UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Patriot1066]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

So there are no Brexiteer millionaires?

Since when we're The Orkneys an elite?

Ooo there are many! We will all feel like millionaires after Brexit !!

 

The main protagonists of the people's vote are predominantly millionaires, and most of their campaign funds come from foreign sources,

 

Orkeneys? Very nice place, if Scotland goes for independence they will try to go it alone from Scotland. But why Orkneys?

[Patriot1066]

4 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

More than 500,000 is a significant number. AFAIK only the anti Iraq war protest has been bigger in U.K. history. Hard to ignore that. Time to call it off and work on more important issues. 

Yes the socialist hoards can certainally get out on nice sunny days. The referendum however was the largest democratic vote in the UK.

 

Actually,  I supported us going to Iraq, but wasn't happy when we got there and Blair didn't send us the correct kit to do the job. Thank god for our American friends who had all the gear, as supported by a Republican Pressident who respected the military, unlike our socialist who really didn't.

 

 

[brucec64]

It's not just about trade, but that is a part of it.
 
Significantly, staying in the EU has its own risks remainers do not like to discuss.
 
A good example is the 39-59 billion they claim we owe.  Who told us that the EU like most Socialist states were running up forward debt?
 
They can't audit their accounts and I think there hasn't been a single year they have.
 
EU trade is running behind the competition of other trading blocks.
 
The EU budget is vastly bigger than their income and getting bigger.
 
The Euro really bennefits Germany who's currency would be far too high if not part of the Euro, but it disadvantages such as Italy who need to devalue their currency and increase borrowing but can't. Obviously Great Britain is not part of the Euro zone, but contaigen will spread if it fails. So distancing ourselves reduces risk.
 
Immigration is considered to high by most outside the liberal elite and has had a negative effect on lower paid staff, as EU citizens leave wage growth is now at its highest for 20 years. So the lies that EU migration peddled by academics is being proved a lie as the facts tell otherwise.
 
Trade deals do not cover services you are very correct, but we send our services all over the world as we are good at it. If the EU try to stop particularly derivative trading America will punning them as they can't really pick on us without having a wider impact. Plus we can retaliate in other ways.
 
The main issues with Brexit is remainers going behind the governments back undermining the negotiating position. In fact most of the elite trying to stop Brexit don't even live in the country or are planning to leave think Soros, Blair, Milliband, and now Cleg. Plus the ineptitude of May in dealing with the EU it was obvious from the start they could not compromise on their four freedoms so we should have just gone down the free trade or WTO route. The WTO route would be better as we import more than we send to them so would make 6-9 billion a year in tariffs alone.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

The issue with Brexiters is a complete lack of understanding on economic issues. Tarrifs are paid by importers i.e. British firms, and passed on to consumers. So you have effectively voted for higher taxes. Nice job!

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[adammike]

1 hour ago, Patriot1066 said:

Yes the socialist hoards can certainally get out on nice sunny days. The referendum however was the largest democratic vote in the UK.

 

Actually,  I supported us going to Iraq, but wasn't happy when we got there and Blair didn't send us the correct kit to do the job. Thank god for our American friends who had all the gear, as supported by a Republican Pressident who respected the military, unlike our socialist who really didn't.

 

 

Tony Blair a socialist! only on planet brexit.

[tebee]

3 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

Yes the socialist hoards can certainally get out on nice sunny days. The referendum however was the largest democratic vote in the UK.

 

Actually,  I supported us going to Iraq, but wasn't happy when we got there and Blair didn't send us the correct kit to do the job. Thank god for our American friends who had all the gear, as supported by a Republican Pressident who respected the military, unlike our socialist who really didn't.

 

 

Labour were noticeably missing in action at the march.

 

Shades of the 30's Germany again 

 

The socialists and communists were not prepared to lift a finger against Hitler in early 30s because they agreed with his objective of destroying the Weimar Republic...

 

Shame we never learn.

[vogie]

6 hours ago, baboon said:

Powerful speeches indeed. However as a northerner myself, I don't see what a Tory government in perpetuity will do for us. They have never looked after us and never will.

When control of 'our' nation reverts to 'our' Parliament, does one honestly expect sudden concern from London and a cascade of investment? I doubt it. No, we will be left for dead.

