Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

For the UK I can surmise that this is not about taking an oath subject to penalties, it is about validation. And the UK has determined that it cannot/will not validate the process required by the Thai IO. Financial procedures are about process, not oaths.

No Embassy in any country 'validates' anything- most provide affadavits that are then attested to by the citizen and  sworn under Oath according to the laws of the country-Most indicate and state they are nt responsible for the veracity of what is stated/  The BE Embassy letter has and will be accepted- It is the BE that has decided it does not want to play ball-  If there is some UK law that now prohibits it's employees  from issue these letters- what is it? and why hasn't the BE stated it.?

 

They can do whatever they want but  they need to be forthright about it- If they want to stop the letter to save money and staff so State it directly.

[bkkcanuck8]

7 minutes ago, superal said:

Thinking the whole scenario through . So if nothing changes and the only way to gain the extension is the 4/800k in the Thai bank. .

What will happen to the folk who are unable to meet the criteria and are stranded here without visas and sufficient funds to fly home .  Free stay at the Bangkok Hilton ? but the UK Embassy will not let that happen as they care for their fellow countrymen .  ????

If they don't have sufficient funds to fly home -- then I would guess that if they were depending on this letter... they were lying about the income from pensions.  In other words, they were not eligible in the first place.

[superal]

5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

They can pay 20k to a dodgy visa agent to "magic" the 800k into a bank account.

Not any more I believe . Agencies will be very wary of the consequences if found to be illegally assisting in procuring a bent visa and not to forget the 4/800k has to be seen to come from a foreign bank account .

[Spidey]

Just now, superal said:

Not any more I believe . Agencies will be very wary of the consequences if found to be illegally assisting in procuring a bent visa and not to forget the 4/800k has to be seen to come from a foreign bank account .

I tend to agree with you but as trhings stand you can still use a dodgy visa agent. Also, there is no requirement for the 800k to come from a foreign source.

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, superal said:

ot any more I believe . Agencies will be very wary of the consequences if found to be illegally assisting in procuring a bent visa and not to forget the 4/800k has to be seen to come from a foreign bank account .

There is no such thing in the Police Order that indicate the funds have to originate from anywhere except when a person  wants to change from an Exempt Entry/Tourist Visa  to obtain a Retirement or Marriage extension- Only in that instance do the funds need to originate from abroad.  It is becaue you first get a Non O Visa-then move forward with the rest.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Thaidream

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, Spidey said:

They can pay 20k to a dodgy visa agent to "magic" the 800k into a bank account.

Precisely my argument, it is impossible that the IO don't know of this route but they just don't care, they want their paperwork to be correct, they aren't concerned about the nit picking sensibilities of the BE, give us the letter for our files and all is hunky dory. The BE knows this I'm sure but they have another agender and it has nothing to do with legal issues.

[superal]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I tend to agree with you but as trhings stand you can still use a dodgy visa agent. Also, there is no requirement for the 800k to come from a foreign source.

I stand corrected but it would not surprise me if that changed to stop dodgy agencies from operating that loop hole .

 

[zydeco]

18 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Of course, presumably, it would be a whole lot easier to just print out 12 months of monthly bank statements for that home country account that would show all those Thai bank ATM withdrawals, although all those debit listings on the home country statement would be in the person's home country currency, not in Thai baht, which wouldn't really help Immigration at all.

And do you really want to turn over all your personal bank account information on a bank statement from your home country to Thai Immigration.  Especially considering how in the past copies of passport information have been "recycled" for office for the other side of the paper?  And then later discarded into the trash for anyone to see?

[superal]

7 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I tend to agree with you but as trhings stand you can still use a dodgy visa agent. Also, there is no requirement for the 800k to come from a foreign source.

Apologies and you are correct but the point I am trying to make is what will become of them ? and there could be hundreds if not more non compliant retirees  who will be up the creek and stranded

[Spidey]

Just now, superal said:

I stand corrected but it would not surprise me if that changed to stop dodgy agencies from operating that loop hole .

 

They don't need to change the requirements, they just need to stop Immigration officers from working in cahoots with the visa agents for the price of a "cup of tea".

 

With Big Joke now in charge of Immigration this may well happen.

