May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[jimmybkk]

On 21/01/2017 at 1:12 PM, sandyf said:

Totally and the result should have been declared invalid.

Sorry Sandy, but your credibility just went down the tubes as far as I am concerned. The 2 issues I referred to regarding the referendum that in my eyes were wrong were the UK govt. spending 9m quid of taxpayers money on leaflets advocating a remain vote which were issued to every household in the UK, and the "glitch" that caused the voter registration website to be shut down for less than 2 hours just prior to the registration deadline that resulted in a 48-hour extension to the deadline... Both of these issues favoured the Remain camp... And you're saying that because these attempts to sway the vote failed, the result should be declared invalid... Are you serious?

 

If a boxing match took place in which the champ got knocked out by the underdog and afterwards it was revealed that the champ had actually fought the fight with a horseshoe in his glove, would you call for the fight to be declared invalid? Because the rest of the (sane) world would say that the result should stand and that the champ should be banned from boxing.

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Exactly which of the above comments from Bill Connolly do you agree with? He is correct about Braveheart, although I would put the blame more on Hollywood than Australia. As for the man's character, I cannot say - records are scant from those times.  If it is about Scottish racism, you have made remarks before about anti-english sentiment in Scotland and I have asked you to give clear and unambiguous examples to back up those claims, but all you have ever been able to offer were vague annecdotes from your imaginary facebook friends up there.

 

If you want to experience real intra-UK hatred and bigotry, then take a look at the Daily Mail online comments whenever there is a topic about the SNP or Scotland in general. Then you will see the true face of this Better Together nonsense. There is hatred in the UK, but it mainly from little englanders who are still in shock trying to grasp just how, in the space of a centurty, England has gone from being a world leader to a laughing stock the world over.

 

Edit: probably also worth pointing out that far more people in Scotland, by majority and percentage, wanted to stay within Europe than wanted to remain in the UK.

 

Tries to claim there is no anti-English sentiment among Scots, then goes on to make childish, derogatory claims about England's standing in the world. Facile and unintentionally comical in equal measures.

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Tries to claim there is no anti-English sentiment among Scots, then goes on to make childish, derogatory claims about England's standing in the world. Facile and unintentionally comical in equal measures.

 

I made no claim that there was no such sentiment in Scotland - sadly there is, although I believe it to be marginal rather than endemic, as is suggested so frequently. But you are correct - I allowed my deep frustration at the continuation of this insidious fallacy to get the better of me. Thank you for pointing that out - I will try harder to keep my frustrations in check.

[jimmybkk]

On 24/01/2017 at 1:19 PM, AlexRich said:

 

... maybe it's that young people are more tolerant of different nationalities, and don't have a memory of some golden age in the UK that never existed. Perhaps they realise that the UK needs a larger population to maintain funding for things like pensions, NHS, and care for the elderly, the financial burden of which will fall on them. The vote was about immigration, period. Now those same young people will be going back to the 1970's, thanks to the vote of the older, "wiser" generation, many of whom won't be alive to see the mess. 

 

Referendums are just opinion polls ... like opinion polls they can be wrong but are not as easily reversible. 

Totally false assertions contained in this post. The vote was certainly not "about immigration, period." However, since you have stated it please provide absolute proof of that fact, or else back-pedal and then tell the forum that you have in fact been caught stating your own opinions to be fact when the truth is there is no truth in your assertions...

 

Most likely, as well as being statistically less well educated (see attached), the older folk who voted for Brexit remember the following:

 

1. Being lied to that joining the EU was all about trade and that the UK was joining the European Economic Community (EEC), or "Common Market" as it was commonly known, with no mention being made of open borders.
2. Not being given the chance to vote for or against the UK joining the EEC.
3. Seeing TV footage of butter mountains and the like and the horrendous waste being caused by the EU's ridiculous policies.

and, perhaps most importantly:

 

       4. Family members who died in World War II, who either signed up voluntarily or else were conscripted and who placed their own lives in danger simply by following the orders of their superiors. And with what ultimate goal? To defend our borders and the borders of our allies.

