Breaking: French man released without charge after allegations of rape from British teen

[sanemax]

Just now, BritManToo said:

That didn't happen in Thailand.

Handing her ID to reception as she walks to the room is the only form of consent needed here.

That is for prostitutes, if you are paying them to have sex.

Different for non prostitutes .

If a woman lost her hotel room key and you said that she could wait in your room until her friend got back with a key , would that give you the right to have sex with her, even if she refused ?

[janclaes47]

14 hours ago, darksidedog said:

This does show very clearly the problem with the police parading everyone they arrest and making claims of evidence and guilt, when in fact they have none.

 

The only difference is that if it concerned a Thai his name would be withheld and his face hidden in pictures, where here where it concerns a foreigner, his pictures and private details are plastered all over the internet.

[BritManToo]

5 minutes ago, sanemax said:

If a woman lost her hotel room key and you said that she could wait in your room until her friend got back with a key

Why would I do that?

There are only two reasons for a woman to be in my room, 1) she's cleaning it, 2) she's having sex with me.

[impulse]

45 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

"Since when do you pay bail and get released without charge?"

When it turns out that there is no evidence against you, that's when.

 

"So this 12,000EUR appears to be just a bribe to allow him to leave without being charged".

It may appear so in your mind but there is no indication anywhere that that is reality.

 

Maybe no proof that it was a bribe, but 450,000 baht can buy a lot of forgiveness in LOS. 

 

Until there's a definitive declaration that he got the money back, I'm skeptical.  He wouldn't be the first perpetrator to buy his way out of Thailand.  It will be interesting to see what happens next.

 

Edit:  And I don't have a clue what happened here, but she wouldn't be the first young, inexperienced traveler to pal around with someone she just met on holiday, oblivious to his intentions until it's too late.

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by impulse

[KittenKong]

"Since when do you pay bail and get released without charge?"

When it turns out that there is no evidence against you, that's when.
"So this 12,000EUR appears to be just a bribe to allow him to leave without being charged".
It may appear so in your mind but there is no indication anywhere that that is reality.

No, you only pay bail if you have been arrested and charged. If you are not charged you are free to go.
And if the charge against this man was dropped for whatever reason the bail deposit should be refunded. If it was refunded then he hasn't paid it and so it should not be mentioned. And if it wasn't refunded then it can only be a bribe/fine. But given that he wasn't charged it cant be a fine. So it's a bribe.

[seajae]

I remember waking up next to a girl with a brilliant body when I was 18 and not having a clue where I was, unfortunately she could have had a nicer face but man, those boobs and hips,  then I had to try to remove my arm without waking her. I actually did manage it and did a runner, outside I found my mate asleep in his car so he had driven us to her place, was very thankful he had waited, too much alcohol can do some weird sh*t to us which I found out many times over many years which is why I rarely drink these days. Females will always get the benefit of the doubt, maybe if she was really out of it she just wanted to try black but on waking sh*t herself or he did slip something in her drink, no one will ever know

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by seajae

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

No, you only pay bail if you have been arrested and charged. If you are not charged you are free to go.
And if the charge against this man was dropped for whatever reason the bail deposit should be refunded. If it was refunded then he hasn't paid it and so it should not be mentioned. And if it wasn't refunded then it can only be a bribe/fine. But given that he wasn't charged it cant be a fine. So it's a bribe.

 

Or, his bail could have been 120,000 Euros and the 12,000 he spent is the fee from the bail bondsman and may also include attorney and other fees.  As always, lots of open questions left by the standard of reporting...whether it's a translation issue, I have no clue.

 

 

[maximillian]

14 hours ago, ThreeEyedRaven said:

While I agree with that, there have been a number of occasions in my past, when I have woken up beside a girl and have no idea who she is, or where I met her. That demon drink swings both ways. 

I never complained though.

Happened to me as well. Then I didn't remember if we've had sex or not. Shame...

[Bluespunk]

14 hours ago, robblok said:

The evidence I seen was inconclusive she was walking with the guy to his hotel (could be pushed by wrist was not clear from the images). So obviously the cops interviewed the people in the bar and decided the girl went with the guy out of her own free wil. 

 

Poor guy arrested and made a lot of cost, it can be dangerous being a guy. Though one would think he would get his bail back after no charges have been laid. 

 

Would be interested to hear more about this as this still does not explain much. I would certainly be pissed of if this happened to me. Better not take any girls back to your hotel if they have been drinking. 

If you meet a girl on a night out and the girl is drunk, then consent cannot be given.

 

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

If you meet a girl on a night out and the girl is drunk, then consent cannot be given.