 

I like the guy. He reminds me of Thatcher, disagreed with her policies, but had to admire her for the way she got things done.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, zydeco said:

And do you really want to turn over all your personal bank account information on a bank statement from your home country to Thai Immigration.  Especially considering how in the past copies of passport information have been "recycled" for office for the other side of the paper?  And then later discarded into the trash for anyone to see?

No problem. Who gives a s**t?

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Spidey said:

No problem. Who gives a s**t?

Identity theft ?

[Jingthing]

24 minutes ago, superal said:

Not any more I believe . Agencies will be very wary of the consequences if found to be illegally assisting in procuring a bent visa and not to forget the 4/800k has to be seen to come from a foreign bank account .

There is no such requirement for foreign import for retirement extensions. That's only for conversion applications (30 day stamp or tourist visa converted to 90 day O visa) done in Thailand. 

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, zydeco said:

And do you really want to turn over all your personal bank account information on a bank statement from your home country to Thai Immigration.  Especially considering how in the past copies of passport information have been "recycled" for office for the other side of the paper?  And then later discarded into the trash for anyone to see?

You don't turn over the account numbers or the Debit card numbers. You r direct deposits are listed month by month-in your bank  summary normally on 1 or 2 pages with a summary- Easy  for an Imm Officer to use the exchange rate in force on the date of the extension.  They do the same now when you take the Embassy Letter to the Imm Office- if you watch them they calculate  the amount for each letter in Thai Baht.

 

You can back the above up with letters from your pension provider which will match the direct deposits or even your tax return which will normally show similar amounts. You  highlight the pertinent amounts so the IO has no problem viewing the info. A few minutes of  looking  by the IO and  no prob.   You can even show foreign debit cards that match your bank statements or Thai ATM receipts.  I always carry multiple proof and backup to Thai Imm but using the Embassy Letter has always worked until the BE decided not to issue the letter.

[Spidey]

9 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Identity theft ?

You need more than a few bank statements.

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, chris2004 said:

What is regular? I save my income in a UK bank and send it over 2 or 3 times a year when the rate is good. Is that regular or do they expect monthly income. Also i use Transferwise to transfer the money which (as i understand it) is deposited via another thai bank so would not show up as a FTT.

The British embassy is pushing for the onerous "regularity" of the claimed income being transferred into Thailand EACH MONTH. That is the British idea based on a total misunderstanding of Thai immigration law. This is dangerous stuff as this onerous idea could spread to be a general enforcement policy for all. Many people indeed want and NEED to manage their own money their own way! Many people have income streams paid into banks ABROAD. Many people want (or need) to import the funds as needed. Could be once a year. The British also (COMPLETELY INCORRECTLY) are promoting the false idea that immigration has expected/required the full income claim to be imported (IN FULL) every year. That has never been a requirement here. EVER. Thanks again, British embassy, for stirring the pot in this way. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Jingthing

[zydeco]

Okay, let's solve the problem.  Change the rules as they want, but Thais, British, and other embassies grandfather in everyone using the current system.  That means the embassies will need to continue generating letters but at a ever declining rate.  Put in changes for all new applications, say, six months from now.

[JackThompson]

41 minutes ago, evadgib said:

How will a law firm provide the necessary proof if the embassy can't?

By doing what other embassies do - just witness the signature on an affidavit.  Whether immigration would accept this, or continue accepting stat-docs as before from other embassies, remains to be seen.  My guess is they want the only "loophole" to be via agents.

 

39 minutes ago, superal said:

Not any more I believe . Agencies will be very wary of the consequences if found to be illegally assisting in procuring a bent visa

There are no fake-docs involved, so it would require an internal investigation of senior-level IOs - and the bosses who have allowed this to happen openly for decades - to show that the waiving of seasoning (legal, in and of itself) is being bought with tea-money. 

 

That's a much larger step than busting low-level employees taking "tip" money or agents creating troublesome paper-trails of faked tax-docs (like the one busted, already).

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

31 minutes ago, zydeco said:

And do you really want to turn over all your personal bank account information on a bank statement from your home country to Thai Immigration.  Especially considering how in the past copies of passport information have been "recycled" for office for the other side of the paper?  And then later discarded into the trash for anyone to see?

 

No.... of course not.

 

Though, in the past, when Immigration has asked to see supporting documents for financials, AFAIK, usually, it's just to review them -- not keep copies for their files.

