Thailand's Return to Democracy May Raise Tension

[tropo]

On 8/11/2017 at 10:32 AM, SouthernDelight said:

What restrictions are you currently experiencing?

I experienced a house raid by army, police and council officers WITHOUT a search warrant. If army personnel are present, search warrants are not required....You'd be surprised how little rights you have here right now. People can even live peacefully in Communist countries as long as they behave themselves.

[metisdead]

A post commenting on moderation has been removed. 

[Baerboxer]

On 8/11/2017 at 8:26 PM, JAG said:

if I may butt in, as one who consistently argues for a "return to democracy".

The first, and fundamental step, is to return to selecting the government through the ballot box in a free election. It doesn't really matter which system, variants of proportional representation or the "first past the post system", as long as the result broadly reflects the will of the electorate, and as long as that result is respected by all elements within society, irrespective of wealth (class) and political leaning.

 

Thailand has, in theory, all the other requirements of a democratic government, a codified judicial system, a potentially  effective civil service, proper political parties, a comprehensive broadcasting system and press and umpteen constitutions on file to choose from. They are all bedeviled of course by corruption, and that corruption will only be removed by the insistence of the people, and that means by an elected government. Under a consistent run of elected governments, with personal and political freedoms these institutions can begin to function as thy should, and provide the checks and balances which worked poorly before, and simply don't exist at present.

 

Now I've been accused as touting elections as a "panacea". Thy are not, but they are the first step in the process of producing a robust democratic government. Without them, and without them being free and unfettered, no further steps can be taken.

 

One further point, elections will end the effective disenfranchisement of a large proportion (arguably a majority) and a geographically concentrated one, of the people of this country. This will stop the inevitable growing disenchantment with the  rule by  a small group with particular influence and wealth, centered in Bangkok. Disenchantment which I am convinced could if not halted result in revolt. Revolt which in my opinion, as a retired  professional soldier, the army is quite frankly unlikely to be able to defeat. 

 

That's what I mean by a "return to democracy". The last paragraph is why I believe that it is a matter of urgency.

 

Don't disagree with that JAGGY boy.

 

But the one thing missing is a crop of politicians willing to take that on that aren't self serving or serving a non elected high interest group or individual.

 

Where and when do you think they might be seen?

[Baerboxer]

On 8/11/2017 at 10:00 PM, sawadee1947 said:

there was a mistake:

It's so good to have you in this forum. When I

have your age I hope having achieved your wisdom. Please let us take part in your qualified outpourings for ever

 

Sarcasm the lowest form of wit. And you're wits are pretty low.

[zzaa09]

56 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Don't disagree with that JAGGY boy.

 

But the one thing missing is a crop of politicians willing to take that on that aren't self serving or serving a non elected high interest group or individual.

 

Where and when do you think they might be seen?

Hard pressed to believe this will ever come about as long as the very influential controlling interest group have a say.

 

An overwhelming percentage of people clearly haven't any clear ideas regarding contemporary Thai history and how things work.

Edited August 16, 2017 by zzaa09

[JimGant]

Quote

I experienced a house raid by army, police and council officers WITHOUT a search warrant. If army personnel are present, search warrants are not required....You'd be surprised how little rights you have here right now. People can even live peacefully in Communist countries as long as they behave themselves.

And you too can live peacefully in Thailand, if you behave yourself. So, exactly what kind of shenanigans were you up to to cause a raid on your house? I'm pretty confident the other 99% of farangs reading this haven't been visited by the police or army for any activity they may have had, political or otherwise. Maybe your wife's a seditionist -- bad choice in this political climate. Anyway, quit causing problems for the rest of the farang community. If you have a political beef with the current system, just butt out, and go back home. Or, find a new home. Don't add your politics as another reason -- e.g., indigent backpackers and retirees -- for the government to add additional barriers to our happy retirement situation.

 

I, and all my other farang acquaintances, are quite happy with the current system, which now allows for a mob-free existence -- and a relatively harmonious existence (at least for the average guy on the street, but maybe not necessarily the ivory tower university prof, or the agitated farmer in the Northeast). And Prayut seems to have the best interests of the Thai people at heart. Sure, the little guy may remain submerged -- no amount of life preservers, from whatever government, can rescue these outliers. But the Prayut government seems to be doing its best -- preserving previous government's best efforts, and adding their own. And dealing the best it can with corruption (I certainly hope this is the case......) -- although corruption in Thailand seems to be woven into the fabric, whatever type government holds office. 