 

And you're all for simply forgetting about that...??? I'm guessing by your posts that none of your family members had the "cojones" to step up and fight.

[AlexRich]

57 minutes ago, jimmybkk said:

Totally false assertions contained in this post. The vote was certainly not "about immigration, period." However, since you have stated it please provide absolute proof of that fact, or else back-pedal and then tell the forum that you have in fact been caught stating your own opinions to be fact when the truth is there is no truth in your assertions...

 

Most likely, as well as being statistically less well educated (see attached), the older folk who voted for Brexit remember the following:

 

1. Being lied to that joining the EU was all about trade and that the UK was joining the European Economic Community (EEC), or "Common Market" as it was commonly known, with no mention being made of open borders.
2. Not being given the chance to vote for or against the UK joining the EEC.
3. Seeing TV footage of butter mountains and the like and the horrendous waste being caused by the EU's ridiculous policies.

and, perhaps most importantly:

 

       4. Family members who died in World War II, who either signed up voluntarily or else were conscripted and who placed their own lives in danger simply by following the orders of their superiors. And with what ultimate goal? To defend our borders and the borders of our allies.

 

And you're all for simply forgetting about that...??? I'm guessing by your posts that none of your family members had the "cojones" to step up and fight.

Utter nonsense from you - the UK could have left the EU at any time during the 40 odd years of membership. So what changed? Thousands of Eastern Europeans suddenly appeared in our towns and cities ... and many Brits didn't like it sufficiently to push the vote to Leave. 

 

And that's what UKIP et al focused on ... the referendum was won by Brexit supporters because of concerns over immigration ... not anything else.

 

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, jimmybkk said:

Totally false assertions contained in this post. The vote was certainly not "about immigration, period." However, since you have stated it please provide absolute proof of that fact, or else back-pedal and then tell the forum that you have in fact been caught stating your own opinions to be fact when the truth is there is no truth in your assertions...

 

Most likely, as well as being statistically less well educated (see attached), the older folk who voted for Brexit remember the following:

 

1. Being lied to that joining the EU was all about trade and that the UK was joining the European Economic Community (EEC), or "Common Market" as it was commonly known, with no mention being made of open borders.
2. Not being given the chance to vote for or against the UK joining the EEC.
3. Seeing TV footage of butter mountains and the like and the horrendous waste being caused by the EU's ridiculous policies.

and, perhaps most importantly:

 

       4. Family members who died in World War II, who either signed up voluntarily or else were conscripted and who placed their own lives in danger simply by following the orders of their superiors. And with what ultimate goal? To defend our borders and the borders of our allies.

 

And you're all for simply forgetting about that...??? I'm guessing by your posts that none of your family members had the "cojones" to step up and fight.

Thank you jimmy,this is very informative.For my age group there is now 9 x more chance of obtaining entry to university. For higher degrees 30x more chance.

The only thing that doe'st add up is where today, are the educated graduates who possess common sense. I ask this because some of those graduates on this thread only seem to have obtained a degree in arrogance.

[7by7]

2 hours ago, jimmybkk said:

Most likely, as well as being statistically less well educated (see attached), the older folk who voted for Brexit remember the following:

 

1. Being lied to that joining the EU was all about trade and that the UK was joining the European Economic Community (EEC), or "Common Market" as it was commonly known, with no mention being made of open borders.
2. Not being given the chance to vote for or against the UK joining the EEC.
3. Seeing TV footage of butter mountains and the like and the horrendous waste being caused by the EU's ridiculous policies.

and, perhaps most importantly:

 

       4. Family members who died in World War II, who either signed up voluntarily or else were conscripted and who placed their own lives in danger simply by following the orders of their superiors. And with what ultimate goal? To defend our borders and the borders of our allies.

 

And you're all for simply forgetting about that...??? I'm guessing by your posts that none of your family members had the "cojones" to step up and fight.

