simple earth

[Kwasaki]

Had a another electrician look at previous electricians work which I thought was Ok for Thailand, he said the wiring and plug points should be 3 ply wire & a 3 plug point. 

To make it simple a basic sketch of what's done, . 

Has it got to be re-done.? 

 

[Crossy]

Looks OK as far as it goes, provided you are only going to use Class-2 (double-insulated) appliances.

 

If you want to use Class-1 appliances (most white goods, desktop computers, water heaters, aircon) these MUST have an earth via a 3 core cable (and 3-pin plug if not hard wired).

 

Note that if you don't yet have a permanent supply you will need the 3-pin outlets and an incoming RCD in order to pass the "inspection" for a permanent meter.

 

 Are you sure the incomer is 8mm?

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

Looks OK as far as it goes, provided you are only going to use Class-2 (double-insulated) appliances.

 

If you want to use Class-1 appliances (most white goods, desktop computers, water heaters, aircon) these MUST have an earth via a 3 core cable (and 3-pin plug if not hard wired).

 

Note that if you don't yet have a permanent supply you sswill need the 3-pin outlets and an incoming RCD in order to pass the "inspection" for a permanent meter.

 

 Are you sure the incomer is 8mm?

Thanks Crossy need your help but get back tomorrow, don't like using mobile, the girls have hijacked my computer. ?

[Kwasaki]

11 hours ago, Crossy said:

 Are you sure the incomer is 8mm?

8mm ?  Dunno for sure looks like it, there's 2 size single cables on the farmhouse meter incoming it's smaller one will check properly later,  I'm sorting my tools out now.

The old  farmhouse has a meter a Chang switch and nothing else. ?

It is a new build 3 GF terraced apartments and waiting for PEA to meter them.

My rough sketch is of only one but all three are same.

Just added to previous sketch if I do this will it be OK then, thanks.

 

 

[Crossy]

NO, NO, NO!!!!

 

You MUST power your 3-pin outlet from the CU, what you have shown has no over-current protection whatever!

 

Replacing your 2-pin outlet with a 3-pin and adding a single (green) wire back to the CU earth bar is the correct solution.

 

The RCD is in the correct location although you should be able to get one that replaces the main incoming breaker in the CU ?

 

EDIT Some photos of the CU with the lid off will help in determining your best solution for a safe installation at a sensible cost.

 

EDIT 2 If there is no white goods, water heater or aircon then you MAY get away with 2-pin outlets for local occupancy. The RCD is an absolute. Get the GF to talk to the PEA inspectors to check their actual requirements.

 

[Kwasaki]

8 minutes ago, Crossy said:

NO, NO, NO!!!!

 

You MUST power your 3-pin outlet from the CU, what you have shown has no over-current protection whatever!

 

Replacing your 2-pin outlet with a 3-pin and adding a single (green) wire back to the CU earth bar is the correct solution.

 

The RCD is in the correct location although you should be able to get one that replaces the main incoming breaker in the CU ?

 

EDIT Some photos of the CU with the lid off will help in determining your best solution for a safe installation at a sensible cost.

 

OK thanks will do just off now.

Yeah see my mistake this is written layout of whats been done,

It goes inline at mo like ---

Chang switch - to - CU earthed to steel frame with 50 / 32/ 20 RCB's - from CU - 3 runs of 2 core 2.5 cable to 3 sockets of 2 pin type from 32 RCB - and from CU - 5 runs of  2 core 1.5 cable to fluorescent tube lights with intervening wall switches. Earth rod connection to all interconnecting steel frame as drawings.

 

Looks like a lot of changes to make Mrs will be pleased I think I'll go on holiday. ?

[Crossy]

Running outlets on a 32A MCB and 2.5 cable - NO! (largest MCB should be 20A).

 

What size breakers are on the lighting circuits?

 

Add the RCD at the front and ground wires to outlets in areas that may see Class-1 appliances.

 

But your lady should still speak to PEA.

 

[bankruatsteve]

I urge you to install enough grounded power outlets so that the occupants will not need to use those terrible extension wheels.  Even if you have grounded outlets, an extension that does not incorporate ground defeats the purpose.

[wayned]

2 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

I urge you to install enough grounded power outlets so that the occupants will not need to use those terrible extension wheels.

I can guarantee you that there will never be enough!  You will always find a place where you should have put another one!

