Dutch man electrocuted after falling in Hua Hin swimming pool

[HerbalEd]

14 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Some people in Thailand are just so unlucky,unfortunate accidents, RIP

regards Worgeordie

Yes, the unlucky Thai. This sort of thing never happens in Europe or North America.

[Damrongsak]

1 hour ago, MiKT said:

 

... Standard Thai electricity supply is 230 VAC and the two wires (Line and Neutral) both carry the same 230 Volts....

Right you are.  Think of it as Line 1 and Line 2.  Here in the U.S. we have 240 Volts line-to-line.  But we also have a center tap on the transformer so we can get 120 from either line to "Neutral". It's confusing because we happen to bond the ground to the center-tapped "neutral" back at the service panel. Here, it is possible to connect two equal loads, one to each line in, and share a common neutral.  If both loads are on, the "neutral" will not carry any current.  I think that may be the origin of the term "neutral".

 

I have several 240 Volt circuits in my garage to run electric welders & such.  They would work just fine with only the two hot lines and no ground, as some of the Thai installations seem to be.  But having metal enclosures, an internal fault to the case would make it hot.  I do not want to become a ground, neutral or any other sort of conductive path.  Tends to ruin one's day (or life).  Old homes here often have only Line and Neutral for wall outlets and lighting. "Double Insulated" appliances with only a 2 prong plug are fine with it.  But I prefer 3-wire plugs & outlets.

 

I gave my son a neon sign transformer to play with.  He made a Jacob's Ladder setup.  The transformer will put out a maximum of about 30 milliAmps.  But that's at about 20,000 Volts.  Easily enough to kill and the spark can cover a fair gap if you even get near it. 

 

[balo]

Do we have it on video so we can avoid any speculations? Normally they spread videos like this on Facebook in Thailand . 

[jacko45k]

17 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Wouldn't a normal fuse  prevent such a tragedy?

No......likely not.

[rosst]

17 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Wouldn't a normal fuse  prevent such a tragedy?

No, but RCD protection mandatory in OX now would have.

[louse1953]

21 hours ago, Ralf61 said:

 

It's just coroner's stuff to get the paperwork done. Had to witness that one on a friend of mine (who suddenly and mysteriously died short before moving out to his new girlfriend). But "autopsy" sounds much better in the news...

 

From "The Nation":

 

Proven stupidity of some farangs.

[impulse]

2 hours ago, rosst said:

No, but RCD protection mandatory in OX now would have.

 

I think a more accurate characterization would be "may have".  

 

Given that a GFI/RCD (or whatever your home country calls it) is designed to sense current leakage to a ground or neutral, and the Thai 2 wire 220V system doesn't really have a ground or neutral, I don't know how the GFI system can tell whether it's lighting up the light bulb, or the guy holding the light bulb.  Unless there's a path to ground from the water in the pool, then back to the GFI to sense the leakage.  And even then, it may not have cut off fast enough to save him.  (I look forward to Crossy's input- agree or disagree- I'm not a household E- guy)

 

I think the lesson learned here is not to trust that there are safety systems built into the power system here, and not to trust that the safety systems will save us.  It's on each of us to keep ourselves and our loved ones safe.

[madusa]

On 18/11/2016 at 9:01 PM, geriatrickid said:

Wouldn't a normal fuse  prevent such a tragedy?

When you pulled a live wire(that's the decoration lights plug in ) into the pool it will electrocute you, fuse will not prevent anything in this case.

Fuse only prevent overloading of electricity, it will cause a shut down.

[hugh2121]

Pot plant, hanging mains light nearby pool. Health and Safety in Thailand.

[jim cortesos]

Awful 

[Peterw42]

9 hours ago, MiKT said:

Sorry, this is only kind of correct. Fuses are the protective means to break the current running through a faulty wire, or appliance (or a person touching the live part) and simple fuses rely on burning out in the event of a short circuit.

 

Sorry, this is only kind of correct. The wiki page you quoted even says it.

 

"A miniature or molded - case circuit breaker is an automatically operated electrical switch designed to protect an electrical circuit from damage caused by overcurrent or overload or short circuit."

