete, I'll suggest this to the builder tomorrow.

 

Enclosing in concrete might get a few head scratches, I was meaning to take some form wood and form up past the steel a bit and pour in some concrete to bring the level of the concrete up to the steel for support. 

 

But yeah the pic of the bungalow provides a lot of context. I wouldn't worry about the truck crane hoisting the tiles up there. The guys can tote it up there no problem on the scaffold when its ready. They might not even be able to use the little truck crane to get up there. Just offload the pallet onto the ground. 

 

Edit:

 

Total Sq Meter and budget if I may ask?

Edited October 20, 2016 by Strange

[nzrick]

Thanks for the replies.

 

It's a one bedroom at 53sq m under a 132sq m roof which will overhang the north elevation by 5.5 metres to accommodate an outside shaded sitting area of about 5.5m x 5.5m. An outside kitchen will be built later on the east side, together with a more private outside sitting area for when the winds blow from the NE. No windows on the west. Total cost 530K all in. The site is a tight 14m x 14m in a small rural village in the Deep South.

 

I've postponed metal sheet delivery until the frame is to my liking. I want the crane to dump the sheets on the roof as I don't trust the roof guys scratching it all and scraping off the (useless?) radiant barrier that's glued to the underside if they are allowed to haul it up there. 

 

I've just learnt that the "welders"comprise two recently graduated plumbers - the helpers, and the the guy who did the actual welding is the guy who usually erects wooden framed roofs!

 

 

 

 

[Strange]

Dont know why I was thinking you were using a Tile Roof, but yeah lightweight metal roof you got nothing to worry about. Guess I was fixated on the crane and assuming weight. Concrete, prime/paint, done. 

 

10 hours ago, nzrick said:

I've just learnt that the "welders"comprise two recently graduated plumbers - the helpers, and the the guy who did the actual welding is the guy who usually erects wooden framed roofs!

 

Normal. Probably also rice farmers and a host of other "skills". 

 

They get the job done though. 

[carlyai]

Dont know why I was thinking you were using a Tile Roof, but yeah lightweight metal roof you got nothing to worry about. Guess I was fixated on the crane and assuming weight. Concrete, prime/paint, done. 
 
 
Normal. Probably also rice farmers and a host of other "skills". 
 
They get the job done though. 

I think they could have stuffed up there as normally (what ever that is), the metal beams would sit in the middle of the concrete piers, and the protruding reo would be welded to the beams.

Probably doesn't matter as light weight as all have said.

I'd consult the plan again...just to make sure it's all going to work.

The blocks could be a problem. Consult Qcon videos or downloadable pdf on the height, and if you need a bond beam. Make sure they drill and hammer the 6mm (if i remember) rebarb into the piers as stated in the Qcon manual. My first mob of block layers had trouble drilling into the hard cement of the columns so just mortered the straps in, until I found out and asked them to vacate.


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[carlyai]

Just a thought.

Are you using the (I suppose 7.5 cm double airated blocks) for the cavity walls to help with insulation?

If so, maybe you need to have another look at the roof design.

I just built a reasonably sized shed out of 10 cm Q Con blocks and metal roof with that rolled on insulation.

Seems to me all the heat comes thru the roof.

Now there has been a recent thread on trying to cool houses, and I have no scientific evidence to back this up, but I would install that fairly expensive double reflective enclosed insulation, insulation at least 2" below the roof.

I am just going on experience here. Before our place in Pattaya was fairly hot, but we insulated the roof with that spray on foam and it has made a big difference.

There is an old thread around where someone compared a lot of insulation and came up with a recommendation, I followed his advice with the Isaan house. (Unfortunately I had to leave the building job and only half the house was done with the expensive stuff).


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[carlyai]

Sorry, just another thought.

I read that the pillars are leaning in.....my shed pillars were leaning in and out.

No probs until the block layers come, then you have to decide which line to use to lay the blocks, as the blocks will be layed vertically and the pillars are not vertical. Probably can get around this with the 2 layers of blocks as in the cavity wall.

Next comes the plasterer. If you can't accommodate for concealing the leaning piers with the cavity, you have to consider how the plasterer can hide the lean.