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

EDIT 2 If there is no white goods, water heater or aircon then you MAY get away with 2-pin outlets for local occupancy. The RCD is an absolute. Get the GF to talk to the PEA inspectors to check their actual requirements.

Many thanks for your expertise and time mate.

I should of got involved more but stopped when the build and roof was finished the workman hate me being there.

 

It's a long story from the start but the studio apartments were built to let as a basic unit, front & back entrance with bathroom, waste outlets, lights & power sockets fitted.

 

Any air-cons or washing machine, white goods as you say were to be installed by tenants if required.

 

I will have to get involved again now before my wife wastes more of her money listening the local labour.

I've got my wife to put PEA on hold till sorted.   

 

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

What size breakers are on the lighting circuits?

20 amp the CU was supplied with MCB's 50 / 32 / 20.

Herewith pretty pictures with comments which I hope help you help me sort the mess. ?

Chang isolator's with 60 amp fuses, I will put a thick wire in neutral position when PEA come and I know which one it is.  

 

Wall Power sockets wired in with 2 core 2.5 cable.

 

2 M copper coated I guess earth rod fixed to buildings interconnected steel frame aprox 500mm above GL.

The 100mm x 100mm steel columns go 2 M into ground

from GL.

 

CU & external cable carrier's.

 

This 1 x 10 is connected from Chang isolator to CU.

 

Standard light switch with breaker switch for water pump at storage tank for use when gov supply is not sufficient.

 

MCB's supplied with CU ......50amp  /  32amp  /  20amp.

 

Brown envelope being prepared for PEA employees retirement fund. ?

 

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

I urge you to install enough grounded power outlets so that the occupants will not need to use those terrible extension wheels.  Even if you have grounded outlets, an extension that does not incorporate ground defeats the purpose.

Thanks Steve,  Yeah but difficult to police tenants we are just trying to keep the units basic and as simple as possible.

[bankruatsteve]

20 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Thanks Steve,  Yeah but difficult to police tenants we are just trying to keep the units basic and as simple as possible.

I hear where you are coming from but a CU for a 1-room unit with a 50a main and 32a and 20a circuit breakers borders on crazy.  And there's no RCD (RCBO).  And there's nothing connected to the ground rod - do they even know what its purpose is?  I'm guessing only 2 outlets installed but a minimum should probably be at least 4 duplex outlets.  Depending where you live, the PEA may not even do an inspection.  TIT

[Kwasaki]

9 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

I hear where you are coming from but a CU for a 1-room unit with a 50a main and 32a and 20a circuit breakers borders on crazy.  And there's no RCD (RCBO).  And there's nothing connected to the ground rod - do they even know what its purpose is?  I'm guessing only 2 outlets installed but a minimum should probably be at least 4 duplex outlets.  Depending where you live, the PEA may not even do an inspection.  TIT

Yeah agree mate there's no rush I'm just trying sort it out with the least cost in mind.

 

I will get RCD units when I know what else is needed in addition to solve the cock up.

 

The full interconnected buildings all steel-frame is connected to the earth-rod maybe it needs more than one dunno haven't been able to do a multi-meter probe earth reading yet.

 

3 basic 2 pin double power sockets to each unit as pix.

 

My fault for not getting involved sooner.

 

The CU came with those mcb's I'm waiting for for info I guess I need a 16amp one, more earth wire and a 3 pin earthed power socket.

 

My wife knows the guy who checks the new builds so as as you say TIT but I still want to make it safe.

[Kwasaki]

Going for RCD 32amp.  16amp MCB.  single Earth wire.  3 pin power socket.

Will see if this will pass as sketch below.

Having looked on site the 3 pin socket earth could go CU but just more hassle than direct to steel-frame.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Kwasaki

[Crossy]

Whoever wired that CU in the photos needs shooting.

 

Rip the lot out and do it properly. Wire it like is shown in the instructions. Or this (you can ignore the Safe-T-Cut if you put an RCD in the CU)

 

 

• Put a 30A fuse in the Chang switch (this is your over-current protection).
• Replace the 50A MCB with a >30A RCD (you likely won't get a 2-pole DIN mount RCBO 2 units wide).
• 20A breaker for the outlets.
• 10A for the lighting.  

 

EDIT If the same "electrician" did the other wiring I strongly suggest ripping the whole lot out and starting again. Who knows what other wonders he's left behind.

 

Oh, and if you're going to use the building steel as a protective conductor, at least connect it to the rod (a self-tapper isn't a connection).

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

Whoever wired that CU in the photos needs shooting.

