Statins - sick of the side effects

[emptypockets]

6 hours ago, Saltire said:

About 10 years ago I had a bout of angina and after an angiogram underwent the procedure to insert 3 stents. I was instantly put on statins to 'reduce my risk', at the time due to claims that the risk could be reduced by as much as 36%. I had no side effects so carried on taking them thinking they were useful. 

 

This figure of 36% has since been well and truly debunked and Big Pharma were shown to have fudged the stats from the original study. The actual risk reduction is now stated as nearer to 1% reduction in risk of a heart event. There are lots of reputable videos on youtube on this topic.

 

I too now follow a keto diet started 2 years ago mainly to kick my diabetes into touch, and after all my bloods eventually fitting a normal profile I set about coming off meds. I took unofficial advice from a GP friend back in the UK who rarely now prescribes statins, and he recommended a gradual reduction over 2 or 3 months. I am now off stains for almost a year and while my cholesterol has gone up as expected, I focus on the minimal effect (1%) of taking them. I also came off all of my diabetes medicine in the same way after my HbA1c and fasting glucose normalised. I feel energised and and am also now 20 Kg lighter. My blood pressure is always in the lower half of normal, before it was high. I still take blood pressure meds and an aspirin a day but as my blood pressure is consistently good I will continue with them. Sounds at the very least you need to see if there is a more suitable statin for you, or as others have said, change your lifestyle if there is scope to do so.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Honestly, the 20kg weight reduction does wonders. I was always slim/skinny but as I grew older my weight ballooned from 75 to 120 kilo ( had a US girlfriend at the time - gee I miss the Philly cheese steaks!).

Went to the doc and he basically said you are a walking heart attack. Started on the lipidil and statins and stabilised my condition stabilised. A change at work saw me drop from 120 kg to 90 KG in six months - guess what everything came good!! Cholestoral, blood sugar etc etc.

Still a fat bastard again at 106kg but working on it!!

[emptypockets]

5 hours ago, CanadaSam said:

It isn't cholesterol or statins that will kill you, it is blocked arteries.

 

You can take statins right up to the day you die of a heart attack.

 

What I do is try and get an MRI or CT scan done every year or 18 months, and make sure the blockages are not serious.

 

This is because I believe the figures about the benefits of statins are fudged by big pharma.

you get a whole body MRI or CAT scan every year or 18 months?

 

I work in industry, we use predictive maintenance/failure mitigation techniques, check, measure interpret conditions. By the time equipment needs an MRI or CAT scan (and we do do similar things) the equipment is usually stuffed!!

The human body isn't much different.

Edited June 25, 2019 by emptypockets

[katana]

3 hours ago, tifino said:

another simple approach anybody can do for themselves, to help their arteries walls;

 

is to dump the Table Salt, The Sea Salts etc etc the refined stuff

 

 - and only take Himalayan (Pink) Course Salt

 

The Cholesterol problems that patients get reported to by their doctors, is all about the damage done to walls of arteries, from the sharp shards of the table saly crystals.

The Cholesterol build ups are really only the body's nature's BandAid, trying to repair the walls.

 

the Himalayan Rock Salt, from the Mines up in the mountains. It is of a diffewrent structure, that does not have the shards structure of the Sea Salts

 

If everyone changed to the Himalayan salts, many doctors will be out of a job...

 

When salt is taken into the body, it dissolves into solution in the water in your stomach and no longer has any crystal structure.

[cooked]

6 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Patients who took 80 milligrams of the drug Lipitor each day for five years saw a 16% reduction in having another stroke compared with patients who took a placebo. Patients on the cholesterol-lowering drug also experienced a 35% reduction in serious cardiac events.

 

https://www.webmd.com/stroke/news/20060809/stroke-patients-benefit-from-lipitor#1

We aren't talking about people that already had a CAV attack.

[cooked]

9 hours ago, tifino said:

another simple approach anybody can do for themselves, to help their arteries walls;

 

is to dump the Table Salt, The Sea Salts etc etc the refined stuff

 

 - and only take Himalayan (Pink) Course Salt

 

The Cholesterol problems that patients get reported to by their doctors, is all about the damage done to walls of arteries, from the sharp shards of the table saly crystals.

The Cholesterol build ups are really only the body's nature's BandAid, trying to repair the walls.

 

the Himalayan Rock Salt, from the Mines up in the mountains. It is of a diffewrent structure, that does not have the shards structure of the Sea Salts

 

If everyone changed to the Himalayan salts, many doctors will be out of a job...

 

Himalayan rock salt contains 98% ordinary table salt and too little of anything else to be of much use.

Table salt = NaCl and that's it, there isn't a "different structure". 

[Sheryl]

15 hours ago, Lazy Sod said:

I looked into Red Rice Yeast, but the active ingredient is a statin (same as used in lovastatin) and so in theory it can produce the same side effects.

Correct. Except that unlike commercial statins the amount contained is not uniform.

[Sheryl]

13 hours ago, tifino said:

another simple approach anybody can do for themselves, to help their arteries walls;

 

is to dump the Table Salt, The Sea Salts etc etc the refined stuff

 

 - and only take Himalayan (Pink) Course Salt

 

The Cholesterol problems that patients get reported to by their doctors, is all about the damage done to walls of arteries, from the sharp shards of the table saly crystals.

