Marriage/Retirement - Interpretations explained.

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

so with an income letter, theres no need for monthly deposit ?

An Embassy letter!

[samtam]

On 2/11/2019 at 9:35 PM, Sheryl said:

I've been looking around and the best I have found is 2.15% for a 48 month  FD at Krung Sri.

 

Of interest to those worried about what would happen in an emergency with their funds tied up, they state that these deposits can be used as collateral to access a loan fro mtheir bank. (That part is probably true elsewhere as well).

I don't know which IMM office you report to, but in the early years of applying for EoS I used bank fixed deposits for my application at Chaengwattana, and it caused no end of problems for the IO, who couldn't seem to understand what a fixed deposit was, despite it being verified and chopped etc by the bank. After that debacle I switched to putting money into my savings passbook, and that seemed to overcome that obstacle. Unfortunately with interest rates so low on savings...(less that 1%), a FD would be desirable if one is keeping THB800k permanently, and at the rate you quote from Krungsri, but I don't want to have unnecessary hassle with IMM, if they're still not familiar with a "fixed deposit". Also, there may be some withholding tax for income over THB20k, although @ 2.15% that wouldn't yet apply. But interest rates worldwide, including THB, are trending upwards, so that is always a possibility. If anyone has had any recent good experiences at Chaengwattana regarding THB fixed deposits, I'd welcome hearing about it. Of course you can't do the date of application deposit into your savings account, (with a fixed deposit), as currently required for a savings passbook. (As an aside, that action alone - date of application deposit - is a safeguard that the money/account is yours, and not some fabricated account...but I'm now sure that's not the issue of these new regulations; although I don't know what is.)

[Tanoshi]

6 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Yes, there is the question of 400,000 baht being held in the bank.... or not.

Not for the combo method.

You could have less than 400K in funds to begin with.

 

For the 800Kin the bank method, I still believe the requirement to keep 800K in your account for 3 months after obtaining an extension is a complete misinterpretation of what was intended. 

 

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, billsmart said:

First of all, I'm coming from the assumption that all these forums on Thaivisa are for all Thaivisa members to express their opinion and not just for the "experts" to tell us what they think. As far as I'm concerned, as long as I label my remarks as my opinion and do not try to foist them off onto people as anything "official," then that's my prerogative.

 

Secondly, I've actually been given "official" documents from my local IO which states in no uncertain terms that bank statements and bank letters will not be accepted beginning in 2020. I have my doubts about these "official" documents, but they are what my local IO says and believes to be the upcoming rules. I've been down to their offices twice to talk about this.

 

Thirdly, I too have lived in Thailand for almost 20 years on various visas. My current visa is an O-A (long-stay) and was issued in 2008. So, I too have successfully received many stay extensions. I've received extensions on my current visa using both marriage and retirement qualifications, so I know what they used to be, and I'm learning more every day about what they are changing to now.

 

Lastly, I'm not trying to "scare poor Americans" or Brits, or Aussies, or Danes whose embassies have quit issuing income affidavits. I'm advising them to be prepared for more changes, or at least more "clarifications" on these new rules and even newer rules which will inevitably follow.

 

I'm NOT a betting man, and I know what I have suggested above is not the official policy yet, but also worry (and have received some hints) that it soon may be.

 

Having said all that, my prediction is the rules for the Income Method involving a simple copy of your bank book and a letter from your bank will not last for long. 

You misread my post.  I wrote, "But what do I know?  I'm just a guy who has gotten 20 retirement extensions all over Thailand."  That is a self deprecating remark to explain why I would not advise anyone. 

 

I don't think you have received any official immigration information.  Just my opinion. 

 

By writing that the income method will no longer be accepted you are scaring people.  And to say that was not your intention does not lessen the effect. 

 

I think I said it before, one of us is correct and one of us is not.  We'll find out soon. 

[Tanoshi]

11 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

so with an income letter, theres no need for monthly deposit ?

Not with an Embassy letter stipulating your income as being over 65K.

In that case it's your Embassy that will require the proof of your income.