 

Officially, now think of what happens all around the world unofficially.  I understand your point and would never take a dead drunk woman to my home / hotel for sex. But we have to stay realistic about this about what is the law and what happens. Taking a dead drunk woman with you and then having sex with her unconscious body is rape IMHO. But where do you draw the line, alcohol wise. Do the same standards as operating a vehicle apply or are there different limits, I mean how do you practically protect yourself. Besides even if a woman is not drunk and afterwards she says its rape how can you prove it was with consent. 

[AGareth2]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

Taking a dead drunk woman with you

even more so a drunk dead woman

[Bluespunk]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Officially, now think of what happens all around the world unofficially.  I understand your point and would never take a dead drunk woman to my home / hotel for sex. But we have to stay realistic about this about what is the law and what happens. Taking a dead drunk woman with you and then having sex with her unconscious body is rape IMHO. But where do you draw the line, alcohol wise. Do the same standards as operating a vehicle apply or are there different limits, I mean how do you practically protect yourself. Besides even if a woman is not drunk and afterwards she says its rape how can you prove it was with consent. 

I can only think for myself.

 

If a woman I have met is clearly drunk [not excessively, but enough to cloud judgement], then anything, evenly vaguely sexual, cannot be consensual. 

 

As to drink driving, one alcoholic drink is one drink too many.

[robblok]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

I can only think for myself.

 

If a woman I have met is clearly drunk [not excessively, but enough to cloud judgement], then anything, evenly vaguely sexual, cannot be consensual. 

 

As to drink driving, one alcoholic drink is one drink too many.

Sounds logical to me.

 

I don't have experience on this field as I am not the bar type and often in long relations so it would not really happen to me.

[FitnessHealthTravel]

12,000 euro to get off a rape charge?

[saminoz]

3 hours ago, sammieuk1 said:

Maybe he is a liar and shock horror the police screwed up the evidence and guess the truth will never be known now he has hopped it.

12,000 Euros can buy a lot of police incompetence in Thailand.

[terryofcrete]

15 hours ago, Sheryl said:

More to the point, don't bring back a woman or girl who is so drunk and/or drugged that she won't remember how she got there come morning.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

A Farang woman .. especially... 

[StefanBBK]

1 hour ago, Just Weird said:

Why?

in case BIB's change their mind... I would go home quickly. 

[Gillyflower]

If I remember rightly Mbouka (aged 26) is a policeman himself.  Also I do remember that the girl was in the bar with her girlfriend and the GF's boyfriend.  Also that it was quite a time before she actually went to the police.  We never heard what the friends had to say.  One would think that if she was so stoned, they wouldn't have let her go.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

If you meet a girl on a night out and the girl is drunk, then consent cannot be given.

As far as I know this is law in some western countries, but we are in Asia.

Not sure there is any 'informed consent' laws in Thailand, but happy for you to point me to such a law.

 

Canada had a recent ruling that drunk women can give consent.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39158023

"A person would be incapable of giving consent if she is unconscious or is so intoxicated by alcohol or drugs as to be incapable of understanding or perceiving the situation that presents itself," Justice Lenehan said, "This does not mean, however, that an intoxicated person cannot give consent to sexual activity. Clearly, a drunk can consent."

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by BritManToo

[JMonroe]

The fact that the Thai police don't have enough evidence to charge the man doesn't mean he didn't force himself on the girl or rape her. He may very well have done exactly that, or not.

 

I don't know what actually happened, and neither does anyone else posting here.

 

But some people here are so sure they know the truth.

[impulse]

39 minutes ago, terryofcrete said:

15 hours ago, Sheryl said:

More to the point, don't bring back a woman or girl who is so drunk and/or drugged that she won't remember how she got there come morning.

A Farang woman .. especially... 

 

Not that uncommon for a blackout drinker to be perfectly ambulatory, and look no worse off than a dozen other nearby women (or men), then forget just about everything that happened after a certain point in the evening. 

 

That's one of the symptoms of a problem with alcohol: blackout drinking.  Not on the same scale as a rape, but I was in disbelief at some of my behavior that I didn't recall before I took the oath in 1988.  Until it was corroborated by quite a few in attendance, and more than once in my drinking career.  Thank God they didn't have smartphone cameras or CCTV back then.

 

Edit:  My point being that they may both be telling the truth as they remember it.  Heavy on the "may".  Or maybe not.  It looks like we'll never know, unless there's some CCTV found, and if I were the guy, I'd be out of the country by now.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by impulse

[beowolf2012]

If you really want a girl home to your hotel and she is drunk. Then make a record with your voice recorder. If you not have voice recorder on your mobile phone, then download the app.  after 2 - 3 week if not have problems then delete the sound file.