 

Certainly, in some cases, a benevolent dictator can be better for a country than a democratically elected bozo -- where the electorate didn't have the smarts -- or knowledge -- to make the right decision (read: Trump). That a managed democracy, akin to Singapore's, is ahead for Thailand may just be a workable solution for "good" government in Thailand. The key is getting the right people in the right offices -- and a democratic system gives no assurance of that happening.

 

And, yeah, like a previous left leaning poster, I too am a retired Air Force officer. Fortunately, I didn't go to UC Berkeley.

 

 

[heybruce]

21 minutes ago, JimGant said:

And you too can live peacefully in Thailand, if you behave yourself. So, exactly what kind of shenanigans were you up to to cause a raid on your house? I'm pretty confident the other 99% of farangs reading this haven't been visited by the police or army for any activity they may have had, political or otherwise. Maybe your wife's a seditionist -- bad choice in this political climate. Anyway, quit causing problems for the rest of the farang community. If you have a political beef with the current system, just butt out, and go back home. Or, find a new home. Don't add your politics as another reason -- e.g., indigent backpackers and retirees -- for the government to add additional barriers to our happy retirement situation.

 

I, and all my other farang acquaintances, are quite happy with the current system, which now allows for a mob-free existence -- and a relatively harmonious existence (at least for the average guy on the street, but maybe not necessarily the ivory tower university prof, or the agitated farmer in the Northeast). And Prayut seems to have the best interests of the Thai people at heart. Sure, the little guy may remain submerged -- no amount of life preservers, from whatever government, can rescue these outliers. But the Prayut government seems to be doing its best -- preserving previous government's best efforts, and adding their own. And dealing the best it can with corruption (I certainly hope this is the case......) -- although corruption in Thailand seems to be woven into the fabric, whatever type government holds office. 

 

Certainly, in some cases, a benevolent dictator can be better for a country than a democratically elected bozo -- where the electorate didn't have the smarts -- or knowledge -- to make the right decision (read: Trump). That a managed democracy, akin to Singapore's, is ahead for Thailand may just be a workable solution for "good" government in Thailand. The key is getting the right people in the right offices -- and a democratic system gives no assurance of that happening.

 

And, yeah, like a previous left leaning poster, I too am a retired Air Force officer. Fortunately, I didn't go to UC Berkeley.

 

Am I the left leaning poster?  Do you think only a leftist would oppose military autocracy (I'm not allowed to use the proper term)?

 

As a retired Air Force officer, who took an oath to defend the constitution of the United States of America, how can you be so nonchalant about a military that deposes elected governments and treats constitutions like toilet paper?

 

Yes, things are quiet now, repression is good for that.  However I see no evidence that "Prayut seems to have the best interests of the Thai people at heart."  I also am not aware of any case of a "benevolent dictator" being better for a country than a democratically elected one.  Democracies often go bad.  Military rule always goes bad.  In addition, Thailand is not Singapore, and the false democracy of the military constitution is nothing like the "managed democracy" of Singapore.

 

You and the other defenders of the junta have a "not my problem" attitude about the military government.  Repressive military rule suits your short term needs in Thailand, so to hell with the Thai people and their future.  Some of us actually care about the people we've met in Thailand and want them and their country to have a better future.  Military rule won't provide a better future for anyone but the generals.

Edited August 16, 2017 by heybruce

[sawadee1947]

4 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Sarcasm the lowest form of wit. And you're wits are pretty low.

says who?

[sawadee1947]

4 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Sarcasm the lowest form of wit. And you're wits are pretty low.

I want to go sure that even you in particular will understand.....It was only for you Mr. Beerboxer

[bheard]

Actually the return to democracy will not happen for a very long time, at least 20 years, so he need not worry.

[zzaa09]

16 minutes ago, bheard said:

Actually the return to democracy will not happen for a very long time, at least 20 years, so he need not worry.

Plausible.

 

Oh well, not like the first time these things have occurred in Thailand's recent history.

[tomta]

On 8/12/2017 at 11:23 AM, SouthernDelight said:

Well, I personally would expect that legislated rules are enforced alas they can be interpreted in other respects or ways by an administrative unit of government - this is widely known but certainly not unique to a specific government/country.

I am sure you've overcome already these perceived inconvenience(s) and are judicious for not letting these diminish your well-earned life-style.

I personally have no complains nor am experiencing any displeasures.

As a guest to a country I ascertain to recognize and earnestly respect cultural particulars. And if a country extends graciously its hospitality and granting long-term stay I feel that it is not my place to comment publicly on their internal affairs.

You just did comment.

[JimGant]

Quote

However I see no evidence that "Prayut seems to have the best interests of the Thai people at heart." 

