My 10th retirement visa renewal

[Joe Mcseismic]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

The 90 day reporting is in section 37 of the immigration act that was written in 1979.

Much older than you seem to think.

I stand corrected, though, I don't think it was enforced for a long time.

[ROBINPATTAYA]

On 4/5/2019 at 10:51 PM, Jingthing said:

Jomtien has been ordering every income method retirement extension applicant since March to come in after 90 days AFTER their extension to show their bank book has not gone one baht under 800K baht. They are simply ENFORCEMENT the police order about post seasoning. That's the legal justification. Sorry to say as onerous as this is, it is completely legally justified.

 

Legal consequences of showing and being under? We don't know but the general assumption is that the current annual extension would be then CANCELLED.


Consequences of not showing for an ordered money showing if not abroad? Again, we don't know but I also think it's fair to assume that they wouldn't be above making house calls. 

 

The new immigration rules -- no joke. (Groan.)

Legal consequences of showing and being under? We don't know but the general assumption is that the current annual extension would be then CANCELLED.

I was in Jomtien Immigration yesterday. The IO clearly stated that if the bank balance drops below 800,000, your Visa will be immediately cancelled

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, ROBINPATTAYA said:

I was in Jomtien Immigration yesterday. The IO clearly stated that if the bank balance drops below 800,000, your Visa will be immediately cancelled

And if you fail to show up?

[ThaiBunny]

1 minute ago, ROBINPATTAYA said:

Legal consequences of showing and being under? We don't know but the general assumption is that the current annual extension would be then CANCELLED. I was in Jomtien Immigration yesterday. The IO clearly stated that if the bank balance drops below 800,000, your Visa will be immediately cancelled

Did you ask the IO how s/he will know that the bank balance has dropped below 800,000 so your visa can be immediately cancelled?

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, ROBINPATTAYA said:

Legal consequences of showing and being under? We don't know but the general assumption is that the current annual extension would be then CANCELLED.

I was in Jomtien Immigration yesterday. The IO clearly stated that if the bank balance drops below 800,000, your Visa will be immediately cancelled

Thanks for that report. I had ASSUMED as much but yours, I think, is the first report from anyone in any immigration office that's been posted here.

I've been focused on this because I think it's very important.

I think we need to know the specific legal consequences for violating these new and onerous POST seasoning requirements.

So it's cancelled. Then what? How many days to leave? Blacklisted? We need details!

Also what about going under one baht AFTER the 800K post seasoning, in the 400K phase.

Same consequences?
These rules are onerous enough without the public being in the DARK about the actual specific LEGAL CONSEQUENCES of going under during the post seasoning periods.

We know the situation for PRE seasoning non-compliance. That means simply you won't be eligible for the next extension.

What we don't know yet are the specific legal consequences of failure to comply with the post seasoning (800K and 400K). 

What if someone is in the 400K phase and wants to leave Thailand and drains their account? Are they then in illegal alien status for all the time BEFORE they actually leave?
 

[ROBINPATTAYA]

3 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Did you ask the IO how s/he will know that the bank balance has dropped below 800,000 so your visa can be immediately cancelled?

They give you a paper with a date stamped on the bottom for you to return with an updated bank book. There was no mention of a bank letter, just an updated book.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

And if you fail to show up?

I assume that they will try to find people that don't show up, within their staffing limitations. 

[NoshowJones]

42 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

I have to agree with the 90 day reporting requirement. Nonsensical, a waste of time for both the retiree and immigration and ineffective at keeping "the bad guys out".

If I remember rightly, it was introduced during an election year and xenophobia always plays well to the masses.

 

It's well known that immigration try to push people from marriage extensions to retirement extensions. It's less work for them and it can be approved at the local office.

There has been a lot of improvement at the local immigration office over the last twenty years. The introduction of the Volunteers to check paperwork and the ticketing system are the obvious ones. I remember when it used to be a wild scrum. The experience is much better now.