[ivor bigun]

The "swifted" method should work OK.  That is what I have been doing monthly since last December, and it shows up on my BKB account statement as a foreign transfer.  
 
Unfortunately, my local office currently requires income used for a married-extension to be "pension income" only; I am not that old yet, so cannot use it.  Maybe, by the time my next Non-O-ME Visa runs out, they will have changed their policy but, I doubt it - hurdles tend to increase, only.  Eventually, if things continue as they are, they will narrow it down to the point where I can either pay them off through an agent, or abandon my family here.

Up till now i have never even been asked where the money comes from just show my bank book with a bank letter saying the money has been in for 3 months,it has i dont use an agent, will they no longer allow this,but you will have to prove where it came from,?

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[jacko45k]

Just now, Tanoshi said:

Not for the combo method.

You could have less than 400K in funds to begin with.

 

For the 800Kin the bank method, I still believe the requirement to keep 800K in your account for 3 months after obtaining an extension is a complete misinterpretation of what was intended. 

 

Confirmed in police order No. 35/2561, for the combi method the terms refer you back to Item 4), which states the balance must not become less than 400,000. Do you have any order denying that or is it misinterpreted in your view.

[billsmart]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Therefore, anyone who believes these policy-shifts are about anything noble, good, or worthwhile is deceiving themselves.  This is about increasing corruption (agent) payments, and/or inflating capital stuck in Thai banks, and/or pushing business to connected insurance companies, and/or reducing the number of foreigners in the country long-term, and/or etc.  Nothing which would address the stated-problems has been significantly altered by the current or proposed changes to date.

 

It doesn't matter WHY Thailand wants to change the rules on who and under what conditions and qualifications they will allow non-citizens to visit, and especially live in their country for an extended period. In fact, if you think the worse, you'd probably just assume the rules would become increasingly more draconian.

 

I don't know how many visa-holders or other non-citizens have become a burden on the Thai government, like getting into accidents or becoming sick, or even committing crimes while living here without having enough funds to care for themselves. I always hear people say "not many," but I really don't know.

 

In any event, and for whatever reason or even no reason at all, this is the Thai's country, and they'll make the laws they think will serve their country (or themselves) best.

[Thaidream]

24 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You negate the fact that those who can still obtain an Embassy letter, now also have the option to prove income by way of Thai bank statements and your only thinking of yourself.

I never suggested that the Embassy Letter be stopped for anyone or transferring money into a Thai bank be stopped.

 

 

I stand by my statement that Thai immigration has chosen the worst possible way to prove income and made a mockery of someone needing 800K in the bank when they will settle for 400K.  The new rules are disjointed.  Transferring 65K per month proves nothing except someone has 65K to transfer

 

!.  For the income method- they could use what they suggested OR use pension letters; plus overseas bank account summaries plus evidence of  money coming into Thailand (ATM receipts/ATM cards OR Embassy Letter  OR simply a 65K deposit every month into a Thai Bank Account. Proof of Income is the key.  The more ways the better for applicants. The US Embassy staff even took the time to  show Thai Imm what  US Pension statements look like. If an applicant (non English Speaking) wanted to go this route-of course- their statements would need to be translated by an official translator to English or Thai.

Thai immigration can look at these statements and in 3-5 minutes determine their validity. It took them less than a minute to look at mine when they requested them.

 

2.   the money in the bank system makes no sense- the old system was just fine-  if the IO suspected manipulation he could ask for proof of income or proof money was being spent.

 

The new system should apply only to agent initiated  requests not a self funded request. The agent system is the largest source of applications from people who do not have the required income- not  Embassy Letters or other manipulation.

 

In addition- in lieu of a self funded request- an applicant should be able to provide a Condo Chanote or House chanote and have the tax value of the property counted toward the 400K or 800K. To use this method- the applicant can then provide proof of an income stream  ( 800K value of home eliminates need for any money in bank and guarantees the applicant- any income stream above 40K per month is sufficient)

 

At some point Thailand needs to recognize there is a difference from a long term expat /married expat to a Thai  and a first time applicant.   I have been married to a Thai for 40 years and under the marriage provisions there is no credit for longevity or any assets acquired.  Others have been under a retirement extension for 20 years- again no credit for longevity or assets acquired.

