Sold My House - No Money?

[JusMe]

I did post in the regional forum asking for information about contacting the police in Ban Phe, Rayong, about the possibility of fraud regarding money from the sale of my house, but perhaps someone here can advise me.

 

I'm not in Thailand anymore, and managed to get my house in Ban Phe sold last October, but the estate agent hasn't forwarded any money at all from that sale, and isn't responding to emails.  Obviously, it's far too difficult and expensive to make the trip to actually visit him, so perhaps there's some way I can ask the RTP in Ban Phe or Rayong to investigate the possibility of theft or fraud?

 

Not saying yet that this is what's occurred, and not naming the agent in Ban Phe, which is small enough that there are only two that I know of and he's the smaller, but anyone advise something other than writing it all off as a learning experience?

[BestB]

What do you mean it’s too expansive to make a trip ? So $3000-5000 is too expansive to recover few hundred thousand dollars?

 

why would police or anyone take any action from unknown person over the phone?

 

lastly, you did not own the house , but company did where you were a minor shareholder with a Thai holding 51%. 

 

Couod be the agent, could be the accountant, could be the shareholde, could be all 3, could be nothing as sending money overseas is not simple

[JusMe]

Total amount is a bit under 1.2 million baht, so the hassle and expense isn't enough compensation to go through the flight and accommodation and time and all the rest.

 

I had the house up for sale for quite a long time, and the agent sent me papers for signing for its sale, but didn't actually tell me when the sale went through, and hasn't contacted me since.  I only discovered the fact of the sale by finding it on his website as SOLD.

 

Commission?  Sure - manage to send me a bank transfer, and you can have 50,000 baht.  PM if you want to pursue the matter.

[JusMe]

3 minutes ago, BestB said:

What do you mean it’s too expansive to make a trip ? So $3000-5000 is too expansive to recover few hundred thousand dollars?

lastly, you did not own the house , but company did where you were a minor shareholder with a Thai holding 51%. 

Couod be the agent, could be the accountant, could be the shareholde, could be all 3, could be nothing as sending money overseas is not simple

Not anywhere near a few hundred thousand.  1.2 million baht is about 50k.  And I did own the house, just leased the land it was on in a gated community.  The leaseholder was paid out and the house itself was sold to someone who obtained a new lease for the land.

 

So, no shareholder, no accountant, just the agent.  And sending that amount of money really isn't all that difficult, particularly as I do have the papers for the initial transfer of money into Thailand for the purchase of the house nine years ago.

[BestB]

12 minutes ago, JusMe said:

Not anywhere near a few hundred thousand.  1.2 million baht is about 50k.  And I did own the house, just leased the land it was on in a gated community.  The leaseholder was paid out and the house itself was sold to someone who obtained a new lease for the land.

 

So, no shareholder, no accountant, just the agent.  And sending that amount of money really isn't all that difficult, particularly as I do have the papers for the initial transfer of money into Thailand for the purchase of the house nine years ago.

Well ... you know it all, so you should be able to sort it out ????

[JusMe]

2 minutes ago, BestB said:

Well ... you know it all, so you should be able to sort it out ????

If I actually knew it all, I wouldn't have posted here asking for help.

 

So, thanks for all your help in posting the response.

[sanemax]

Get in touch with Sharky in Pattaya

[Inn Between]

I don't know where you'd be coming from, but out of curiosity, I just looked online using Kayak, specifying a flight from Toronto Canada leaving next Tues (Apr 2) and returning one week later (Apr 9). I was shocked to see Eva offering that round trip for $C946, and there were some other ones for under $C900. I've never seen prices so low. I'd think spending $C900 to recover $C50,000 would be well worth it. Personally I like Eva, and those flights even have only 1 short stopover, Seems like a no-brainer to me, 

 

Then again, maybe you're so darned rich that $50,000 just isn't enough to bother with. ????

Edited March 27, 2019 by Inn Between

[JusMe]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Get in touch with Sharky in Pattaya

Who's "Sharky" and how would I get in touch with him if he/it's in Pattaya and I'm not even in Thailand?

[JusMe]

Just now, Inn Between said:

I don't know where you'd be coming from, but out of curiosity, I just looked online using Kayak, specifying a flight from Toronto Canada leaving next Tues (Apr 2) and returning one week later (Apr 9). I was shocked to see Eva offering that round trip for $C946, and there were some other ones for under $C900. I've never seen prices so low. I'd think spending $C900 to recover $C50,000 would be well worth it. Personally I like Eva, and those flights even have only 1 short stopover, Seems like a no-brainer to me, 

I'd have to do connections from Edmonton, and the price you indicate is about right, but obviously doesn't include all the extras like accommodation, travel between BKK and Ban Phe, plus all the hassle involved, and whatever might be involved in actually collecting that $C50k, if it can be collected.  Don't even know if the agent has absconded or is just ignoring my emails.  EVA is pretty good, although in the past I've gone through Seattle and then Aseana.