Yes I agree with you, but I think you are referring to Immigration offices in tourist areas which also have a lot of expats like Pattaya and Bangkok, but up here in the Boonies, there are not queues of people waiting, you just have to hope that you don't get an IO who got out of the wrong side of bed in the morning.

[ROBINPATTAYA]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Thanks for that report. I had ASSUMED as much but yours, I think, is the first report from anyone in any immigration office that's been posted here.

I've been focused on this because I think it's very important.

I think we need to know the specific legal consequences for violating these new and onerous POST seasoning requirements.

So it's cancelled. Then what? How many days to leave? Blacklisted? We need details!

Also what about going under one baht AFTER the 800K post seasoning, in the 400K phase.

Same consequences?
These rules are onerous enough without the public being in the DARK about the actual specific LEGAL CONSEQUENCES of going under during the post seasoning periods.

We know the situation for PRE seasoning non-compliance. That means simply you won't be eligible for the next extension.

What we don't know yet are the specific legal consequences of failure to comply with the post seasoning (800K and 400K). 

What if someone is in the 400K phase and wants to leave Thailand and drains their account? Are they then in illegal alien status for all the time BEFORE they actually leave?
 

We cannot assume anything because I am sure that the Offers have no idea what all the rules are other than the obvious ones. Remember they probably don't get any training as rules change, they operate as we do & assume the interpretations.

[jacko45k]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I assume that they will try to find people that don't show up, within their staffing limitations. 

Not very practical though is it? There will be people out of the country too. It isn't only the combination method of Retirement Extension that leaves us with quite a few questions. 

 

A person who had to go into hospital and spend some of the money, goes back and cannot show the 800k has remained untouched (he may even have spent some and replenished it).  Is he threatened with Ext cancellation and perhaps a 7 days to get out? That is hardly likely to remove the incentive for the 'tips'.

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

None that I'm aware of and I'm aware of many. However, I haven't checked out northkoreavisa.com.

Do other countries require an expat to give passport details upon hotel registration that are fed to a central data base so they can track you?  What don't you guys travel?

[Vacuum]

On 4/6/2019 at 8:16 AM, robertson468 said:

Visited Spain twice in the last three years.  Do you really want to go there?  That is definately a Country "buyer beware" if you are thinking of buying a house/condo there.  There is also loads of half completed developments that have been abandoned by the Owners who went bankrupt a few years ago, leaving eye sores all over the landscape.  You might also want to wait until Brexit is done and dusted.

lol. Most of us would probably die of old age before that's "done and dusted"

[ubonjoe]

A inflammatory baiting post has been removed. A repeat of it will result in formal warning.

[ThaiBunny]

1 hour ago, ROBINPATTAYA said:

They give you a paper with a date stamped on the bottom for you to return with an updated bank book. There was no mention of a bank letter, just an updated book.

So it won't be immediately cancelled when it drops below 800,000 - it will be cancelled when they find out which could be weeks later

[CMNightRider]

11 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Every millionaire has more money than the tax people who audit them every year.  That folks is a fact too.  You would think everyone would be used to bureaucratic nonsense by now but you seem to think it is confined to Thailand.  It's everywhere, it's everywhere.  Get over it.  

This isn't a tax audit we are talking about.  This is Thai Immigrations anti-western nonsensical regulations imposed on westerners.  Whereas the countries these westerners come from treat Thais very well.

 

What should be an eye opener for every US citizen married to a Thai, is the US citizen living in Thailand, has to reapply for a marriage visa every year, and jump through some of the most ridculas hoops year after year.  

 

Unlike the Thai spouse, who once they have their US visa, is not burdened with further reporting rules, TM forms, nor is required to reapply every year for their US visa.  Then to top that off, once the Thai spouse is in the US for three years, they can apply for US citizenship.

 

It always astounds me every time a western expat living in Thailand, defends Thai Immigrations archaic rules and regulations imposed on their fellow citizens.  

 

Thai Immigrations latest scheme to take advantage of westerners to benefit their third world banking institutions was the last straw for many westerners, and should be pointed out to those who may not have the cognitive ability to see what these buffoons are attempting to do.  