 

If the purpose of the law is to create a situation of fairness; equity and maintain the interests of both the foreigner and the Thai Government  I would suggest they revisit the  new rules 

 

 

[Tanoshi]

22 hours ago, jacko45k said:

12-3-2

Still wrong Jack.

First time applicants, 2@ 800, then 3@800, then 6@400, before 1 again at @800.

12 - 3 - 2 -1 = 6.

Second application it has to be in 3 months before the application date, not 2.

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

Second application it has to be in 3 months before the application date, not 2.

Again not what is written but whatever.

[billsmart]

12 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I don't think you have received any official immigration information.  Just my opinion. 

...

I think I said it before, one of us is correct and one of us is not.  We'll find out soon. 

 

I've sent you the documents I was given from my local IO. I'd rather not post them here because I did on another forum and there was hell to pay. ????

 

I think probably, neither one of us will prove to have been completely right, but as you said and to paraphrase, "All of it is "just our opinion." ????

Edited February 14, 2019 by billsmart

[wobalt]

It doesn't matter WHY Thailand wants to change the rules on who and under what conditions and qualifications they will allow non-citizens to visit, and especially live in their country for an extended period. In fact, if you think the worse, you'd probably just assume the rules would become increasingly more draconian.
 
I don't know how many visa-holders or other non-citizens have become a burden on the Thai government, like getting into accidents or becoming sick, or even committing crimes while living here without having enough funds to care for themselves. I always hear people say "not many," but I really don't know.
 
In any event, and for whatever reason or even no reason at all, this is the Thai's country, and they'll make the laws they think will serve their country (or themselves) best.

Cadaver obedience, the Thai elite not even knowing there own people


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[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

!.  For the income method- they could use what they suggested OR use pension letters; plus overseas bank account summaries plus

Would that apply just to US citizens, or would it be open for all nationalities.

 

Pension letters and overseas bank statements in 37 different languages!

You can't be serious.

Perhaps we could have a delegate from every Embassy, at every Immigration office to help translate the documents.

[JackThompson]

To be clear, I am glad you posted your report.  Reports are good, even if policies shift from what you were told/shown, don't apply at this or that office, etc.

 

17 minutes ago, billsmart said:

It doesn't matter WHY Thailand wants to change the rules on who and under what conditions and qualifications they will allow non-citizens to visit, and especially live in their country for an extended period. In fact, if you think the worse, you'd probably just assume the rules would become increasingly more draconian.

Yes, ala "pay us off" - OR - "draconian."

 

Quote

I don't know how many visa-holders or other non-citizens have become a burden on the Thai government, like getting into accidents or becoming sick, or even committing crimes while living here without having enough funds to care for themselves. I always hear people say "not many," but I really don't know.

 

In any event, and for whatever reason or even no reason at all, this is the Thai's country, and they'll make the laws they think will serve their country (or themselves) best.

Not sure which part of the "they" is doing it - it certainly is not helpful to the Thais losing business and jobs by our being forced out one segment at a time - preventing the spending of foreign-sourced capital into the country to support those businesses / jobs.  There is no explanation I have yet heard which could possibly place these policy changes into a "service to country" category.

 

I agree we have to deal with what the guys in uniforms dish out, regardless.  I also think it is best for us to understand their corrupt motivations, in order to find the best approach to dealing with them - rather than pretending some fantasy about them "doing good for the country" or whatever, and thinking "jumping through hoops to prove we are honest/genuine" is what they are after.  It isn't.

 

More like - "pay us or dance for our amusement" (setup: crusty owes money to the mob and ...")

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by JackThompson

[wobalt]

Would that apply just to US citizens, or would it be open for all nationalities.
 
Pension letters and overseas bank statements in 37 different languages!
You can't be serious.
Perhaps we could have a delegate from every Embassy, at every Immigration office to help translate the documents.

Nonsense. That will be done at the embassies!


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[Tanoshi]

10 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Again not what is written but whatever.

Agree in the new order, but I was told 1st time applicants only.