 

1) I do remember that we were told joining what was then the EEC would not effect our sovereignty in any way. But, one of the five founding principles of the EEC was the free movement of people. That was in place before we joined and when we joined we agreed to it.

 

2) Have you forgotten the 1975 referendum? OK, it wasn't about joining, Heath had already taken us in. But it was about whether to remain in or not following Wilson's so called renegotiation. Wilson's deal did not exclude the UK from the free movement of people.

 

3) I agree that the policy of paying farmers to produce food no one wanted or paying them to produce nothing had many faults. But it needs to be remembered that British farmers benefited just as much from this policy as those in other member states.

 

4) Both my parents volunteered in 1939; my father joined the RAF, my mother the ATS. Thankfully both survived the war. They did so to fight Nazism, to defend the UK and to defend our allies.

 

But, had we not had an agreement with Poland then we would not have declared war when Germany invaded Poland.

 

Remember what Chamberlain said about Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia? "How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is, that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here, because of a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing......"

 

Since the end of the war, at first non Soviet Europe, now the whole EU and EEA, have been and still are our allies; and still will be post Brexit

 

One of the primary aims of what is now the EU has been from the very start of  it's history to bring European countries together and prevent such carnage on such a scale from ever happening again. For all it's faults, so far it has been successful in that aim.

 

Where did they get the idea from? Well, one possible source is a speech made in Zurich on 19th September 1946.

 

After beginning by recapping the horrors and carnage of the war and it's aftermath, the speaker said

Quote

Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted, would as if by a miracle transform the whole scene, and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and as happy as Switzerland is today.

What is this sovereign remedy?

It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom.

We must build a kind of United States of Europe.

In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living

 

Do you know who that speaker was?

 

Winston Churchill.

 

You can read the whole speech here.

Edited January 27, 2017 by 7by7

[AlexRich]

6 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Tries to claim there is no anti-English sentiment among Scots, then goes on to make childish, derogatory claims about England's standing in the world. Facile and unintentionally comical in equal measures.

The term "Little Englander" is widely used, by English people and other nationalities ... to denote narrow minded and bigoted English people, who hate "johnny foreigner" and hark back to some halcyon day that never was ... the Empire, long gone and never to be revived.

 

The "Little Englander" mentality can be found amongst all nationalities, Scots, Thais, Welsh, French, German, American, etc  ... same malady under a different name. The common denominator is the need for someone to hate and blame for all your ills, conveniently provided by foreigners. Thankfully, the younger generation are less likely to catch the disease, so perhaps there's hope for the future. 

 

[AlexRich]

4 hours ago, jimmybkk said:

Totally false assertions contained in this post. The vote was certainly not "about immigration, period." However, since you have stated it please provide absolute proof of that fact, or else back-pedal and then tell the forum that you have in fact been caught stating your own opinions to be fact when the truth is there is no truth in your assertions...

 

Most likely, as well as being statistically less well educated (see attached), the older folk who voted for Brexit remember the following:

 

1. Being lied to that joining the EU was all about trade and that the UK was joining the European Economic Community (EEC), or "Common Market" as it was commonly known, with no mention being made of open borders.
2. Not being given the chance to vote for or against the UK joining the EEC.
3. Seeing TV footage of butter mountains and the like and the horrendous waste being caused by the EU's ridiculous policies.

and, perhaps most importantly:

 

       4. Family members who died in World War II, who either signed up voluntarily or else were conscripted and who placed their own lives in danger simply by following the orders of their superiors. And with what ultimate goal? To defend our borders and the borders of our allies.

 

And you're all for simply forgetting about that...??? I'm guessing by your posts that none of your family members had the "cojones" to step up and fight.

 

As a matter of interest Jimmy ... can you regale us all with your experiences fighting for Queen and Country? Did they give you a medal?