 

One would have to look long and hard to find another country (North Korea comes to mind) who imposes such restrictive, archaic rules, and regulations on foreigners who have the means to contribute to their country financially and culturally.    

 

  

 

    

 

 

[Pattaya46]

11 hours ago, possum1931 said:

// most people who think that 90 day reports are no problem are the ones who live in a big town or city, and very easy and convenient to travel to.

… or those who make it by mail or by Internet. 

Can't you do it this way?

Not many offices who don't accept it at least by mail (I think )

[Thailand Outcast]

3 hours ago, jacko45k said:

So a person who has paid 1900 baht and has 800,000 baht sitting in a bank account, that he can access if he needs to, has wasted  his time, compared to one who has paid 20,000 baht that he will never see again?  

Also some of those who use an agent also  need to turn up at immigration, pick up their passport and have their picture taken and name entered into records. 

It's a choice, I see both sides, anyhow, I shall go out and spend the 18,000 baht I saved, the only people enjoying themselves more, I guess, will be spending 780,000 baht. 

Firstly, the 800k is tied up for 5 months.  400k is tied up forever.  Of course, you can withdraw any or all of it, but you will not receive next year's visa, so that's as good as 400k you will never see again, for as long as you wish to live in Thailand. 

 

You will get between 6% to 8% return if your 800k is in a diversified, non aggressive, managed fund, in your home country.  Let's just pick the average of 7% for this example.

 

You get 1.5% from a Thai bank for your 800k.

 

Here's the maths.

 

800,000 baht x 7% = 56,000 baht per year.  (return from a fund)

 

800,000 baht x 1.5% = 12,000 baht per year.  (return from a Thai bank)

 

56,000 baht - 12,000 baht = 44,000 baht.  (this is what you are forced to "lose" under the 800k method)

 

44,000 baht + 1900 baht (visa fee) = 45,900 baht.  (this is the total cost to an expat using the 800k method, and they have lost the use of their money through seasoning and have to deal with all the paperwork)

 

45,900 baht / 12 months = 3.825 baht. (visa cost per month to live in Thailand under the 800k method)

 

versus

 

20,000 baht / 12 = 1,666 baht.  (visa cost per month to live in Thailand if you use an agent, and there is no seasoning to worry about, and you maintain control of your finances, which are left in a safe western country, and no paperwork to do)

 

3,825 baht - 1,666 baht = 2,159 baht.  This is the extra cost to people using the 800k method, or, what people using the agents save, per month.

 

Remember, we are talking about the same "product."  Not an inferior visa class.  

 

Of course, there are other issues to think about, like how your beneficiaries get the money if it's in a Thai bank etc, but the above shows the loss / savings over one method versus the other method.

 

I am lucky, I have some time to sit back and see what happens after the 90 days, with those who have used an agent. 

 

To sum up, the 800k runs at a continual loss for the expat, as it doesn't even keep up with inflation.  

 

You say I don't see the 20,000 baht ever again, but you don't see the 44,000 baht in losses, that you will never earn each year, from being forced to lodge 800k into a Thai bank, at 1.5%, with 400k of it you can never use again.    

 

Now, compare the 800k method to the visas offered in nearby countries, and you can see what a lousy deal this is.   

Edited April 11, 2019 by Thailand Outcast

[Peterw42]

9 minutes ago, Thailand Outcast said:

Firstly, the 800k is tied up for 5 months.  400k is tied up forever.  Of course, you can withdraw any or all of it, but you will not receive next year's visa, so that's as good as 400k you will never see again, for as long as you wish to live in Thailand. 

 

You will get between 6% to 8% return if your 800k is in a diversified, non aggressive, managed fund, in your home country.  Let's just pick the average of 7% for this example.

 

You get 1.5% from a Thai bank for your 800k.

 

Here's the maths.

