Marriage/Retirement - Interpretations explained.

[overherebc]

1 minute ago, rott said:

Despite my earlier frivolous response, I am occasionally the same. With me it is the heat, never bothered me before must be the ageing process. Only practical answer for me is to stay somewhere cool between 12 and 4. And no not a bar.

Don't think the age and heat are related. Some of my much younger friends in their 80's complain about it as well. ????

Seriously I think many people younger and older mention it especially over the past 3 or 4 years.

Don't want to go way off topic but I'll call it climate change, not the other too emotive term.

I just fancy a change or changes, bit cooler climate, and steadiness of circumstances, a bit more sense applied to things like traffic laws etc. 

Could go on but I'm sure you know what I mean.

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, onera1961 said:

Is this a valid combo method

 

1. One Bangkok bank Savings account where every week $500 USD (let's say $15K baht) transferred with FTT code. 

2. Second Bangkok bank savings account where a minimum 60K baht is held throughout the year.

 

Does  the above combo meet extension requirement? 

 

 

Does it amount to a combined income and funds of 880K per annum.

15K x 52 = 780K + 60K = 840K.

You could withdraw up to 40K from your funds account and still meet the requirements.

 

This assumes of course my IO were correct with the information of how the combo method is to be applied.

We should get confirmation in a week or so.

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, onera1961 said:

Is this a valid combo method

 

1. One Bangkok bank Savings account where every week $500 USD (let's say $15K baht) transferred with FTT code. 

2. Second Bangkok bank savings account where a minimum 60K baht is held throughout the year.

 

Does  the above combo meet extension requirement? 

 

 

15,000 x 52    780,000

Add your 60,000   840,000.

 

Seems to fit.

[marcusarelus]

2 hours ago, billsmart said:

Also, and at the risk of "throwing a wet blanket" over all this, I don't think we're anywhere close to seeing the end to all this. If you look at it from the Thai's POV, what they understandably want is some assurance that Type O and Type O-A visa holders who are living in Thailand longer term are able to financially care for themselves and will not become a burden on the state.

 

The changes to the Funds in the Bank will better do that for them.

 

The changes to the Income Method, as stated above, will not.

 

The only income that can be counted upon to be secure and consistent is a pension issued by a government agency. I'm sure the Thais know that, and the source of the "income" in the Income Method will soon be restricted to only pension, even for 30-year-old, unretired, ex-pats living here on and applying for extensions using Marriage qualifications.

 

And, I don't think the Thais will want to wade through and verify all the various documents that an ex-pat could produce to "prove" the deposits were from a government pension.

 

Also, there are many ways to show monthly, international deposits that only appear to guarantee income. You could, for example, transfer THB70K on the 1st of the month, send it back to your home country's account on the 15th, and then resend it back on the 1st of the next month. That would only cost you THB 3K or 4K at the most. I'm sure there are many other, less-obvious schemes to simulate what the Thais are looking for - proof of a secure, consistent, monthly income.

I think when all the dust settles, the only two options available will be Funds in the Bank, or the Letter from your Embassy verifying the monthly, pension income amount.

 

So, I'd advise all of you who, like me, a US citizen, whose embassy will no longer issue the affidavit verifying the source and the amount of Monthly Income, had better get ready to have the Funds in the Bank, perhaps starting in 2020.

 

That's what I am doing.

Sorry but why are you advising anyone to do anything?  There are people here who actually have some expertise about the issue and it's not you.  There are the mods,  and the frequent posters a couple of agents and an advisor to the agents.  What happens is the advisor reads all the threads and then advises his agency who then advises immigration.  

 

But what do I know?  I'm just a guy who has gotten 20 retirement extensions all over Thailand. 

 

But I'm a betting man.  And I feel with a strong degree of certainty that you are wrong.  The income method will still be used and done by bank letter. 

 

I only post this to throw a monkey wrench into your attempt to scare poor Americans.  Don't worry guys.  You will still be able to use the income method at your next extension. 