 

There are plenty of reasons to despise the EU status quo. But for many of us outside the South East, I feel we have a choice between 'Sh!t' and 'Sh!itier'. A paradise unfolded will not come to pass...

Baboon, unfortunately the Labour Party are not a Government in waiting, out of all the Labour cabinet I would struggle to find a decent MP. When Corbyn was elected the majority of the Labour MPs refused to back him and work with him, so what we were left with was the dross, Corbyns ideals are best left to history. 

There are so many good Labour MPs on the back benches, it's such a shame that the members of the Labour party are intent in voting for unalectable Leaders, but they hit the jackpot with this lot, I and many other people would consider Corbyn and co way out of their depth trying to negotiate a brexit deal, do they know what they want, no, they are more split than the Tories.

I am from the North of England too, a proud Yorkshire man, my father was a Sand dancer and have voted Labour all their lives, but I would imagine if they were alive today that they would be embarressed by what Labour has to offer. I have more faith in the Tories at the moment, but as Paul Daniels used to say "not a lot".

[Henryford]

19 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

It's impossible to know what will happen after a genuine brexit - it's always either crystal ball gazing or fear mongering.

 

But I do agree that there should be another referendum on whether to accept the agreed deal - or reject the deal and leave immediately - as sadly, politicians can't be trusted.

What's the point of another vote, the politicians only accept the result if it's the one they want.

[baboon]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Baboon, unfortunately the Labour Party are not a Government in waiting, out of all the Labour cabinet I would struggle to find a decent MP. When Corbyn was elected the majority of the Labour MPs refused to back him and work with him, so what we were left with was the dross, Corbyns ideals are best left to history. 

There are so many good Labour MPs on the back benches, it's such a shame that the members of the Labour party are intent in voting for unalectable Leaders, but they hit the jackpot with this lot, I and many other people would consider Corbyn and co way out of their depth trying to negotiate a brexit deal, do they know what they want, no, they are more split than the Tories.

I am from the North of England too, a proud Yorkshire man, my father was a Sand dancer and have voted Labour all their lives, but I would imagine if they were alive today that they would be embarressed by what Labour has to offer. I have more faith in the Tories at the moment, but as Paul Daniels used to say "not a lot".

A very thoughtful and well-considered reply. Unfortunately, however I find myself in disagreement with a good deal of the content - give me Corbyn and his ilk any day over May, Johnson and Rees-Mogg. I mean the Tories are hardly electable either, as seen by the last election and their marriage of convenience with the DUP.

 

Would Labour do a better job at negotiating Brexit? No, I doubt it. But then Brexit means so many different things to do many different people that whoever is at the helm is simply herding cats.

Edited October 21, 2018 by baboon

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, nauseus said:

So visionary protectionism then?

Nothing like distorted context to try and justify the paranoia.

We are all perfectly aware that for those with a deep rooted hatred of the EU it is brexit at any cost, whatever the resulting damage.

[tebee]

 

There is an imbalance and tribalism concerning Brexit, and it is essentially between those who understand the history, structure, role and value of the EU and those who don't, or don't wish to.

 

I personally am fed up with hearing totally unsubstantiated and highly personified claims about what the EU is and isn't, and what its political ambitions are, and the way that the UK is supposed to be shackled by its membership, when in fact the UK has always had considerable influence in helping to shape the EU to its economic and politcal benefit. 

 

Generally the pro-Brexit side of the argument does not, in my opinion, deserve the respect that is asking for as it is offering nothing but ideological dogma, totally misleading claims about the EU, and no future workable strategy to make the UK better off outside the EU than inside.

 

In short the 'benefits of Brexit' is a 'world is flat' , or 'the world will end on 5th August 2030' proposition - an interesting view which should not be given the credibility of too much discussion, because it is clearly untenable.
 

[nauseus]

56 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

There is an imbalance and tribalism concerning Brexit, and it is essentially between those who understand the history, structure, role and value of the EU and those who don't, or don't wish to.

 

I personally am fed up with hearing totally unsubstantiated and highly personified claims about what the EU is and isn't, and what its political ambitions are, and the way that the UK is supposed to be shackled by its membership, when in fact the UK has always had considerable influence in helping to shape the EU to its economic and politcal benefit. 