 

800,000 baht x 7% = 56,000 baht per year.  (return from a fund)

 

800,000 baht x 1.5% = 12,000 baht per year.  (return from a Thai bank)

 

56,000 baht - 12,000 baht = 44,000 baht.  (this is what you are forced to "lose" under the 800k method)

 

44,000 baht + 1900 baht (visa fee) = 45,900 baht.  (this is the total cost to an expat using the 800k method, and they have lost the use of their money through seasoning and have to deal with all the paperwork)

 

45,900 baht / 12 months = 3.825 baht per months to live in Thailand under the 800k method.

 

versus

 

20,000 baht / 12 = 1,666 baht a month to live in Thailand if you use an agent, ad there is no seasoning to worry about, you maintain control of your finances, and no paperwork to do.

 

3,825 baht - 1,666 baht = 2,159 baht.  This is the extra cost to people using the 800k method, or, what people using the agents save.

 

Remember, we are talking about the same "product."  No an inferior visa class.  

 

Of course, there are other issues to think about, like how your beneficiaries get the money if it's in a Thai bank etc, but the above shows the loss / savings over one method versus the other method.

 

I am lucky, I have some time to sit back and see what happens after the 90 days, with those using an agent. 

 

To sum up, the 800k runs at a continually loss for the expat, as it doesn't even keep up with inflation.  

 

You say I don't see the 20,000 baht ever again, but you don't see the 44,000 baht in losses, that you will never see each year, from being forced to lodge 800k into a Thai bank, at 1.5%, with 400k of it you can never use again.     

Great examples, exactly the reasons I dont want to tie up the 800k in Thailand. 

Also 800k at 7% compound interest will literally double in 10 years, to be 1,600,000. (47 years at 1.5%)

Maybe those figures will help some understand, its nothing to do with being a cheap Charlie etc, its a matter of not throwing money away..

[Pattaya46]

22 minutes ago, Thailand Outcast said:

20,000 baht / 12 = 1,666 baht.  (visa cost per month to live in Thailand if you use an agent,

And how much for the cost of your lawyer and your deportation if ever caught for this extension illegally obtained ? 

[Thailand Outcast]

3 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

And how much for the cost of your lawyer and your deportation if ever caught for this extension illegally obtained ? 

I take your point.

 

I have never used an agent before.  Never needed to.  I was on the 65k method, and genuinely have over 65k a month income. 

 

It always surprised me the practice of a loan for 800k baht for a few hours was allowed to continue over the years, and whilst I saw the visa as being corruptly obtained, I never saw the visa itself as being illegal, as in, it was the exact same visa as someone with a seasoned 800k baht in the bank, not some type of forgery.   

 

The agents have been operating for years, and I have never heard of a case of an expat being arrested and deported for a visa obtained in this way. If you have, please post a link.

 

I truly thought the new laws would see the agents shut down, but they are operating as normal.  This leads me to believe the use of an agent is more or less state sanctioned, so I would find it hard to believe they would be deemed as "illegal visas" by the immigration department that actually issued them.  If this was to happen, wouldn't the immigration staff also be arrested for issuing them?  I doubt either would happen.  

 

Just on this point, we are yet to discover the fate of people who go under their 400k.  Do you think they will be arrested and deported?  Will they need a lawyer if detained at a 90 day report, showing their bank balance under 400k baht?  After all, they have breached a condition of their visas, that their bank balance never goes under 400k. 

 

Such a messy system, in such a corrupt country.  Amazing Thailand.  ???? 

 

 

 

 

[Peasandmash]

A lot of stuff here.

I try to keep it all in perspective. And to be honest it can be challenging at times.

It's one day a year I go to immigration. Maybe more if I want a certificate or leave the country, etc.

800k baht.. Is it a lot of money? I'm grateful for what I have, I know there are many that have far less.

Life presents situations that can be perceived as problems no matter where I live or what I have. Why should I use my energy to focus on these few things instead of the many things I do have. My health, enjoying the beautiful and tolerant Thai people and their wonderful country. Being able to actually see the air that I breath ????, etc, etc...

Best Wishes..

Sa wa dii pii mai

 

[Thailand Outcast]

13 minutes ago, Peasandmash said:

A lot of stuff here.

I try to keep it all in perspective. And to be honest it can be challenging at times.