 

Rip the lot out and do it properly. Wire it like is shown in the instructions. Or this (you can ignore the Safe-T-Cut if you put an RCD in the CU)

 

 

• Put a 30A fuse in the Chang switch (this is your over-current protection).
• Replace the 50A MCB with a >30A RCD (you likely won't get a 2-pole DIN mount RCBO 2 units wide).
• 20A breaker for the outlets.
• 10A for the lighting.  

 

EDIT If the same "electrician" did the other wiring I strongly suggest ripping the whole lot out and starting again. Who knows what other wonders he's left behind.

 

Oh, and if you're going to use the building steel as a protective conductor, at least connect it to the rod (a self-tapper isn't a connection).

OK the CU supplied is nothing like the one in your diagram there's no earthing bar just metal case, so will have to buy new.

 

So to do :-

Change incoming 60 amp Chang isolator live fuse for a 30amp Ok check.

 

16mm core wire to earth rod from CU earth bar.

 

Bolt 16mm earth wire to earth rod nut & bolt.

 

Few questions.

 

Do I still put thick wire in the incoming Chang isolator neutral position where there's a 60amp fuse.?

 

Is the 1 x 10 century cable OK. ?

 

What size mm core is for internal earth.?

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

 

 

[Crossy]

8 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

OK the CU supplied is nothing like the one in your diagram there's no earthing bar just metal case, so will have to buy new.

 

So to do :-

Change incoming 60 amp Chang isolator live fuse for a 30amp Ok check.

 

16mm core wire to earth rod from CU earth bar.

 

Bolt 16mm earth wire to earth rod nut & bolt.

 

Few questions.

 

Do I still put thick wire in the incoming Chang isolator neutral position where there's a 60amp fuse.?

 

Is the 1 x 10 century cable OK. ?

 

What size mm core is for internal earth.?

 

Thanks again.

4

Supplied CU is fine, just wired wrong, use the right hand copper bar as earth, the left as neutral (and remove the link between them). If you have the instructions it should show how to do it.

 

You can use the building steel to connect to the rod, just use a bolted connection and a >10mm wire at both ends. Clean the paint from the steel, re-paint after checking the connection.

 

Nice thick link in the Chang neutral (you could leave the 60A fuse in place with only a 30A in the live).

 

10mm² cable is fine.

 

For the earth to the outlets you should run 2.5mm² green should be easy enough as it's in mini-trunking. It will also give you the chance to check for any other "interesting" wiring.

 

What size meters will you be getting from PEA? One PEA meter per apartment or a whole building meter then individual "landlord" meters?

 

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

Supplied CU is fine

Oh good haven't told Mrs yet,  I understand what to do.

 

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

You can use the building steel to connect to the rod

OK remove self-tapper, get steel and rod shiny and bolt connect 10mm earth wire, understand, test and weather protect later.

 

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

leave the 60A fuse in place with only a 30A in the live

Understand will do that.

 

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

run 2.5mm² green

OK single earth wire 2.5mm understand.

I insisted on external trunking and for water pipe to be external too because anything wrong in future can fix easy.  

 

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 One PEA meter per apartment

Getting 15 / 45 meter supply per apartment because my Mrs won't have any problem if tenants don't pay they get cut off by PEA.

Doing same with water supply.

 

Many thanks again for your help cyberbuddy not such a bad mess to sort out IMO. 

[Crossy]

Sounds like a plan and it shouldn't break the bank.

 

EDIT A thought, is the free electricity for low users still active? IIRC it's only available with a 5/15 meter, with no water heating or aircon a 5/15 would be adequate.

 

[Kwasaki]

8 minutes ago, Crossy said:

A thought, is the free electricity for low users still active? IIRC it's only available with a 5/15 meter, with no water heating or air-con a 5/15 would be adequate.

Still active in Sukhothai province, wife's family next door use 5 / 15 supply in the 6 buildings which their housed and it's free up to a certain amount of units.

There a funny lot,  sometimes when someone is away there's extension cable going in and out of homes. ?

 

5 / 15 supply adequate, that's what I was thinking at first I thought it would make electrics simple and less hassle, maybe that's why the 2 pin and 2 core cable was supplied, dunno.

 

Mrs changed mind to give people a choice of being able to use air-con and heated showers etc if they wanted.

 

The next problem I see is there is not always a water supply it is still disruptive at times where apartments are.

Mrs is getting separate water supplies in, that's OK but using the 1 existing storage tank & water pump, I'm not going to get involved in that. 