Because I only used one row of blocks, not a cavity, I had this small bulge in the wall where the pier was leaning in. I mostly got around that using TOA WallTex paint...fixes up the plaster defects.

You can buy (I didn't) a special router to cut the blocks for power plug installation, seems to do a nice neat job.

I suppose you will put all the power and water conduits in the cavity. Use that green plastic thick tubing for the hot water, but make sure you show them how to reem the connection ends, and how to make good connections, and water test the finished complete job before you close the cavity, as 96% sure some will leak. (I had to break into 3m plastered cavities as my mob didn't pressure water test.).

Sorry. Just keep thinking of things.

Make sure you use earth wire throughout the house, anything metal should be earthed. Find a place where you are going to bang in the earth rod, and and get that set up before concrete goes over the spot.

If you're taking undergroung power to a pump make sure it is NYY cable in that black with red stripped conduit. I see next door to our place in Patts they are putting in underground cable, but only laying it just underground, should be about 2' I think. Watch that...you need the cable deep enough so you don't hit it with a spade.

Pic of shed.

Sorry, you probably know all this....i'll P**s Off now.[emoji3]



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[Strange]

13 hours ago, carlyai said:

I think they could have stuffed up there as normally (what ever that is), the metal beams would sit in the middle of the concrete piers, and the protruding reo would be welded to the beams.

 

The problem is, the way they do it here, with a water level, string line, etc, the support columns will never be perfectly true. The footings will never be exactly, perfectly in the right place. 

 

The only reason you, me, or OP even notice it, is cause we are there bird-dogging them lol

 

I mean I'm talking within reason here. A column thats 10cm out at the top, walls that are out when you stare real hard, etc. A lot will be negated when its all done. 

 

Also, there are no real "hallways" in Thai houses and this would probably be the best case scenario to actually "see" walls that were out as the tile centerline is there and the cuts near the wall. 

 

I do agree that OP should consider real deal insulation above his ceiling. The cost won't be bad with the size of his bungalow, and it only needs to be above the living spaces. 

[kannot]

H ahaaaaaaaaaaaaa I see things havent come a long  way since the 3  years ago a  local guy welded the roof  for me...whilst I wasnt there,......................against my instruction, made him take it all off when I got  back.... ferkwits!

Before and after photos, also got them to weld  plates over all joints then "I" painted the lot 4 times with red  oxide over the joints.

[kannot]

On 10/23/2016 at 5:01 AM, carlyai said:

Sorry, just another thought.

I read that the pillars are leaning in.....my shed pillars were leaning in and out.

No probs until the block layers come, then you have to decide which line to use to lay the blocks, as the blocks will be layed vertically and the pillars are not vertical. Probably can get around this with the 2 layers of blocks as in the cavity wall.

Next comes the plasterer. If you can't accommodate for concealing the leaning piers with the cavity, you have to consider how the plasterer can hide the lean.

Because I only used one row of blocks, not a cavity, I had this small bulge in the wall where the pier was leaning in. I mostly got around that using TOA WallTex paint...fixes up the plaster defects.

You can buy (I didn't) a special router to cut the blocks for power plug installation, seems to do a nice neat job.

I suppose you will put all the power and water conduits in the cavity. Use that green plastic thick tubing for the hot water, but make sure you show them how to reem the connection ends, and how to make good connections, and water test the finished complete job before you close the cavity, as 96% sure some will leak. (I had to break into 3m plastered cavities as my mob didn't pressure water test.).

Sorry. Just keep thinking of things.

Make sure you use earth wire throughout the house, anything metal should be earthed. Find a place where you are going to bang in the earth rod, and and get that set up before concrete goes over the spot.

If you're taking undergroung power to a pump make sure it is NYY cable in that black with red stripped conduit. I see next door to our place in Patts they are putting in underground cable, but only laying it just underground, should be about 2' I think. Watch that...you need the cable deep enough so you don't hit it with a spade.

Pic of shed.

Sorry, you probably know all this....i'll P**s Off now.



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Just done some electrics  here, do  it myself, heres  my NYY in ldpe trunking 1  metre  underground along with 40mm hdpe water  pipe...................the staff member is  not dead, i did  not cut  up his corpse and bury it......sometimes I wish had though !!