It's one day a year I go to immigration. Maybe more if I want a certificate or leave the country, etc.

800k baht.. Is it a lot of money? I'm grateful for what I have, I know there are many that have far less.

Life presents situations that can be perceived as problems no matter where I live or what I have. Why should I use my energy to focus on these few things instead of the many things I do have. My health, enjoying the beautiful and tolerant Thai people and their wonderful country. Being able to actually see the air that I breath ????, etc, etc...

Best Wishes..

Sa wa dii pii mai

 

It would be great of some of that Thai tolerance would be shown by authorities here, but if they can't show tolerance, I would settle for some common sense.  ????

 

I don't like to see the air I breath, because if I can actually see it, then it's more than air I am breathing in.  ????

[marcusarelus]

11 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

This isn't a tax audit we are talking about.  This is Thai Immigrations anti-western nonsensical regulations imposed on westerners.  Whereas the countries these westerners come from treat Thais very well.

 

What should be an eye opener for every US citizen married to a Thai, is the US citizen living in Thailand, has to reapply for a marriage visa every year, and jump through some of the most ridculas hoops year after year.  

 

Unlike the Thai spouse, who once they have their US visa, is not burdened with further reporting rules, TM forms, nor is required to reapply every year for their US visa.  Then to top that off, once the Thai spouse is in the US for three years, they can apply for US citizenship.

 

It always astounds me every time a western expat living in Thailand, defends Thai Immigrations archaic rules and regulations imposed on their fellow citizens.  

 

Thai Immigrations latest scheme to take advantage of westerners to benefit their third world banking institutions was the last straw for many westerners, and should be pointed out to those who may not have the cognitive ability to see what these buffoons are attempting to do.  

 

One would have to look long and hard to find another country (North Korea comes to mind) who imposes such restrictive, archaic rules, and regulations on foreigners who have the means to contribute to their country financially and culturally.   

If there was another country with similar infrastructure and low cost of living and religious freedom where I could live with only having contact with Immigration for 20 minutes per year I would move there.  I have not changed my banking behavior for 20 years and it is not changed now.  There has been no increase in funds for me and that's what I look at my bank account.  

[jacko45k]

20 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

Firstly, the 800k is tied up for 5 months.  400k is tied up forever.  Of course, you can withdraw any or all of it, but you will not receive next year's visa, so that's as good as 400k you will never see again, for as long as you wish to live in Thailand. 

It would seem more expedient to simply leave 800k sitting in a FD account, and that is what I choose to do. As to the other points, you are guessing and actually contradicting the rules as they are written, albeit poorly. The only requirement I see to have  12 month retirement ext based on money in the bank issued, at the moment, is 2 months seasoning. No mention of 'next years visa'.

 

As to all that long winded stuff about investing and money on deposit. I am getting older and really don't worry about it.  

 

Nor is an agent obtained Extension the same product at all, it is an illegally obtained document based on lies, corruption and deception. You want to make money that way, that is your choice. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by jacko45k

[ROBINPATTAYA]

21 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

So it won't be immediately cancelled when it drops below 800,000 - it will be cancelled when they find out which could be weeks later

You are correct, maybe I worded that badly.

You show the updated book on your return 3 months after receiving your extension as per the date stamped on your form. 

If it has dropped below 800k during that period, your Visa is cancelled was  the threat, I wouldn't like to test it.

[Joe Mcseismic]

16 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

I take your point.

 

I have never used an agent before.  Never needed to.  I was on the 65k method, and genuinely have over 65k a month income. 

 

It always surprised me the practice of a loan for 800k baht for a few hours was allowed to continue over the years, and whilst I saw the visa as being corruptly obtained, I never saw the visa itself as being illegal, as in, it was the exact same visa as someone with a seasoned 800k baht in the bank, not some type of forgery.   

 

The agents have been operating for years, and I have never heard of a case of an expat being arrested and deported for a visa obtained in this way. If you have, please post a link.