 

[Crossy]

Another potential issue I'm afraid.

 

Have PEA agreed to provide separate metering for each apartment? Our PEA office operates a strict "one chanote, one meter" policy. My stepson operates a restaurant, expansion meant the single-phase 15/45 supply was on the limit (it supplies the house too) so he asked for another meter to carry the extra and provide a degree of lighting redundancy. Nope, can not, had to upgrade to 3-phase 15/45 ?

 

You are most wise to stay out of the water supply arrangements ?

 

[worgeordie]

Will things improve when Thai sparkies have to be licensed,?

Regards Worgeordie

[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

Have PEA agreed to provide separate metering for each apartment?

Yes we got 3 separate numbered addresses for each one to avoid 1 meter.

 

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

You are most wise to stay out of the water supply arrangements ?

No one takes notice of stupid falangie but now sorted 3 tanks, 3 pumps, 3 separate water supplies. ?

[Kwasaki]

 

The scenario continues along with my headache.

For ease of getting things done quickly, 2 x 3 pin sockets earthed by 2.5  earth cable to CU earth bar and a 2 pin one socket left as just 2 pin,  guess OK.. ? 

 

Could only find 63amp RCBO that fits the existing CU to replace the 50 amp MCB.

Cannot find 32amp RCD where I live to replace the 50amp MCB in CU.

They say change CU. 

 

Sukhothai Electrical shop say 63amp  RCBO OK so I went to PEA, asked is this 63 amp RCBO OK, they said you must have, so 63 OK instead of 32 OK then, they said you must have, OK time to give up. ? 

 

In CU took out 32 amp MCB and kept 20amp MCB and added a 10amp MCB.

 

Maybe this OK or do I still need a a RCD, getting confused to be honest. ?

 

Edit there is a 3 bar connector at the bottom connecting all 4 live contacts.  

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Kwasaki

[Crossy]

Good start ?

 

The green wire should be on the right hand bar, which will become your earth bar (yes I know it has the incoming neutral on it), that's where your rod should be connected too.

 

Remove the link between the two poles of your RCBO!

 

Post a good image of the markings on the RCBO so we can indicate where to connect everything.

 

[Crossy]

@Kwasaki I can't find a decent image of the Zeberg RCBO on the net, even the Zeberg website isn't much help, did it come with instructions?

 

We need to be certain whether it opens L and N or just L and which terminals are L. Can you post a good image of the diagram on the unit please.

 

Do you have any test gear, multimeter, neon screwdriver or even a bulb and battery?

 

[Kwasaki]

11 hours ago, Crossy said:

Good start ?

 

The green wire should be on the right hand bar, which will become your earth bar (yes I know it has the incoming neutral on it), that's where your rod should be connected too.

 

Remove the link between the two poles of your RCBO!

 

Post a good image of the markings on the RCBO so we can indicate where to connect everything.

 

OK I elected left bar for earth because it has only 3 connections 2nd screw from left holds the bar to the CU, the bar right has 4 connection thought that better, can change easy.

 

The RCBO is not wired, looks like it in pix I just shoved it in for a pix take.

The bus bar is just nipped in existing 20amp MCB.

I replaced 32amp MCB for 10amp one.

 

Will take pix of the RCBO I bought and post later thanks.

 

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

@Kwasaki I can't find a decent image of the Zeberg RCBO on the net, even the Zeberg website isn't much help, did it come with instructions?

 

We need to be certain whether it opens L and N or just L and which terminals are L. Can you post a good image of the diagram on the unit please.

 

Do you have any test gear, multimeter, neon screwdriver or even a bulb and battery?

 

Yeah have neon screwdriver & small multi-meter, going off now to site, more roofing being done so will get back with info later.

[Crossy]

Great.

 

Can you check if, with the switch OFF, you have continuity top to bottom of the RCBO left side, right side or neither. 

 

We will get there eventually ?

 

[bankruatsteve]

13 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Maybe this OK or do I still need a a RCD, getting confused to be honest. ?

 

The RCBO is over-current + RCD so you do not need a separate unit.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

Great.

 

Can you check if, with the switch OFF, you have continuity top to bottom of the RCBO left side, right side or neither. 

 

We will get there eventually ?

 

Here's a closer pix no instructions on box,  will do your test at home.

There's a small diagram on switch don't make sense to me.

I thought feed goes in bottom but some web sites show both, I guess it depends on the make.