3 months thereafter, same as the existing order.

 

That isn't my main concern, it's the 800K for 3 months after, then 400K for the remainder that surely cannot be correct.

That contradicts the 800K requirement they suggest you need as sufficient funds for 'expenditure' throughout a year as a retiree.

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

That contradicts the 800K requirement they suggest you need as sufficient funds for 'expenditure' throughout a year as a retiree.

For those months you have to live like a married man on 400,000!

[billsmart]

There are two people I don't argue with when I'm going into their office for service: my immigration officer and my dentist. ????

[ivor bigun]

For those months you have to live like a married man on 400,000!

In that case might as well go down the marriage visa route

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[Tanoshi]

3 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

For those months you have to live like a married man on 400,000!

In celibacy I assume.   ????

[rott]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Your downfall, I don't see Immigrations need to increase the workload more than they have to and play 'Mother' to expats.

You have to be joking. "Play mother to expats" where do you get that from.?

 

I have had good experiences at a small office where the staff (well one in particular) have been friendly, informative and helpful but still wanting copies of things never previously mentioned. But also I have known them to be surly, unhelpful and seriously awkward in other places. Judging by posts on here many have had experiences of the latter.

 

"Play mother"? Are you deliberately trying to destroy your credibility.?

 

 

 

[Thaidream]

21 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Would that apply just to US citizens, or would it be open for all nationalities.

 

Pension letters and overseas bank statements in 37 different languages!

You can't be serious.

Perhaps we could have a delegate from every Embassy, at every Immigration office to help translate the documents.

Quite easy to do- the Chinese applicant uses the  translation service recommended by the Chinese Embassy and gets their documents translated to Thai or English just like they do right now.

 

Each applicant uses the translator service recommended by his Embassy whether it be Chinese; Russian; Urdu or whatever. Then takes  their translated documents to the Immigration Office who reads them  in either Thai or English. What do you think they have been doing since the last 100 years?

 

The Us Embassy requires documentation from Thais who wish to go to the US  to be translated into English

 

My Thai Step Dau recently emigrated to France to marry= all Thai and English documents had to be translated to French.

 

Do you really think I expect Thai Immigration to read Romanian. I don't even expect them to read English and would be prepared to have all documentation translated to Thai. We are lucky the majority do read English.

 

 

[DepDavid]

It's minimum of 800k per annum between funds and income.
You can immediately spend the monthly incomes, but the question of if, or how much could be withdrawn from the funds within a year depends on the combination of both and only if above the 800K minimum requirement.
I gave examples only of instances where you could or could not draw down on the funds.
 
If you have 600K in the bank, you only need a monthly income of 17K to meet the 800K requirement, but you couldn't withdraw any of your funds, to do so would mean you haven't maintained a combination of 800K throughout the year.
 
If you had 600K in the bank, but transferred a monthly income of 30K, that would be a total of 960K annually.
You can spend the 30K each month, but in the event of an unseen emergency, you could now withdraw up to 160K from your funds and still maintain the 800K requirement throughout the year.

So if I have 600k in Thai bank I need to deposit 200k over 12 months but not touch it so the following year then I have 800k in the bank at time of extension? That makes no sense.


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[onera1961]

4 hours ago, skatewash said:

The rules are stated for monthly income, not weekly income.  Assuming you get 4 weeks per month your monthly income will be 60k baht.  The least favorable way to calculate this is 12x60k=720, leaving you 80k baht short, which is not covered by your 60k baht in the bank that you maintain all year long.  I do understand that over the course of the year you will have been transferring an additional 4x15k baht, but the least favorable way to calculate the formula is to take the lowest amount transferred into the account in a particular month and then multiply that by 12 to get your annual income, and then subtract that amount from 800K and the result is the amount you must keep as a minimum balance in a savings account the year round to compensate for the shortfall in your annual income.

 

In other words, because you are sending an extra 60k baht over the course of the year it does not contribute to the minimum monthly deposit (which is still only 60k).  Effectively, you would be short due to the way annual income is calculated.