 

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

The end of the world was going to happen with the referendum result for leave. That never happened. I love how some posters now discard that and are waiting for Brexit to officially happen and then the financial meltdown will happen. Once again the experts are now moving away from that but the doom and gloom doomsday preppers are clinging on to this hope. Sad.

 

I keep hearing that the UK can't do business with other countries until they are out of the EU. Says who. The prime minister can and is and this just shows the EU mentality of control. The sooner we are out the better. I am looking forward to other countries giving the EU the middle finger in the future and they will be asking what happened. Arrogance is what along with its inability to change.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Laughing Gravy

[SaintLouisBlues]

23 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The end of the world was going to happen with the referendum result for leave. That never happened. I love how some posters now discard that and are waiting for Brexit to officially happen and then the financial meltdown will happen. Once again the experts are now moving away from that but the doom and gloom doomsday preppers are clinging on to this hope. Sad.

Drama queens abound

[sandyf]

It is not only the UK devolved agreements that the average leave voter has little regard for, they have absolutely no interest in Gibraltar or the Falklands, after all if they don't live in England what has it got to do with us. I doubt if many know where they actually are, and I hate to say this but my son is one of them, geography is not a strong point with the young.

Both of those territories are in danger of having to change nationality. How are the families of those that died in the Falklands war going to feel if TM has to hand it over to Argentina.

Only a brexiteer would believe that the UK can become a member of the WTO without coming under pressure to give up the Falklands and Gibraltar.

 

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

 How do you know that those who voted to leave had absolutely no interest in those issues? They vote was carried out by the British people as a whole,and the collected decisions was to leave this so called Union. As for the Nth Irish vote, I'm sure that your aware of other factors that would have influenced their vote.

As for the 6 million Scots ,out of the official British population of 68 million, I' m sure that many thought it was in the best interest of the U.K. To remain, however with others,I don't think so,as I!m more inclined to agree with Billy Connelly.

 

Democracy is in the eye of the beholder and in your democratic world the Sewel convention obviously doesn't exist.

 

It doesn't matter how you try and dress it up there are fundamental problems problems with the devolved administrations and they are not going to go away.

TM is obviously referring to England when she says 'the country is coming together', she cannot possibly be so arrogant as to mean the UK.

[jpinx]

On 21/01/2017 at 6:12 AM, sandyf said:

Totally and the result should have been declared invalid.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/965911-court-case-on-whether-brexit-can-be-reversed-to-be-filed-friday/?page=2#comment-11566403

 

[evadgib]

21 minutes ago, jpinx said:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/965911-court-case-on-whether-brexit-can-be-reversed-to-be-filed-friday/?page=2#comment-11566403

 

They can't sulk forever :)

Edited January 28, 2017 by evadgib

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, jimmybkk said:

Sorry Sandy, but your credibility just went down the tubes as far as I am concerned. The 2 issues I referred to regarding the referendum that in my eyes were wrong were the UK govt. spending 9m quid of taxpayers money on leaflets advocating a remain vote which were issued to every household in the UK, and the "glitch" that caused the voter registration website to be shut down for less than 2 hours just prior to the registration deadline that resulted in a 48-hour extension to the deadline... Both of these issues favoured the Remain camp... And you're saying that because these attempts to sway the vote failed, the result should be declared invalid... Are you serious?

 

If a boxing match took place in which the champ got knocked out by the underdog and afterwards it was revealed that the champ had actually fought the fight with a horseshoe in his glove, would you call for the fight to be declared invalid? Because the rest of the (sane) world would say that the result should stand and that the champ should be banned from boxing.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one. Any perceived interference in the process should have brought the result into question and in this case with both sides bending the rules there should have been an enquiry before any result announced.