[sanemax]

6 minutes ago, JusMe said:

Who's "Sharky" and how would I get in touch with him if he/it's in Pattaya and I'm not even in Thailand?

Webseach "Sharky pattaya" contact him on  facebook

[Inn Between]

1 minute ago, JusMe said:

I'd have to do connections from Edmonton, and the price you indicate is about right, but obviously doesn't include all the extras like accommodation, travel between BKK and Ban Phe, plus all the hassle involved, and whatever might be involved in actually collecting that $C50k, if it can be collected.  Don't even know if the agent has absconded or is just ignoring my emails.  EVA is pretty good, although in the past I've gone through Seattle and then Aseana.

Don't get me wrong. I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but it almost sounds like you're making excuses when you say that. Even if your week in Thailand took a bit of effort and cost you another $1000, isn't a profit of $48,000 worth it? And on a moral note, don't you feel some duty to prevent a thief from being successful (on your nickel) and give him the idea to do it again as Farang are easy targets?

[sanemax]

1 minute ago, Inn Between said:

Don't get me wrong. I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but it almost sounds like you're making excuses when you say that. Even if your week in Thailand took a bit of effort and cost you another $1000, isn't a profit of $48,000 worth it? And on a moral note, don't you feel some duty to prevent a thief from being successful (on your nickel) and give him the idea to do it again as Farang are easy targets?

I doubt that the estate agent would just hand the money over 

[Inn Between]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

I doubt that the estate agent would just hand the money over 

The OP has indicated that he wants the police to get involved, and the only way that's going to happen is if he goes to them with the appropriate documentation to support all he's claimed here. Nothing is going to happen from Canada. 

 

Of course, there are no guarantees that his efforts will be successful, but if all he says is legit, he will have access to legal methods and institutions to get his money. Personally, if in that situation and I didn't at least make an effort, I'd feel I'd done myself (and others) a big disservice. 

 

I think I've done my duty in providing some helpful info and advise, so I have absolutely nothing more to say on the matter, except to wish the OP good luck and urge him to make the effort. 

[JusMe]

Inn Between said:  "Even if your week in Thailand took a bit of effort and cost you another $1000, isn't a profit of $48,000 worth it? And on a moral note, don't you feel some duty to prevent a thief from being successful (on your nickel) and give him the idea to do it again as Farang are easy targets?"

 

First, it wouldn't be a profit - rather a recovery as I obviously had to spend in order to buy the house in the first place.  And by now, I've partially mentally written it off as an investment loss.  Not welcome, obviously, but a cost of doing "business" in Thailand, where I haven't been now for about five years, with no desire whatsoever of returning.

 

The agent himself is farang, a Swede who's lived in Thailand for more than twenty years and has a Thai partner, both personal and business, in who's name the business is registered.

 

And, as SaneMax has said: "I doubt that the estate agent would just hand the money over "  No, as he's not sent it by bank transfer yet, and hasn't answered emails over the past long while, somehow I doubt he'd simply reach into a drawer if I walked into his office.

 

I suggested police as I had no other ideas.  Likely only possible if I walked into the police station in Ban Phe, as Inn Between suggested, with the documentation, and even then, who knows when anything could be accomplished, or even if anything could happen.  I could spend months sitting there waiting and trying to get something done legit using "legal methods and institutions" and end up only having spent a lot of time, extra money, and undergone massive hassles and stress to accomplish ....

 

Hoping someone here might have a practical suggestion for me, or at least commiseration!

 

[Peterw42]

OP, you owned access to a structure on land that belongs to someone else, then gave up any access to that land when you gave up the lease to the land.

I dont think you had anything to sell after giving up the lease. The structure on the property is worthless unless you have access to the land.

 

Its the lease you buy/sell, not the structure on it.

 

You paid keymoney for a lease, access to whatever was on the property, structure, trees, etc.

 

Structures dont have ownership titles. 

 

If you can advise what documentation you received when you think you bought a house, and what documentation you signed for the agent, maybe people can advise a course of action.

 

[balo]

6 hours ago, JusMe said:

The agent himself is farang, a Swede who's lived in Thailand for more than twenty years and has a Thai partner, both personal and business, in who's name the business is registered.