 

Generally the pro-Brexit side of the argument does not, in my opinion, deserve the respect that is asking for as it is offering nothing but ideological dogma, totally misleading claims about the EU, and no future workable strategy to make the UK better off outside the EU than inside.

 

In short the 'benefits of Brexit' is a 'world is flat' , or 'the world will end on 5th August 2030' proposition - an interesting view which should not be given the credibility of too much discussion, because it is clearly untenable.
 

OK Tebee, try giving us one of these misleading claims? Don't forget full references.  

[Rimmer]

Some baiting and bickering posts have been removed

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

I personally am fed up with hearing totally unsubstantiated and highly personified claims about what the EU is and isn't, and what its political ambitions are, and the way that the UK is supposed to be shackled by its membership, when in fact the UK has always had considerable influence in helping to shape the EU to its economic and politcal benefit. 

 

Generally the pro-Brexit side of the argument does not, in my opinion, deserve the respect that is asking for as it is offering nothing but ideological dogma, totally misleading claims about the EU, and no future workable strategy to make the UK better off outside the EU than inside.

 

I can't agree Tebee. I seem to be one of the few non-aligned posters on this thread, perhaps the only one. And from the very beginning it has been clear that the distortions and unsubstantiated claims (and insults) are greater on the leave than the remain side (especially the insults).

 

The EU is a protectionist cartel, increasingly encroaching on national sovereignties. No one can seriously doubt this. I have linked many articles from respected sources to support this point of view. Your opinion is your own of course, but your claim that views that differ from yours are unsubstantiated is simply not true.

 

By the way, there is a simple workable strategy outside of the EU - Free Trade. My response to your link to the Government's economic forecast makes that clear. And the EU's intransigence on the "backstop" is pushing us faster in that direction, via "no deal".

 

Of course, there is dogma and ideology on both sides, the EU's being neo-liberal economic policy and ever-closer union; that's why Blair loves it so much. And look where neo-liberalism has got us in the last 10 years: the international financial disaster, austerity, 60% youth unemployment in some EU countries, crisis in the Eurozone, to name just a few.

[My Thai Life]

"For the statistical duplicity in the Chequers Brexit plan, heads should roll" 20 Oct 2018

 

Some here may know the name Peter Lilley, Thatcher’s Trade Secretary who implemented the single market. I’m not sure if anyone on this forum agrees with Chequers, I don’t remember seeing any support for it. Anyway, his article here gives irrefutable reasons for abandoning the single market and Chequers, which he regards as a “mystical re-branding of the single market and a cosmetic repackaging of the status quo” based on deliberate misrepresentation of trade statistics.

 

He advocates a conventional free trade approach (such as Canada). However the EU’s intransigence on the “backstop” seems to pushing us ever closer to “no deal”, which is simply WTO terms for an interim period into Free Trade.

 

I can’t quote the whole thing obviously, but the article is behind a paywall, so here’s a flavour.

 

“As the trade and industry secretary who implemented the original single market programme, I trumpeted its potential benefits.

Indeed, the initial idea was sensible. It involved mutual recognition of each member’s product standards after removing any anti-competitive features.  If it had remained like that I would support us continuing to follow single market rules.

Unfortunately, the single market changed from mutual recognition to centralised, uniform and burdensome regulation.

This helped established firms consolidate their grip on the market by making it harder for newcomers to enter.

So us remaining subject to single market rules, especially new rules they may impose on emerging new technologies where Britain is ahead of Europe - as proposed at Chequers – would be an act of grievous self-harm.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/20/statistical-duplicity-chequers-brexit-plan-heads-should-roll/

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, baboon said:

Powerful speeches indeed. However as a northerner myself, I don't see what a Tory government in perpetuity will do for us. They have never looked after us and never will.

When control of 'our' nation reverts to 'our' Parliament, does one honestly expect sudden concern from London and a cascade of investment? I doubt it. No, we will be left for dead.

 

There are plenty of reasons to despise the EU status quo. But for many of us outside the South East, I feel we have a choice between 'Sh!t' and 'Sh!itier'. A paradise unfolded will not come to pass...

This is a cross party effort about the EU. It's not about promoting an endless Tory reign.

[welovesundaysatspace]

7 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

The referendum however was the largest democratic vote in the UK.

No, it wasn’t. 