Ok so, instead of 60K in the second account, I can bump it to 80K. To be on safe side, I can make it 100K. Is that will be OK? I think so. I can keep 100K through out the year. If due to currency fluctuations, $500USD becomes 10,000 baht (many thousands have to leave due to insufficient income). I can bump my second account to 320K. To be on safe side, I can make it up to 350K. So I have to leave 350K in the second account throughout the year and I will be OK when most people we will be leaving Thailand. Just doing my plan what is the least amount of money I must have when I start receiving my SS. I can spend all my savings now and at least I have to keep 350K to survive in Thailand. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by onera1961

[brokenbone]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

An Embassy letter!

yes, i meant: with an embassy letter confirming my disability pension, do i still need to prove monthly transfer or not ?

i still need to complement pension with a bank deposit to meet 800k , but i wont resort to montly transfers

Edited February 14, 2019 by brokenbone

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

yes, i meant: with an embassy letter confirming my disability pension, do i still need to prove monthly transfer or not ?

Well what your Embassy requires is one thing, but there is no need to prove transfers to Thailand to immigration. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by jacko45k

[skatewash]

18 minutes ago, DepDavid said:

So if I have 600k in Thai bank I need to deposit 200k over 12 months but not touch it so the following year then I have 800k in the bank at time of extension? That makes no sense.


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Here's my understanding:

 

Minimum Bank Balance = 600,000

Annual Income = 200,000 (800,000 - 600,000)

Minimum Monthly Deposit = 16,666 (200,000/12)

 

The Minimum Bank Balance has to be maintained year round.

 

The Minimum Monthly Deposit can be withdrawn from the account immediately after being deposited each month.

 

In this sense you are maintaining 800,000 for the entire year:

600,000 being held in a bank and

200,000 being promised as your annual income of which 16,666 is actually deposited in your account each month, after which it is immediately available for spending.

[chang50]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

If they follow the rules, you will be fine according to the rules en-force when you received your extension.  The problem is, no one knows if IOs in any office will follow the rules or not - and any means of appealing a bad-decision are limited to non-existent. 

 

Some who have applied in other offices have been told they are subject to the "new rules" - even before those rules are slated to go into effect.  If they didn't reset your 90-day reporting and tell you to come back and show your bank-book again at that time, this is a good sign.  As well, Jomtien have been traditionally "friendly" with retirement extensions.

 

But, there is simply no guarantee of future behavior since there is no enforcement of "stick to the rules as written" down the chain-of-command.

 

But, but but ... you could have "gotten away" with spending your foreign-sourced capital into the country for an entire year without immigration forcing you to keep a certain bank balance during the interim!  The horror of the thought of such occurring is beyond words!! 

 

Making 4x agent-payments /yr will be OK in that scenario, though.

Thanks no resetting of 90 days in fact I did a report at the same time and nothing was said.

[Kenny202]

Might be a good idea to start a pinned closed thread. Summarise what we know now ie: opening post and add updates as they are received and known as fact. 

 

The last 27 pages could have been answered with "refer opening post" and things are just getting more confusing, particularly for people who haven't read every post. Using property as collateral for 800k? It's not really that difficult is it? The only thing really that has changed is the milestone requirement for the 800 / 400k lump sum requirement in the bank and that income method does not have to be from a pension anymore. Essentially Marriage and parent visas are the same. As far as demanding answers from the OP as to how your local bank will manage verification of overseas transfers and how your local IO will interpret the new rules is ridiculous. We all know this will vary from office to office and in fact the officer you deal with. This is your responsibility to do some investigation and sort this out yourself. 

 

The way I see it many will not be affected. Those on marriage visas and those who already have 800k sitting in the bank year round already. This would be a great percentage of us. The guys who will be most affected are the ones who do not have the funds required and were before getting embassy letters. I make no judgements here. Financial bad luck could happen to any of us here. If you are low on funds use the combo or income method. It's not ideal but its doable. The good thing here is you can draw the funds straight out again and live on them...and you do need money to live on right? There really is no need to have 800k in the bank to live here and if some of us use our heads you may be in a better financial position than before re using agents. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Kenny202