[marcusarelus]

6 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Don't think the age and heat are related. Some of my much younger friends in their 80's complain about it as well. ????

Seriously I think many people younger and older mention it especially over the past 3 or 4 years.

Don't want to go way off topic but I'll call it climate change, not the other too emotive term.

I just fancy a change or changes, bit cooler climate, and steadiness of circumstances, a bit more sense applied to things like traffic laws etc. 

Could go on but I'm sure you know what I mean.

I lived here in my 20's with no AC.  Few had AC.  I tried it when moved back 20 years ago and no way.  I almost drowned in my sweat at night. 

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, ArickChaiyaphum said:

Since when does money for income on these visas have to be from abroad??

It doesn't if your income comes from within Thailand.

If it's from outside Thailand it now has to be deposited monthly in a Thai bank and the incomes must be proved to come from overseas.

[overherebc]

4 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I lived here in my 20's with no AC.  Few had AC.  I tried it when moved back 20 years ago and no way.  I almost drowned in my sweat at night. 

Similar experience.

It could take many months to become used to the heat, especially at night, bedroom at home has the AC set at 16 C.

I have noticed how quickly Thai people find AC at night essential, after only a week or two they can't do without it.

[billsmart]

3 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Sorry but why are you advising anyone to do anything?  There are people here who actually have some expertise about the issue and it's not you.  There are the mods,  and the frequent posters a couple of agents and an advisor to the agents.  What happens is the advisor reads all the threads and then advises his agency who then advises immigration.  

 

But what do I know?  I'm just a guy who has gotten 20 retirement extensions all over Thailand. 

 

But I'm a betting man.  And I feel with a strong degree of certainty that you are wrong.  The income method will still be used and done by bank letter. 

 

I only post this to throw a monkey wrench into your attempt to scare poor Americans.  Don't worry guys.  You will still be able to use the income method at your next extension. 

First of all, I'm coming from the assumption that all these forums on Thaivisa are for all Thaivisa members to express their opinion and not just for the "experts" to tell us what they think. As far as I'm concerned, as long as I label my remarks as my opinion and do not try to foist them off onto people as anything "official," then that's my prerogative.

 

Secondly, I've actually been given "official" documents from my local IO which states in no uncertain terms that bank statements and bank letters will not be accepted beginning in 2020. I have my doubts about these "official" documents, but they are what my local IO says and believes to be the upcoming rules. I've been down to their offices twice to talk about this.

 

Thirdly, I too have lived in Thailand for almost 20 years on various visas. My current visa is an O-A (long-stay) and was issued in 2008. So, I too have successfully received many stay extensions. I've received extensions on my current visa using both marriage and retirement qualifications, so I know what they used to be, and I'm learning more every day about what they are changing to now.

 

Lastly, I'm not trying to "scare poor Americans" or Brits, or Aussies, or Danes whose embassies have quit issuing income affidavits. I'm advising them to be prepared for more changes, or at least more "clarifications" on these new rules and even newer rules which will inevitably follow.

 

I'm NOT a betting man, and I know what I have suggested above is not the official policy yet, but also worry (and have received some hints) that it soon may be.

 

Having said all that, my prediction is the rules for the Income Method involving a simple copy of your bank book and a letter from your bank will not last for long. 

[sfokevin]

2 hours ago, PAWNEESE said:

The clearest, most concise and most useful post ever. ???? The penny has finally dropped re combo method with me. Many Thanks.

 

 

Yes a well thought out form...

 

Has anyone confirmed that TI will be using this worksheet or are basing their rules on it?... 

[khastan]

Does anybody know If I apply for retirement extension at Nong Khai in April using income letter obtained in December from UK embassy of approx 400.000 baht and money in Thai bank approx 500.000 baht for three months will this fulfill the requirement of having three months of 800.000 baht after obtaining the extension.

[Tanoshi]

42 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Does it amount to a combined income and funds of 880K per annum.

Typo error. Should have been 800K.

[khastan]

Yes but it is not actually money sat in a Thai Bank.