 

A person in contact with the live wire is not providing a short cct or overcurrent. People have resistance, grab an ohm meter and measure it. A person being electrocuted isnt drawing enough current to blow the fuse. Most of the time a person who has been electrocuted is still live, the fuse hasn't blown and protected them.  A fuse or cct breaker does not protect from elecrocution. (An earth leakage breaker does, but thats a different thing)

 

An earth on the other hand provides a low resistance path for the electricity to take.. And electricity will take the path of lowest resistance. Plug in a faulty toaster, the metal case has become live, if the case is earthed, the electricty will go to earth, not through you when you touch the toaster.  a dead short to earth will blow the fuse, a path of some resistance and it may not blow the fuse, the earth is still protecting you.

 

An earth leakage cct breaker takes it a step futher , it detects current going to earth (a faulty condition) and cuts the power. In the case of the guy in the pool, if an earth leakage device was fitted it would have saved him as they will trip in 20 milliseconds.

[nosatisfaction]

22 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Wouldn't a normal fuse  prevent such a tragedy?

Definately NO, only RGB might protect...You are warned...

[impulse]

23 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

 

An earth leakage cct breaker takes it a step futher , it detects current going to earth (a faulty condition) and cuts the power. In the case of the guy in the pool, if an earth leakage device was fitted it would have saved him as they will trip in 20 milliseconds.

 

Maybe, maybe not.  He had both leads with him in the pool.  There was a current path that didn't require a ground fault.  It's not much different than plugging 2 wires into the wall and grabbing both ends.  No GFI is even going to sense that.  

 

The GFI may have detected a path to ground through the pool water, but only if it was installed properly, into a properly designed and grounded system with appropriate wire sizes and placed close enough to the pool that any ground current would flow back to the device to be detected, and not through some other nearby ground path.  And if he did have it all connected and functioning properly, there's a good chance he'd pull it out the next week for all the nuisance shutdowns from other unrelated problems on the line.  

 

I can't count the number of posts I've read from guys reveling in the fact that they can build their dream home in Thailand without interference from the authorities, no expensive architect, no pesky engineer approvals, no time consuming structural or electrical inspections.  This is a tragic lesson in what can happen.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

Impulse

Yes i agree that the episode was recorded on CCTV,and that would appear to be the end of it.However there is the question of what he might have been given to eat,or drink before he ventured out on to the patio.Its very convenient that he 'slipped' outside.The electric shock,may have been an added bonus.

Nothing is what it seems in this country,andwe would be foolish to accept these deaths on face value.There will be no investigation,and the autopsy will simply concur that it was the electric shock that killed him.

I still suspect that there is another party,or maybe two,involved in this opera.
But we will never know.

If the family comes over to collect the body,there may be a little suspicion,but that is all it will ever be

This death is just another shadowy statistic in the list of countless ferangs,who have died this year alone.It would give a certain suspicion if his financial status was proved to be one of considerable wealth.

[Anthony5]

12 hours ago, MiKT said:

Standard Thai electricity supply is 230 VAC and the two wires (Line and Neutral) both carry the same 230 Volts.

 

This really intrigues me, since I measure no voltage at all on my neutral wire when the appliance is not in use.

[Crossy]

5 minutes ago, Anthony5 said:

This really intrigues me, since I measure no voltage at all on my neutral wire when the appliance is not in use.

 

Whilst in general it should be near ground potential he neutral has the possibility to be at any voltage up to the supply voltage. Think what happens if you have an open neutral at your distribution board (or some bright spark has reversed the polarity at your meter), the whole system, neutrals and all will approach 220V and be lethal.

 

UK regulations consider the neutral as a "live" conductor and it should be treated as such.

 

 

[Peterw42]

12 minutes ago, impulse said:

I can't count the number of posts I've read from guys reveling in the fact that they can build their dream home in Thailand without interference from the authorities, no expensive architect, no pesky engineer approvals, no time consuming structural or electrical inspections.  This is a tragic lesson in what can happen.

 

The best one is when people take an appliance to the local handyman to have those pesky earth pins removed from the plug, as it wont fit in some power points.

 

4 minutes ago, Anthony5 said:

 

This really intrigues me, since I measure no voltage at all on my neutral wire when the appliance is not in use.

Yes, I agree. If everything is off, the neutral is not live. Isnt it at the same potential as earth ? If active and neutral are at the same potential there would be no current flow.