Back in July a constitutional expert stated that it appeared the government had breached the rules in the campaign but the breach would go unpunished unless someone took it to go to court.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-dr-peter-catterall-says-eu-referendum-didnt-follow-the-letter-of-the-law-2016-7

and then of course there was the 'lies', wonder what the outcome will be if it actually goes to court.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-justice-european-union-boris-johnson-2016-9

[sandyf]

Message to MPs from the late Tam Dalyell.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tam-dalyell-labour-mp-dead-have-the-balls-block-brexit-jeremy-corbyn-article-50-trigger-vote-a7548696.html

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

It is not only the UK devolved agreements that the average leave voter has little regard for, they have absolutely no interest in Gibraltar or the Falklands, after all if they don't live in England what has it got to do with us. I doubt if many know where they actually are, and I hate to say this but my son is one of them, geography is not a strong point with the young.

Both of those territories are in danger of having to change nationality. How are the families of those that died in the Falklands war going to feel if TM has to hand it over to Argentina.

Only a brexiteer would believe that the UK can become a member of the WTO without coming under pressure to give up the Falklands and Gibraltar.

 

I'm baffled In regards to how the UK withdrawing from this so- called Union, may lead to the people of Gibraltar and the Falklands having to change nationality. That could only happen is if THEY had a vote on that issue.

I'm now wondering what is the next stumbling block you Remoaners will pluck from thin air, in your hope that the democratic will of the electorate will be ignored.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I'm baffled In regards to how the UK withdrawing from this so- called Union, may lead to the people of Gibraltar and the Falklands having to change nationality. That could only happen is if THEY had a vote on that issue.

I'm now wondering what is the next stumbling block you Remoaners will pluck from thin air, in your hope that the democratic will of the electorate will be ignored.

 

 

 

According to some analysis, 40% of jobs in Gibraltar could be lost if there is a hard Brexit - that is the the issue for them. They maybe a very small number of people in the greater scheme of things, but they will quite likely be more directly impacted than most Brits.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

I'm baffled In regards to how the UK withdrawing from this so- called Union, may lead to the people of Gibraltar and the Falklands having to change nationality. That could only happen is if THEY had a vote on that issue.

 

You obviously decided to ignore my last sentence.

Brexit: UK's WTO status 'could be blocked over territorial disputes'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-wto-schedule-argentina-spain-brexit-latest-a7468766.html

[jpinx]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You obviously decided to ignore my last sentence.

Brexit: UK's WTO status 'could be blocked over territorial disputes'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-wto-schedule-argentina-spain-brexit-latest-a7468766.html

Check out the French, USA, and other "Overseas Territories" at the same time..... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_States

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Map-Europe-Outermost-regions.PNG

Becoming independent will not change the UK's relationship with those territories who have chosen to remain part of the UK. 

Edited January 28, 2017 by jpinx

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

According to some analysis, 40% of jobs in Gibraltar could be lost if there is a hard Brexit - that is the the issue for them. They maybe a very small number of people in the greater scheme of things, but they will quite likely be more directly impacted than most Brits.

According to some "analyst". Would that be the same "analyst" who predicted that within weeks,if not days that the British economy would collapse in the event of Briexit. I'm sure you are also aware that the Gibraltar economy is based mainly on shipping, finance,tourism and the British military presence. What may happen,though nobody knows for sure is that Maybe finance could be affected,while at the same time if Spain tries to pressurise the Rock,then this would lead to an increase British military presence,employing more locals.

The people who could have a problem with employment on the Rock,would more than likely be the many Spanish workers who travel from Spain every day,and as you well know the Spanish unemployment level is already very high.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

According to some "analyst". Would that be the same "analyst" who predicted that within weeks,if not days that the British economy would collapse in the event of Briexit. I'm sure you are also aware that the Gibraltar economy is based mainly on shipping, finance,tourism and the British military presence. What may happen,though nobody knows for sure is that Maybe finance could be affected,while at the same time if Spain tries to pressurise the Rock,then this would lead to an increase British military presence,employing more locals.

The people who could have a problem with employment on the Rock,would more than likely be the many Spanish workers who travel from Spain every day,and as you well know the Spanish unemployment level is already very high.