[Tanoshi]

8 minutes ago, khastan said:

Does anybody know If I apply for retirement extension at Nong Khai in April using income letter obtained in December from UK embassy of approx 400.000 baht and money in Thai bank approx 500.000 baht for three months will this fulfill the requirement of having three months of 800.000 baht after obtaining the extension.

Embassy income letters should be valid for 6 months.

Updated passbook and letter from bank for the 500K deposit.

Meets the requirements for obtaining the extension.

 

Depends on the method you'll use at the next extension renewal if 800K has to sit in your bank for 3 months after the extension. If your continuing with the combo method, then no requirement to keep 800K for 3 months after.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Tanoshi

[skatewash]

11 minutes ago, sfokevin said:

Yes a well thought out form...

 

Has anyone confirmed that TI will be using this worksheet or are basing their rules on it?... 

No, it's merely based on my understanding of the rules posted in the OP.  It's meant to take the most unfavorable interpretation of the rules on the theory that if you do that you will only be pleasantly surprised when the rules are actually interpreted by immigration.

People understand things in different ways.  I like details, I don't find the "big picture" that interesting.  This is merely my interpretation of how the rules could be enforced.  Only time will tell what actually happens.  I only hope what actually happens is something like this or better.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, chang50 said:

Can anyone please clarify for me that my retirement extension granted on Feb 6th at Jomtien (a month early) and valid until Mar 5th 2020 falls outside the new rules?It would appear to be the case as it was filed before Mar 1st but I need to be certain.Thanks,

If they follow the rules, you will be fine according to the rules en-force when you received your extension.  The problem is, no one knows if IOs in any office will follow the rules or not - and any means of appealing a bad-decision are limited to non-existent. 

 

Some who have applied in other offices have been told they are subject to the "new rules" - even before those rules are slated to go into effect.  If they didn't reset your 90-day reporting and tell you to come back and show your bank-book again at that time, this is a good sign.  As well, Jomtien have been traditionally "friendly" with retirement extensions.

 

But, there is simply no guarantee of future behavior since there is no enforcement of "stick to the rules as written" down the chain-of-command.

 

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Having to report every 90 days, as some offices have suggested, makes a mockery of the option to make 90 day reports online or mail.

Much more sensible and the method adopted by my IO, is to check the balances for the previous year when making your next extension application.

But, but but ... you could have "gotten away" with spending your foreign-sourced capital into the country for an entire year without immigration forcing you to keep a certain bank balance during the interim!  The horror of the thought of such occurring is beyond words!! 

 

Making 4x agent-payments /yr will be OK in that scenario, though.

Edited February 14, 2019 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, billsmart said:

Also, and at the risk of "throwing a wet blanket" over all this, I don't think we're anywhere close to seeing the end to all this. If you look at it from the Thai's POV, what they understandably want is some assurance that Type O and Type O-A visa holders who are living in Thailand longer term are able to financially care for themselves and will not become a burden on the state.

How would that happen?  There is no welfare here. 

 

IDC costs for overstayers, prior to getting the funds to fly out?  The reported-experience in IDC - crowding, terrible food, and washing one's food trays in the toilet - seems to be enough to prevent widespread "abuse" in this regard.

 

A health emergency?  That could happen to tourists as well - of which there are many, many more - so the solution (insurance) would need to include getting all concerned stabilized and sent-home - not just "longer stay" expats.

 

I am 100% in support of any necessary and effective measures to protect Thais from expat liabilities, to the extent those exist in significant amounts to warrant a response (in comparison to VAT taxes we pay, for example - short-term tourists can get refunds on these).  But given what we are seeing so far - changes which would not affect how agents operate and insurance-options in the Non-O-X Visa which force "outpatient" care - that is not what this is about. 

 

Therefore, anyone who believes these policy-shifts are about anything noble, good, or worthwhile is deceiving themselves.  This is about increasing corruption (agent) payments, and/or inflating capital stuck in Thai banks, and/or pushing business to connected insurance companies, and/or reducing the number of foreigners in the country long-term, and/or etc.  Nothing which would address the stated-problems has been significantly altered by the current or proposed changes to date.