[Anthony5]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Whilst in general it should be near ground potential he neutral has the possibility to be at any voltage up to the supply voltage. Think what happens if you have an open neutral at your distribution board (or some bright spark has reversed the polarity at your meter), the whole system, neutrals and all will approach 220V and be lethal.

 

UK regulations consider the neutral as a "live" conductor and it should be treated as such.

 

 

 

 

I understand that the neutral should be treated as live for the above mentioned reasons, but that doesn't mean that the neutral DOES carry 230V, as in my opinion mistakenly quoted by MiKT.

[Crossy]

Let's not get into semantics here, yes the neutral is at or near earth potential, but you won't find me getting hold of one without checking it's dead first.

 

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Let's not get into semantics here, yes the neutral is at or near earth potential, but you won't find me getting hold of one without checking it's dead first.

 

 

They are like snakes, presume they are all deadly

[whatproblem]

21 hours ago, mangolover said:

This I don't get.

Because every month or so someone here gets electrocuted in a swimming pool ,have you ever seen a Thai electrician work here ,they think nothing wrong with twisting wires together and a bit of tape over it

[Bullie]

One thing is for sure, he was not a dutch man. German, perhaps, but definitely not dutch.

 

Also: Any electricity, in the proximity of water is a nono in Thailand. No earthing, you see. Too expensive, they told me. Still made them do it though, in our rental house.

Simple trip switch won' t suffice if there is no earth for the current to flow to!

[Crossy]

49 minutes ago, Bullie said:

Simple trip switch won' t suffice if there is no earth for the current to flow to!

 

An MCB (AKA "a simple trip switch") wouldn't have saved him, earth or no earth. Part of the issue is that the pool water was actually a very good earth

 

An RCD / RCBO could well have saved him (many, many variables) and does NOT need an earth to work correctly.

[Si Thea01]

On ‎19‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 0:01 PM, geriatrickid said:

Wouldn't a normal fuse  prevent such a tragedy?

 

No.

[MiKT]

10 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

An MCB (AKA "a simple trip switch") wouldn't have saved him, earth or no earth. Part of the issue is that the pool water was actually a very good earth

 

An RCD / RCBO could well have saved him (many, many variables) and does NOT need an earth to work correctly.

 

You guys are right about the neutral being dead when no load, but its carrying 230V under load and if you happen to be that load you will be probably be deaded.

 

You can't think that in a two wire set-up that the voltage and current are just on one wire, it needs two wires to make a circuit.

 

 Just grab a couple of bare wires (line and Neutral) and try it. If you are lucky the fuse might blow or the MCB (RCD/RCBO) trip before you die, but you will get a bad shock. I have had one which blew me clear across a kitchen when there was no earth wire and just a fuse for protection. Black and blue bruises all up my arms.

 

Also the 40 ms trip time for an RCD/RCBO etc  may not be quick enough to save you if you fall in a pool. Maybe if you are Houdini or have a really strong heart, but for an older person or a child, it could well take less than 40 ms to kill you, so it probably will not trip in time.

 

Under dry conditions, the resistance offered by the human body may be as high as 100,000 Ohms. Wet or broken skin may drop the body's resistance to 1,000 Ohms, probably even less if you are completely immersed.

 

The actual rating for a 30 mA RCD used to be 200ms, so according to the UK wiring regulations (BS7671) if an RCD is used as supplementary protection against indirect contact it must trip in 40ms at 500% of rated trip current (150mA) - (40 is 1/5th of 200). But I think the Harmonised standards for EU rated devices is now actually 300mA to prevent nuisance tripping with power surges, so it will take 60ms to trip if you fall in the pool.

 

Plus you need to consider that RCD’s RCBO’s actually do not work absolutely consistently every time and if you tested one repeatedly the trip times may well vary quite a lot. Obviously the quality of the device will have an effect too.

 

Anyway, it is just plain stupid to have any electrical device near a pool like this poor guy did. Sitting in a bath with a nice electrical device like a hair drier and dropping it in the water is a guaranteed way of getting deaded. On purpose if you are so disposed, or if you are a TV reader, it will surely be your wife dropping it in for you. 555.