Can you give us his name ? I have friends in the Scandinavian community that could look into this. If it's really a scam and he's a part of it, the police and Big Joke should be very interested in this case. 

[steven100]

[Khaeng Mak]

Just get someone you know in Thailand to visit the guy in his office.

 

Of if you don't know anyone speak to the local Tourist Police.

 

Why are you only relying on emails?

Edited March 28, 2019 by Khaeng Mak

[scubascuba3]

There was a similar story on another thread, eventually the seller managed to get the agent to send some/all the proceeds over, perhaps someone can remember the thread and details. Perhaps the same agent

[worgeordie]

You should've come over when the sale was been made,signed the documents

and collected your money then,surely you must have know all the scams that

go on here.

regards worgeordie

[BestB]

8 hours ago, sanemax said:

Webseach "Sharky pattaya" contact him on  facebook

Tim is back in Oz, hardly ever posts on FB any longer and Is seriously unwell

[scubascuba3]

Tim is back in Oz, hardly ever posts on FB any longer and Is seriously unwell

With what?

[JusMe]

I would name him here, but I think there's a policy about naming-and-shaming that would delete my posts, so if someone can make personal contact, PM me and I'll let you know.

 

It's not enough money (about 1.2 mil baht) to warrant taking the chance on flying over, staying for a while, and trying to get it myself.  And now I don't know anyone there at all, which is why I'm pretty much dependant on digital contact.  Can't even get an email address for the RTP, although that might not do much more than waste some digits.

 

And no, this is not a troll.  The money is stuck there, somewhere, and if I can get it, great.  Particularly if someone here can give me a bit of a hand on it.

[BestB]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

1 hour ago, BestB said:

Tim is back in Oz, hardly ever posts on FB any longer and Is seriously unwell

With what?

He had a neck/spine  surgery not too long ago, things kind of went down hill from there. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by BestB

[Delight]

 From what you say the land/house are now  not legally yours.

The land was leased.

So how was the house legally yours?

Does your name feature at any land office?

[Destiny1990]

21 hours ago, JusMe said:

Who's "Sharky" and how would I get in touch with him if he/it's in Pattaya and I'm not even in Thailand?

Rumor has it that sharky went to Cambodia searching for his golden necklace.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Destiny1990

[JusMe]

3 hours ago, Delight said:

 From what you say the land/house are now  not legally yours.

The land was leased.

So how was the house legally yours?

Does your name feature at any land office?

The land was leased through a management company, but I bought and owned the house on it.  Yes, it was registered with some government office, presumably the "land office."  Of course, now that the house has been sold and the new owner has a new lease with the management company, I no longer legally own it.

[manarak]

12 minutes ago, JusMe said:

The land was leased through a management company, but I bought and owned the house on it.  Yes, it was registered with some government office, presumably the "land office."  Of course, now that the house has been sold and the new owner has a new lease with the management company, I no longer legally own it.

you can prove your previous ownership of the house, if as you say it was "registered":

 

Thailand, Civil and Commercial Code:

 

SUPERFICIES

Section 1410. The owner of a piece of land may create a right of superficies in favour of another person by giving him the right to own, upon or under the land, buildings, structures or plantations.

Section 1411. Unless otherwise provided in the act creating it, the right of superficies is transferable and transmissible by way of inheritance.

Section 1412. A right of superficies may be created either for a period of time or for life of the owner of the land or the superficiary.

If it is created for a period of time, the provisions of Section 1403 paragraph 3 shall apply mutatis mutandis.

Section 1413. If no period of time has been fixed, the right of superficies may be terminated at any time by any partner giving reasonable notice to the other. But when rent is to be paid, either one year's previous notice must be given or rent for one year paid.

Section 1414. If the superficiary fails to comply with essential conditions specified in the act creating superficies or, when rent is to be paid, he fails to pay it for two consecutive years, his right of superficies may be terminated.

Section 1415. The right of superficies is not extinguished by destruction of the buildings, structures or plantations even if caused by force majeure.

Section 1416. When the right of superficies is extinguished, the superficiary may take away his buildings, structures or plantations, provided he restores the land to its former condition.

If instead of permitting the removal of the buildings, structures or plantations, the owner of the land notifies his intention to buy the at a market value, the superficiary may not refuse the offer except on reasonable ground.

[KittenKong]

21 hours ago, JusMe said:

Hoping someone here might have a practical suggestion for me, or at least commiseration!

You could try contacting the local branch of the Office of Consumer Protection: http://www.ocpb.go.th/

 

I dont know how easy that would be from abroad.