Edited February 14, 2019 by JackThompson

[Thaidream]

42 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

t was only requested as back up proof to confirm your income stated in your Embassy affidavit.

On it's own without an Embassy letter it was and still is unacceptable.

Well aware of what they appear to require-  my angst is simply that they now have an opportunity to actually allow a variety of ways to not only prove income but money in the bank system. 

They are choosing the worst possible ways to do it.

Sending 65 K per month into a Thai bank proves nothing regarding long term income streams and the nonsensical  money in the bank system with continual  going to Immigration  to prove there is still the money there- then 400 K puts not only a burden on the Io's but how about the retirees. I have to plan all my trips  around  the time frame I need to go to Immigration. For the income method I must constantly watch the exchange rate; the time of month it is- make sure bank book is updated etc etc.

 

There are much better ways to achieve what they want which is to make sure a person really has the money in the bank and the income.  Without the 4 countries citizens not having access to the Embassy letter- this system puts the citizens of these 4 countries at a disadvantage.  I feel we are being penalized because our Embassies refuse to co-operate.

 

The fact that I have the means for the money in the bank system; income stream and even the Elite Visa does not change the fact that Thai immigration has made life harder for  us and to what end.  The agents will still supply 'loans' for those without; still get seasoning waived and there will be no change for those who use that route except a little more dosh to pave the way.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tanoshi]

1 minute ago, JackThompson said:

But, but but ... you could have "gotten away" with spending your foreign-sourced capital into the country for an entire year without immigration forcing you to keep a certain bank balance during the interim!  The horror of the thought of such occurring is beyond words!! 

Your downfall, I don't see Immigrations need to increase the workload more than they have to and play 'Mother' to expats.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, AlfonsV said:

As far as I understand I will not be allowed anymore to bring cash from my homecountry, convert it at a local money changer and deposit it on my thai bank account. Right?

Some suggested declaring the funds at Thai customs, and obtaining a receipt.  But this assumes the IO will not say, "Bank letter and statement showing 12x foreign-xfers accepted only."

[skatewash]

14 minutes ago, khastan said:

Does anybody know If I apply for retirement extension at Nong Khai in April using income letter obtained in December from UK embassy of approx 400.000 baht and money in Thai bank approx 500.000 baht for three months will this fulfill the requirement of having three months of 800.000 baht after obtaining the extension.

No one knows, but if that were my situation and if we are interpreting the rules in the OP correctly (meaning in the same way that your immigration office will interpret them) then I would feel pretty confident of getting my retirement extension this year.

 

My understanding is that you would further need to keep a balance of 400,000 or more in that account for a period of three months after your application for extension and that it could never drop below 400,000 for the year.  Compliance with these requirements would be checked at your next application for extension.

 

Since the income letter from the BE you have today is your last one (BE no longer issues them) you would need to switch to a different method for next year.  If you would like to continue to use the combo method with the new monthly deposit method then you would have to maintain 400,000 in that account year round and do monthly transfers from overseas to your Thai bank of at least 33,333 baht.  You would then be in a position to use the combo method (under the new monthly deposit rules) to get your extension in 2020.

[Tanoshi]

7 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Well aware of what they appear to require-  my angst is simply that they now have an opportunity to actually allow a variety of ways to not only prove income but money in the bank system.  

They are choosing the worst possible ways to do it.

You negate the fact that those who can still obtain an Embassy letter, now also have the option to prove income by way of Thai bank statements and your only thinking of yourself.

Imagine nationals of 37 different Countries, with pension letters from their governments or elsewhere, as you suggest as proof, turning up at Immigration expecting them to understand 37 letters of different languages.

 

US and Australia supplied income letters via a personal statement made by you.

Other nations are required to submit their proof by way of pension letters etc, in their native language to their respective Embassies, who then supply a certified letter of income in English to Immigration.

[JackThompson]

5 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Your downfall, I don't see Immigrations need to increase the workload more than they have to and play 'Mother' to expats.