 

Of course having an earth wire is essential safety for all homes and I make sure that I have the earth leakage safety trip device, plus the correct rating MCB's for lighting, power sockets, A/C's and water heaters; each MCB selected for the correct load. eg 10 or 16 Amp for the Lighting circuits, 32 Amp for A/C's. I use as many individual MCB's as I need depending on the load for each circuit. for instance in an average 2 story house I would use one MCB for the upstairs lighting circuit and one for the downstairs lighting circuit. You could just use one for both, but I prefer to have the ability to turn them off individually. I do the same for power, A/C's and water heaters. Also if you have a lot of A/C's on each floor you might like to distribute the load over several MCB's.

 

But I am correct about simple fuses, the fuse wire just burns out under a short circuit load and as I said, the rating in Amps being related to the wire size (simple Ohms law) so fuses (glass encased or fuse wire if it’s a really old set-up) need replacing when they trip. But MCB's do not burn out and need replacing, they trip and can be reset  - NB they might burn out if subject to a big load like an lightning impulse or getting filled with water in a leak as some of mine did recently.

 

NB if you are doing any electrical work in Thailand (or having it done by a local electrician) the estimable Crossy’s site is ESSENTIAL reading.

 

 

 

 

[gdgbb]

On 19/11/2016 at 10:35 AM, mcfish said:

Why the need for an autopsy if they have it on video?

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk
 

 

Because an autopsy can reveal the cause of death, cctv cannot.

[MiKT]

 

I forgot to add to my rant above.

 

How many of you excellent guys and gals who have been sensible enough to install protective trip devices in your homes, remember to press the Test Button to check they are still working at least once a year?

 

Me.........guilty as charged, but at least I eventually remembered to test some RCD's that I installed recently.

 

I don't know how to make myself remember to do anything regularly, but some of you might know how to use calendars properly and should add this tiny one second job to your list of things to do at Christmas, Idd, Yom Kippur, your birthday, etc.

 

Also good to test the trip on your bathroom water heaters once in a while.

 

Rant over. Good luck to all who mess with electricity in LoS.

 

 

[ironbark]

On 11/19/2016 at 2:35 PM, mcfish said:

Why the need for an autopsy if they have it on video?

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk
 

Properly done an autopsy might show other factors . why did he fall in the first place, heart attack, stroke, drugs, alcohol.

Good point about high voltage light near the pool tho. If it had been installed by a "qualified" electrician then they should have known better. A full investigation like a western style coronial enquiry may lead to changes in safety codes or procedures but I doubt it, this is Thailand.

[chicowoodduck]

Just like all the balcony jumpers....he was pushed!!!???

[MiKT]

7 hours ago, ironbark said:

Properly done an autopsy might show other factors . why did he fall in the first place, heart attack, stroke, drugs, alcohol.

Good point about high voltage light near the pool tho. If it had been installed by a "qualified" electrician then they should have known better. A full investigation like a western style coronial enquiry may lead to changes in safety codes or procedures but I doubt it, this is Thailand.

 

Even the UK regulations 17th Edition (ie latest version) do not tell you not to put hanging lights near a pool that you could drag in with you if you sipped and fell in, so its not really the direct fault of the installer that could be improved by legislation.

 

Actually that I am wrong here. The UK regulations (and other standards including the Thai electrical standards) do have certain "step-and touch" distances (eg 2.5m) where even a tall person cannot touch an electrical object and say the water in a pool (unless the electrical fitting is especially insulated - like in-pool lights).

 

It seems self evident not to put hanging lights near your pool, but only with hindsight. But I think the guy was very unlucky and we should all take note of what can happen.

 

But perhaps it was in fact what is known in safety terms as an "indirect cause of death". As I understand it, he fell, grabbed a shrub and the shrubbery pulled the light in with it. However, I suppose one could argue (as an American lawyer would) that the light should still not have been on lead long enough to go into the pool and the shrub should not have been where it was.

 

Maybe if it becomes law that we all do complete risk assessments of any potential dangers in our homes on say a daily basis, taking into account loose fittings, things you can trip over like brooms, kids, toys and cats, etc.; do away with all ladders, outlaw balconies and standing on chairs or breaking into our own homes by smashing windows with our elbows, then accidents will become less and we will always know it was the Thai wife who pushed the Farang.

 

Ain't gona happen, we all need to look out for ourselves and families.