[carlyai]

Just done some electrics  here, do  it myself, heres  my NYY in ldpe trunking 1  metre  underground along with 40mm hdpe water  pipe...................the staff member is  not dead, i did  not cut  up his corpse and bury it......sometimes I wish had though !!

That's a nice job. [emoji5]

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[kannot]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

That's a nice job.

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yeah  we didnt  want  to waste  fuel taking  him down  to the temple

[farmerjo]

I'm having a structure put up now.Been using the same guy for 10 years.

Only bug bear is they don't fully weld each join and paint is only good for about 3 years.

Other than that it's well designed and not going anywhere.

 

[Crossy]

I'm glad we're not the only ones with a bucket full of concrete and PVC pipe as an umbrella stand :)

 

Jo, that looks like real scaffolding, are you sure it's in Thailand :)

[Grubster]

I think they are not done yet as the butt weld on the vertical steel in 1st photo is not done.   I have done a lot of welding to specs, but I must say that a bugger weld will hold pretty good but sure is hard to look at. Kannot's welds in picture #2 look strong, the plates on #3 look like overkill, but that is better than not good enough.

[Grubster]

On October 25, 2016 at 8:12 AM, farmerjo said:

I'm having a structure put up now.Been using the same guy for 10 years.

Only bug bear is they don't fully weld each join and paint is only good for about 3 years.

Other than that it's well designed and not going anywhere.

 

Top and two sides will be OK and may even allow water to weep out if this is a farm building. They won't be doing much overhead welding here anytime soon. Looks like a sound structure to me. The paint won't last long if not expensive and applied professionally, Hey a little rust never bothered me back on the farm.

[carlyai]

Driving from Patts to Isaan and was impressed by the construction of the new roads up the mountain before Korat.

The company Thai Italian, big outfit.

BUT, the welders welding the reo for the bridge frames are still striking the arc for a few seconds, stop, start, stop, start.....as everyone does it here in Thailand, maybe It's the preferred method now?

Have I missed something?

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[farmerjo]

I think it's because the majority don't wear helmets so cannot see the path to follow or their to lazy to set the amps right on the machine for metal thickness and rod size.

I guess it's hard to set the amps for thin steel when you have to burn the paint off and weld at the same time.

[carlyai]

Good points, but the Korat mountain overpass, tunnels is a large engineering project.

Surely they have professional welders, and the correct welding masks and correct power for the welders.

So why put up with faulty welding practice, unless it's the new norm?

I am not a welder, and only had to learn welding as part of my trade, but a continuous weld was the method taught, not the stop/start learned here.

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[Strange]

3 hours ago, farmerjo said:

I think it's because the majority don't wear helmets so cannot see the path to follow or their to lazy to set the amps right on the machine for metal thickness and rod size.

I guess it's hard to set the amps for thin steel when you have to burn the paint off and weld at the same time.

 

All this is true but the biggest thing the fitting. In professional welding areas there are "fitters" and "welders"  

 

Fitment is the main reason they can't run a bead and why they start-stop. They are gap filling (or trying to) 

 

I can run a smooth bead with the little machines they use. Its just a matter of rod-size, rod type, amperage, and the biggest, fitment. Its quicker and easier to hack some junk together stitch weld it up. Its not strong or good though. 

 

Can still weld through paint, galvanize, rust, with the right rod and fit. Im not talking about code welding though, just junk iron welding like we do here. 

[Strange]

3 hours ago, farmerjo said:

I guess it's hard to set the amps for thin steel when you have to burn the paint off and weld at the same time.

 

There is a slight technique to this but not hard if the fit is good (and you wear a hood of course) just pull the rod tip back and use the heat to burn off the paint, then bury the rod tip to weld the gap. Rinse and repeat. 

[Strange]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

So why put up with faulty welding practice, unless it's the new norm?

 

Cause they don't care if anyone gets hurt, and want to do it as cheaply as possible. Also, the welding you see might not be structural at all. TIT you know safety and standard don't really exist. Just "get it to stick" is all they care about.