Well, he certainly has tried to fill his cabinet with able folks. His appointing Somkid to office -- a Thaksin populist who just happens to be extremely smart when it comes to helping the Thai people -- shows good judgment on Prayut's part. And I really haven't seen any negatives during his time in office, either him or his associates.

 

If Prayut runs in the next election, and wins, good. I can't imagine anyone else potentially running against him that would be any better. Abhasit? Nice guy, but he had his chance and failed. Any red shirt contenders of note? None that come to mind.

 

And, hey, being a four star general really does give you a leg up on others, in terms of smarts and leadership. Look at the US today -- two 4-star generals as Chief of Staff and Defense Dept Sec'y; 4-star Chairman JCS; 3-star NSC head. Then there's Washington, Ike, Marshall, to name a few successful leaders as civilians. Yeah, they never staged a coup -- yet. But give Trump a little while longer.

 

No, Thailand is doing just fine under Prayut. That he's there illegitimately -- so what, as long as it's not to the detriment of Thailand, which it isn't.

 

Quote

Some of us actually care about the people we've met in Thailand and want them and their country to have a better future

Yeah, me too. Prayut's my man.

 

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

Well, he certainly has tried to fill his cabinet with able folks. His appointing Somkid to office -- a Thaksin populist who just happens to be extremely smart when it comes to helping the Thai people -- shows good judgment on Prayut's part. And I really haven't seen any negatives during his time in office, either him or his associates.

 

If Prayut runs in the next election, and wins, good. I can't imagine anyone else potentially running against him that would be any better. Abhasit? Nice guy, but he had his chance and failed. Any red shirt contenders of note? None that come to mind.

 

And, hey, being a four star general really does give you a leg up on others, in terms of smarts and leadership. Look at the US today -- two 4-star generals as Chief of Staff and Defense Dept Sec'y; 4-star Chairman JCS; 3-star NSC head. Then there's Washington, Ike, Marshall, to name a few successful leaders as civilians. Yeah, they never staged a coup -- yet. But give Trump a little while longer.

 

No, Thailand is doing just fine under Prayut. That he's there illegitimately -- so what, as long as it's not to the detriment of Thailand, which it isn't.

 

Yeah, me too. Prayut's my man.

 

"And, hey, being a four star general really does give you a leg up on others, in terms of smarts and leadership."

 

Right..., earning the rank of four star general is the same in Thailand as in the US.  Are you that clueless?

 

Quote

Some of us actually care about the people we've met in Thailand and want them and their country to have a better future

"Yeah, me too. Prayut's my man."

 

Such an obvious, shameless, out of context quote causes me to question all that you claim about yourself.

Edited August 16, 2017 by heybruce

[jayboy]

 

 Maybe we should listen what the Thai people have to say - if they are allowed to e xpress an opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

[Get Real]

As the threat of democracy here always may raise.

[candide]

7 hours ago, JimGant said:

Well, he certainly has tried to fill his cabinet with able folks. His appointing Somkid to office -- a Thaksin populist who just happens to be extremely smart when it comes to helping the Thai people -- shows good judgment on Prayut's part. And I really haven't seen any negatives during his time in office, either him or his associates.

 

If Prayut runs in the next election, and wins, good. I can't imagine anyone else potentially running against him that would be any better. Abhasit? Nice guy, but he had his chance and failed. Any red shirt contenders of note? None that come to mind.

 

And, hey, being a four star general really does give you a leg up on others, in terms of smarts and leadership. Look at the US today -- two 4-star generals as Chief of Staff and Defense Dept Sec'y; 4-star Chairman JCS; 3-star NSC head. Then there's Washington, Ike, Marshall, to name a few successful leaders as civilians. Yeah, they never staged a coup -- yet. But give Trump a little while longer.

 

No, Thailand is doing just fine under Prayut. That he's there illegitimately -- so what, as long as it's not to the detriment of Thailand, which it isn't.

 

Yeah, me too. Prayut's my man.

 

Please be more precise. Just choose one of the following topics:

- less corrupt people in power?

- more efficient economic policy?

- less cryonism and nepotism?

- better protected civil rights such as freedom of opinion and freedom of speech?

- more accountable government?

- more transparency (for example about public procurements)?

- more independent justice?

 

Please  choose one of these topics and explain us precisely why it is better with the junta. We are eager to read your arguments!

[zzaa09]

59 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

 Maybe we should listen what the Thai people have to say - if they are allowed to e xpress an opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

As they can only have an opinion or comment throughout underground and closed circles....