 

Nope - that would the people of Gibraltar themselves: "Nearly half of all jobs in Gibraltar would be put at risk by a hard border after Brexit, according to a detailed analysis prepared by the Gibraltar Government."

 

I suggest that you look at your last sentence again, only this time think about it with a bit more of an analytical mind. If you still don't see the problem, find any business owner and ask him or her what effect it would have on their business if 40% of his staff were to resign overnight. Then, ask them how they would fill those jobs with from a tiny population and limited housing capacity for an influx of Brits to do the work that the Spanish residing workforce can no longer do - assuming, that is, they can attract the necessary additional workforce with the appropriate skills. Maybe also ask him if he has budgeted for the additional training these people will require.

[maxtwo]

 
Nope - that would the people of Gibraltar themselves: "Nearly half of all jobs in Gibraltar would be put at risk by a hard border after Brexit, according to a detailed analysis prepared by the Gibraltar Government."
 
I suggest that you look at your last sentence again, only this time think about it with a bit more of an analytical mind. If you still don't see the problem, find any business owner and ask him or her what effect it would have on their business if 40% of his staff were to resign overnight. Then, ask them how they would fill those jobs with from a tiny population and limited housing capacity for an influx of Brits to do the work that the Spanish residing workforce can no longer do - assuming, that is, they can attract the necessary additional workforce with the appropriate skills. Maybe also ask him if he has budgeted for the additional training these people will require.

If 40% of my employees resigned I would be quite happy and down size my business and spend longer in Thailand.

[evadgib]

I'd be quite happy to see Gibraltar remain within the EU as part of our exit negotiations providing their status as an overseas territory isn't compromised.

Edited January 28, 2017 by evadgib

[dick dasterdly]

22 hours ago, AlexRich said:

The term "Little Englander" is widely used, by English people and other nationalities ... to denote narrow minded and bigoted English people, who hate "johnny foreigner" and hark back to some halcyon day that never was ... the Empire, long gone and never to be revived.

 

The "Little Englander" mentality can be found amongst all nationalities, Scots, Thais, Welsh, French, German, American, etc  ... same malady under a different name. The common denominator is the need for someone to hate and blame for all your ills, conveniently provided by foreigners. Thankfully, the younger generation are less likely to catch the disease, so perhaps there's hope for the future. 

 

The term 'little Englander' doesn't only denote narrow minded and bigoted people - there are some that are far from narrow minded and bigoted, but are nationalistic and so get bad tempered about EU laws being enforced in England.

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

The term 'little Englander' doesn't only denote narrow minded and bigoted people - there are some that are far from narrow minded and bigoted, but are nationalistic and so get bad tempered about EU laws being enforced in England.

Bad tempered ... and looking to blame a foreigner, you've proved my point. 

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The term 'little Englander' doesn't only denote narrow minded and bigoted people - there are some that are far from narrow minded and bigoted, but are nationalistic and so get bad tempered about EU laws being enforced in England.

 

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

Bad tempered ... and looking to blame a foreigner, you've proved my point. 

I did nothing of the sort, and its depressing when these sorts of 'arguments' are used.

 

Edit - Incidentally, I'm not at all nationalistic and will happily argue against that POV, which is why I find it depressing when posts are twisted this way.

Edited January 28, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I did nothing of the sort, and its depressing when these sorts of 'arguments' are used.

 

Edit - Incidentally, I'm not at all nationalistic and will happily argue against that POV, which is why I find it depressing when posts are twisted this way.

It wasn't directed at you, it was directed at your description of Little Englander ... i.e. Bad tempered about EU laws, the EU being the foreigner ...!

[sandyf]

8 hours ago, jpinx said:

Check out the French, USA, and other "Overseas Territories" at the same time..... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_States

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Map-Europe-Outermost-regions.PNG

Becoming independent will not change the UK's relationship with those territories who have chosen to remain part of the UK. 

Obviously the point being made has gone over your head. Absolutely nothing to do with anyone choosing to remain part of the UK.