???

Edited June 5, 2018 by beowolf2012

[Berkshire]

2 hours ago, sanemax said:

Going back to someones hotel room , doesnt mean that you consent to having sex .

   Two different things

Obviously.  But if I was the guy's lawyer, I'd certainly be pushing that narrative.  "Girl goes willingly to the guy's hotel room late in the evening after a night of heavy drinking."  A reasonable jury may wonder why if not for consensual sex.  Regardless, I'm certainly not dismissing her claim.  My question is where the freak were her "friends" when all this was happening?

[Bluespunk]

50 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

As far as I know this is law in some western countries, but we are in Asia.

Not sure there is any 'informed consent' laws in Thailand, but happy for you to point me to such a law.

 

Canada had a recent ruling that drunk women can give consent.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39158023

"A person would be incapable of giving consent if she is unconscious or is so intoxicated by alcohol or drugs as to be incapable of understanding or perceiving the situation that presents itself," Justice Lenehan said, "This does not mean, however, that an intoxicated person cannot give consent to sexual activity. Clearly, a drunk can consent."

 

Clearly I disagree with this judge.

 

As do others in the article you quote

 

Also from the article

 

''CBC reported that the judiciary committee has received at least 10 complaints about Justice Lenehan, but that provincial court matters are out of its jurisdiction. The prosecution said it will review his ruling before deciding whether to appeal.

This is not the first time questions have been raised about how a Canadian court interprets sexual consent.

Alberta Justice Robin Camp could find himself removed from the bench after he questioned why a sex-assault complainant did not "keep (her) knees together".

 

Drunk means no consent.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Bluespunk

[Media1]

17 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

d he forget to let her sign the "yes I want" contract?

YES please. When ever possible

[Media1]

15 hours ago, poanoi said:

is the bail refunded or ?

No it's Thailand

[Ron19]

A flame/troll post has been removed.

[Dogmatix]

Who knows whether the girl woke up in the morning and decided she had made a horrible error of judgement that could somehow be erased by filing rape charges (kiss and tell) or whether she was so plastered she didn't know what happened until after the event and could not be construed as giving her consent.  If she could prove the latter case in her home country, she would have a case but less likely in Thailand.  In the case of the evil man from Krabi who raped a Dutch girl, the authorities initially declined to take any action against the rapist on the grounds that she left the bar with him of her volition, despite the fact that she was badly beaten up by him and raped by the side of the road before being abandoned there with torn clothing.  It was only after the famous video made by girl's father that they decided to take action.   

 

At least there is no discrimination against foreign women in the way Thai police and courts handle rape cases.  Thai women are raped in large numbers on a daily basis, often by people they know.  Usually nothing happens because the women know what to expect from male chauvinist police and prosecutors and feel too ashamed to report the crime.  At least Thai police went through the motions of investigating the English girl's charges . They probably felt prejudiced against the guy because he is black but couldn't come up with a case anyway.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Dogmatix

[Sheryl]

Who knows whether the girl woke up in the morning and decided she had made a horrible error of judgement that could somehow be erased by filing rape charges (kiss and tell) or whether she was so plastered she didn't know what happened until after the event and could not be construed as giving her consent.  If she could prove the latter case in her home country, she would have a case but less likely in Thailand.  In the case of the evil man from Krabi who raped a Dutch girl, the authorities initially declined to take any action against the rapist on the grounds that she left the bar with him of her volition, despite the fact that she was badly beaten up by him and raped by the side of the road before being abandoned there with torn clothing.  It was only after the famous video made by girl's father that they decided to take action.   
 
At least there is no discrimination against foreign women in the way Thai police and courts handle rape cases.  Thai women are raped in large numbers on a daily basis, often by people they know.  Usually nothing happens because the women know what to expect from male chauvinist police and prosecutors and feel too ashamed to report the crime.  At least Thai police went through the motions of investigating the English girl's charges . They probably felt prejudiced against the guy because he is black but couldn't come up with a case anyway.

No way does a woman who wakes up regretting her action then file rape charges as a solution. What she wants in such a situation is to put it behind her, have as few people know as possible, not turn it into an ongoing saga which she will be questioned about extensively and will become widely known.

For sure she believed she had been drugged and taken advantage of. What we have no way of knowing is whether she is correct or jumped to a wrong conclusion because she could not really remember.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[oldrunner]

Well I'm sure it was date drug BUT it so very dark in the room I didn't know who was doing what to whom.