 

[ginjag]

Seems to be nothing definite from both sources,   I wouldn't be surprised if both know what the score is and Im.Of. is heading towards a 800k in the bank -full stop,  only this route.

Thais get confused with so much paper work.    To my mind after January  you will need 800k from a Thai bank confirming the said amount was in the account for 3 months prior to the extension.

Wouldn't this be bliss, BUT not for those with 500k and pension details to offset.---BIG problem.

[usacb500biker]

I don't trust the Banks in this Poor 3RD world country 800,000B  NO way Vietnam  Here I come ?????????????

[dick dasterdly]

38 minutes ago, Spidey said:

They can pay 20k to a dodgy visa agent to "magic" the 800k into a bank account.

I'm obviously living in the wrong part of the country, as I already pay an agent 30,000 bht to deal with my entirely legal extensions (based on income)!  Although, to be fair, the cost also includes the agent dealing with 90 day reports on my behalf and coming to my house to collect all the necessary paperwork/return passport once completed.

 

Also to be fair, the agent makes it simpler when it comes to some of the constantly changing 'requirements' at the local IO.....  i.e. takes the necessary (???? - why on earth are they 'necessary'?) 'photos of me in my house etc. ????

 

Even so, the proof of income letter from the brit. embassy has always been required.

 

 

[soalbundy]

For those whose partners/wives own houses one could borrow the 400/800k for 3 months using the house as collateral and pay it back after the extension.

[CharlieH]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

For those whose partners/wives own houses one could borrow the 400/800k for 3 months using the house as collateral and pay it back after the extension.

Would be interesting to see what that would actually cost to do ?

Those that have built homes etc it could provide a possible alternative if financially viable.

[mfd101]

30 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The British embassy is pushing for the onerous "regularity" of the claimed income being transferred into Thailand EACH MONTH. That is the British idea based on a total misunderstanding of Thai immigration law. This is dangerous stuff as this onerous idea could spread to be a general enforcement policy for all. Many people indeed want and NEED to manage their own money their own way! Many people have income streams paid into banks ABROAD. Many people want (or need) to import the funds as needed. Could be once a year. The British also (COMPLETELY INCORRECTLY) are promoting the false idea that immigration has expected/required the full income claim to be imported (IN FULL) every year. That has never been a requirement here. EVER. Thanks again, British embassy, for stirring the pot in this way. 

Yes, certainly the vice-consul in her radio interview did an extremely professional imitation of generalized incompetence.

[Spidey]

Just now, CharlieH said:

Would be interesting to see what that would actually cost to do ?

Those that have built homes etc it could provide a possible alternative if financially viable.

Minimum 24k interest plus expenses. In practice you would probably need a 4 month loan so 32k+.

 

Dodgy visa agent 20k. Cheaper and, some would say, safer.

[Cricky]

18 minutes ago, usacb500biker said:

I don't trust the Banks in this Poor 3RD world country 800,000B  NO way Vietnam  Here I come ?????????????

You are incorrect, get your facts right, Thailand is not a "Poor 3RD world country", its a developing country.

The banking system here is far safer than that of Vietnam.

[rtco]

19 hours ago, jimn said:

Sorry irrelevant post. You are another one who does not understand the issue

Why? The original post says "The spokesperson claimed that the income letters are not always required by Thai immigration and that expats can simply show a copy of their bank statements when submitting their application.cHowever, anyone who has ever applied for a marriage or retirement extension in Thailand will know that is not the case and that the income certification letter has to date been a requirement."

 

I am just proving that the income certification letter has not been a requirement!

[CharlieH]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Minimum 24k interest plus expenses. In practice you would probably need a 4 month loan so 32k+.

 

Dodgy visa agent 20k. Cheaper and, some would say, safer.

Assuming 1% per month, ok got it.

[rtco]

20 hours ago, Jingthing said:

100 percent irrelevant to the issue at hand. NOT HELPFUL. The issues are about income based applications that require embassy letters. Your type of bank account based application does not.

Why? The original post says "The spokesperson claimed that the income letters are not always required by Thai immigration and that expats can simply show a copy of their bank statements when submitting their application. However, anyone who has ever applied for a marriage or retirement extension in Thailand will know that is not the case and that the income certification letter has to date been a requirement."

 

I am just proving that the income certification letter has not been a requirement!