I tend to agree, but they did a similar thing with ED extension changes - granted, that was for a smaller expat-population group.  But their processes are hardly efficient - consider 4x ways to find out where you reside - TM-6, TM-28, TM-30, 90-day report.  It seems some in power are willing to go to any lengths of trouble to their ranks, to reduce our numbers via "extra unpublished requirements" / harassment, policy-changes, etc.

[ivor bigun]

Some suggested declaring the funds at Thai customs, and obtaining a receipt.  But this assumes the IO will not say, "Bank letter and statement showing 12x foreign-xfers accepted only."

What? So for the last 12 years or so i have either brought cash over ,got friends or relations to bring it and changed it when the pound is up ,transferwised,swifted it etc will no longer be accepted ?

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[wobalt]

I don’t need all this shilly- shally. For the time being I will stay with the 1 year visa



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[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, ace000 said:

Yes I now realise that I cannot apply for a retirement visa on my tourist visa , thank you for that info I appreciate it .although that not what I understood when the EO explained it to me , however, granted I may had miss-understood her , has what you guys are saying makes sense as that was the originally process. What I am hoping is that the original 800k from Australia deposited in my Thai account 5 years ago will suffice . And yes presently there more fund then necessary in my Thai account and it has been sitting in there for over 3 months .

You apply for a change of Visa status from your TV to a Non Imm O at your local Immigration office.

If you have 800K in a Thai bank account, you qualify financially.

The Non O allows you to stay another 90 days.

Within the last 30 days of the 90 days you apply for the extension, using the same financial proof.

 

You must have at least 15 days permission to stay remaining from your TV entry to make the Non Imm O application.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Tanoshi

[rott]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

Sorry but why are you advising anyone to do anything?  There are people here who actually have some expertise about the issue and it's not you.  There are the mods,  and the frequent posters a couple of agents and an advisor to the agents.  What happens is the advisor reads all the threads and then advises his agency who then advises .

Agents and an advisor to the agents? I never knew that, so why are we still so much in the dark? So there are still people who keep their superior knowledge to themselves and do not gob off to the world about it. Amazing.

 

In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is best off keeping his mouth shut and just getting on with it

[Tanoshi]

37 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Some suggested declaring the funds at Thai customs, and obtaining a receipt.  But this assumes the IO will not say, "Bank letter and statement showing 12x foreign-xfers accepted only."

Some are suggesting various methods other than those published in the orders.

It's either;

1). 40/65K deposited monthly in a Thai bank account from overseas, or,

2). a letter of income from your Embassy.

 

Anything else is daydreaming or wishful thinking.

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Does it amount to a combined income and funds of 880K per annum.

15K x 52 = 780K + 60K = 840K.

You could withdraw up to 40K from your funds account and still meet the requirements.

 

This assumes of course my IO were correct with the information of how the combo method is to be applied.

We should get confirmation in a week or so.

Yes, there is the question of 400,000 baht being held in the bank.... or not.

[brokenbone]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Some are suggesting various methods other than those published in the orders.

It's either;

1). 40/65K deposited monthly in a Thai bank account from overseas, or,

2). a letter of income from your Embassy.

 

Anything else is daydreaming or wishful thinking.

so with an income letter, theres no need for monthly deposit ?

[JackThompson]

29 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

What? So for the last 12 years or so i have either brought cash over ,got friends or relations to bring it and changed it when the pound is up ,transferwised,swifted it etc will no longer be accepted ?

The "swifted" method should work OK.  That is what I have been doing monthly since last December, and it shows up on my BKB account statement as a foreign transfer.  

 

Unfortunately, my local office currently requires income used for a married-extension to be "pension income" only; I am not that old yet, so cannot use it.  Maybe, by the time my next Non-O-ME Visa runs out, they will have changed their policy but, I doubt it - hurdles tend to increase, only.  Eventually, if things continue as they are, they will narrow it down to the point where I can either pay them off through an agent, or abandon my family here.