 

7 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

Actually,  I supported us going to Iraq, but wasn't happy when we got there and Blair didn't send us the correct kit to do the job. Thank god for our American friends who had all the gear, as supported by a Republican Pressident who respected the military, unlike our socialist who really didn't.

Just don’t cry about migrants and refugees some years later..

[Hulu]

It took almost 3 years to brainwash the English People to stay in EU . Now there have a good chance , let’s vote again. Soros and the Elite will pay till the vote fits.


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[melvinmelvin]

Saw a video interview with an Irish politician here the other day, no - can not remember the name.

He had a fairly relaxed attitude to the NI border issue.

His "rant" went along the following lines:

 

I do not understand all this waffling in Westminster re NI-border.

Why on earth are they waffling? I just cannon understand that there is a problem here.

Look: The way it is today; NI is comfortable, Ireland is comfortable, UK is comfortable, EU is comfortable.

Now: UK exits EU. So what? Just continue as before. Cannot see any problems here.

Ireland has made it clear that they will not establish any border-activities re NI.

NI will not establish border controls.

UK is leaving EU, after that border with EU is a EU problem not a UK problem.

So why the waffling and where is the problem?

Just continue as before.

If EU is desperate for controls Commission must send teams and equipment to Ireland land/sea and do it themselves,

not likely to happen.

Just continue.

[welovesundaysatspace]

38 minutes ago, Hulu said:

It took almost 3 years to brainwash the English People to stay in EU .

How long did it take to brainwash the English people to leave the EU?

[welovesundaysatspace]

23 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

UK is leaving EU, after that border with EU is a EU problem not a UK problem.

So why the waffling and where is the problem?

Just continue as before.

If EU is desperate for controls Commission must send teams and equipment to Ireland land/sea and do it themselves,

not likely to happen.

Just continue.

Not sure what’s worse. That an Irish politician says such nonsense or that you’re reposting it here. What an imbecile. Did he really forget that his country is an EU member? 

[mommysboy]

This reminds me of the 70's when the unions held sway over the Government.  Now it's the far right doing the same. This is going to be enormously damaging. No good can come of this situation.

[nauseus]

22 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

This reminds me of the 70's when the unions held sway over the Government.  Now it's the far right doing the same. This is going to be enormously damaging. No good can come of this situation.

Looks like you don't know your left from your right. 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Hulu said:

It took almost 3 years to brainwash the English People to stay in EU . Now there have a good chance , let’s vote again. Soros and the Elite will pay till the vote fits.


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Did Scotland and NI get extra secret Soros money or are they already the elites?

[kwilco]

London 700,000, Harrogate 1200. - QED

Edited October 21, 2018 by kwilco

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, kwilco said:

London 700,000, Harrogate 1200. - QED

Eu refendum results 2016 leave 17,410,742 eligible voters

 

The People's Vote campaign said stewards on the route estimated 700,000 were taking part. eligible voters  unknown 

The Metropolitan Police said it was not able to estimate the size of the crowd

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

Edited October 21, 2018 by vinny41
added link

[Jip99]

11 minutes ago, kwilco said:

London 700,000, Harrogate 1200. - QED

 

 

52% vs 48% buttercup -QED!

[mommysboy]

11 hours ago, brucec64 said:

The issue with Brexiters is a complete lack of understanding on economic issues. Tarrifs are paid by importers i.e. British firms, and passed on to consumers. So you have effectively voted for higher taxes. Nice job!

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Much needed taxes.  At least there are some silver linings then.

[Stupooey]

44 minutes ago, kwilco said:

London 700,000, Harrogate 1200. - QED

No real surprise there. It is much easier to mobilise people to take action to change the status quo, as opposed to maintaining it. That is why the Referendum result in all probability failed to represent the opinion of the electorate as a whole.

[Orac]

Much needed taxes.  At least there are some silver linings then.

Depends how they fall. Many of the higher tariffs fall on foodstuffs so are regressive in that they will have far bigger impact on the poorest in society.


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[vinny41]

16 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

No real surprise there. It is much easier to mobilise people to take action to change the status quo, as opposed to maintaining it. That is why the Referendum result in all probability failed to represent the opinion of the electorate as a whole.

Yes I think its called rent a mob  Interesting that no-one can provide a number on the eligible voters that took part in the march