 

I truly thought the new laws would see the agents shut down, but they are operating as normal.  This leads me to believe the use of an agent is more or less state sanctioned, so I would find it hard to believe they would be deemed as "illegal visas" by the immigration department that actually issued them.  If this was to happen, wouldn't the immigration staff also be arrested for issuing them?  I doubt either would happen.  

 

Just on this point, we are yet to discover the fate of people who go under their 400k.  Do you think they will be arrested and deported?  Will they need a lawyer if detained at a 90 day report, showing their bank balance under 400k baht?  After all, they have breached a condition of their visas, that their bank balance never goes under 400k. 

 

Such a messy system, in such a corrupt country.  Amazing Thailand.  ???? 

 

 

 

 

The visa is not illegal. Immigration officers have the right to waive the seasoning period if they so wish.

The money paid to them to do this is illegal, so, it would be the bribe giver and the bribe taker that are at legal risk.

As for the 800k borrowed for a day, this, too is not illegal. The visa recipient is in the clear.

Obviously, all this breaks the spirit of the law, but, it does not break the letter of the law.

[jacko45k]

4 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The visa is not illegal. Immigration officers have the right to waive the seasoning period if they so wish.

Then why do the seek to prevent this by requiring that money is maintained after the application is approved?

[yogi100]

On 4/6/2019 at 9:50 AM, rosst said:

I read this all the time, and I am pleased I chose to move to the Philippines a few years ago. 

The uncertainty and stress for good people who are following the rules is very poor, I feel for you. 

And we all know what they say about stress.

 

I toyed with the idea of retiring to the LOS when I quit work but the fear of expensive medical care made me think twice.

 

And this latest 800K malarkey has made me even more glad I decided against it.

 

I feel sorry for you blokes who are the targets of these delusional Thai bureaucrats and the bar owners. I bet your Thai womenfolk (and their families) aren't too crazy about the developments either especially if you're talking about quitting the LOS.

 

An English retiree chum of mine struggles to keep his 800K topped up and if he dies as he's a single man how can his relatives claim what's in his Thai bank. They probably do not even know where he lives in Thailand. It's just another racket as far as I can see cos who will get their hands on it if his brothers can't! As if we don't know!

 

He is now considering relocating or getting a ME tourist visa with proof of a pension from the London Embassy. I can never remember what they're called. That visa was £125 but it went up in one hit on the 1st April to £150. It's only £25 or around 1000B but it's just another little niggle that must be putting visitors off from coming to the LOS. I remember paying £14 for 1000B around 18 years ago! Those were the days.

 

It was worth settling in the LOS back then but the strong baht, rising prices and the general deterioration of the locals' attitudes towards us falangs has consigned all those ideas to history as far as I'm concerned.

 

I just visit instead and spend as little as I can. When a girl asks me for a drink in a bar unless I really fancy her I always ask how much and say 'Sorry too expensive'. And they move on to someone else.

 

We should all do that in whatever circumstances we find ourselves in. It might make 'em think! But it probably won't.

 

Half the time they no longer even ask you what your name is or where do you come from.

[Joe Mcseismic]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

Then why do the seek to prevent this by requiring that money is maintained after the application is approved?

You're right, they do, but, what is policy and what is actually done by the front-line immigration officers may not be the same.

As yet, this policy hasn't been tested as it's too soon, but, I'm sure that the agents in cahoots with their friendly IO will come to some work around. It's all about the money, if it wasn't you would be seeing hordes of IO's being moved to "inactive posts".

[Joe Mcseismic]

1 minute ago, yogi100 said:

It was worth settling in the LOS back then but the strong baht, rising prices and the general deterioration of the locals' attitudes towards us falangs has consigned all those ideas to history as far as I'm concerned.

Hold on a sec. You need to qualify that statement regarding Thai attitudes. This may be true with regard to policies being tightened, but, I have seen NO deterioration of attitudes towards myself from ordinary Thai people, or, for that matter immigration officers. Still very friendly, especially if you can communicate.

Here in Phuket, I would say that locals have actually got friendlier than before. I put this down to looking at us in a more favourable light after dealing with the hordes of mainland Chinese, Russians and increasingly people from the sub-continent.