The Cholesterol build ups are really only the body's nature's BandAid, trying to repair the walls.

 

the Himalayan Rock Salt, from the Mines up in the mountains. It is of a diffewrent structure, that does not have the shards structure of the Sea Salts

 

If everyone changed to the Himalayan salts, many doctors will be out of a job...

 

 

Absolute nonsense. Salt - whether table salt or Himalyan or whatever - is NaCl (sodium chloride), an ionic compund that in water such as stomach acid and blood immediately breaks down into the two constituent parts, sodium and chloride ions (both of which are necessary in the human body) There are no "sharp shards" of anything in your blood.

 

There is a lot that is still not well understood about coronary artery disease, it is more complex than originally thought  and in addition to high levels of LDL and triglycerides, it appears that  inflammation plays an important role.

 

High LDL and triglycerides, and low HDl:LDL ratio, are risk factors though certainly not the only ones.

 

Excessive sodium intake in any form is a risk factor for hypertension which over time can damage the arteries.  The most common culprit is processed foods which all contain very large amounts of sodium.  Moderate use of table salt if you avoid processed food is fine for most people.

 

Causation of chronic conditions like CAD is always complex, there are no single causative agents like there is with many infectious diseases.

[simon43]

Commenting on the Himalayan salt sub-sub-topic, see Sheryl's excellent post above.  Salt is broken down into the 2 ions Sodium and Chloride.

 

For crystal shards of salt to possibly form, one would need these ions to recombine somehow in the blood into salt crystals.  How many atoms are there in 1 salt crystal? ==> about 1.2x1018 atoms, according to a web link that I found.  That's a lot of salt-recombining.....

 

What is different about Himalayan pink salt and 'ordinary' Sodium Chloride salt is that the former has very small quantities of trace elements which give it its pink colour.

[faraday]

1 minute ago, simon43 said:

Commenting on the Himalayan salt sub-sub-topic, see Sheryl's excellent post above.  Salt is broken down into the 2 ions Sodium and Chloride.

 

For crystal shards of salt to possibly form, one would need these ions to recombine somehow in the blood into salt crystals.  How many atoms are there in 1 salt crystal? ==> about 1.2x1018 atoms, according to a web link that I found.  That's a lot of salt-recombining.....

 

What is different about Himalayan pink salt and 'ordinary' Sodium Chloride salt is that the former has very small quantities of trace elements which give it its pink colour.

Thank you Simon & Sheryl....let's wait for his reply.

[Sheryl]

17 hours ago, Saltire said:

About 10 years ago I had a bout of angina and after an angiogram underwent the procedure to insert 3 stents. I was instantly put on statins to 'reduce my risk', at the time due to claims that the risk could be reduced by as much as 36%. I had no side effects so carried on taking them thinking they were useful. 

 

This figure of 36% has since been well and truly debunked and Big Pharma were shown to have fudged the stats from the original study. The actual risk reduction is now stated as nearer to 1% reduction in risk of a heart event. There are lots of reputable videos on youtube on this topic...

 

 

 

????????

Videos on yoputube are NOT a source of reputable scientific information.

 

There have been many randomized control studies that are. For a summary see

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21067804?dopt=Abstract

 

https://www.cochrane.org/CD004816/VASC_statins-primary-prevention-cardiovascular-disease

 

What is true, is that statins were initially over-hyped and whenever that happens, there is blow back.  At the present time they are recommended only for people with a history of cardiovascular disease or known risk factors, and as with any drug the benefits have to be weighed against the risks and disadvantages which will vary by patient.

 

It is certainly always better to reduce LDL and triglycerides through diet and exercise than with drugs if possible and for many - but not all! -- people this is possible.  However, some people simply cannot adhere to better diet and some people are genetically predisposed to dyslipidemias no matter what they eat or how trim and fit they are.

 

 

[myprivate]

This is an interesting documentary, I'm not saying it's correct, but I think it's good to review both sides. The most striking thing for me are the misleading statistics, somebody posted above that statins provide a "35% reduction in serious cardiac events" but according to this documentary that was taken from a study where the real difference was actually less than 1%.

 

 

[tifino]

20 minutes ago, faraday said:

Thank you Simon & Sheryl....let's wait for his reply.

To get thus sube sub topic from distracting further... my practical bottom line for keeping the sea salt intake down in preference to Himalayan; relates to the levels of pollution heavy metals etc more likely to be resident in the seasalt. 

[eezergood]

We just recently had our annual work medicals (conducted at BKK Phuket hospital) of the 5 males in the group, 3 where prescribed statins, 1 is already on them and the last guy (me) was asked if i was on them due to the levels being so low. NOT 1 of these educated men questioned the need to take them, I have pointed out some (real medical) studies showing the efficacy (or lack there of) and alternative strategies to control the (so called) high levels. 

 

Statins are the new antibiotics - given out like tictacs 

[473geo]

1 hour ago, eezergood said:

We just recently had our annual work medicals (conducted at BKK Phuket hospital) of the 5 males in the group, 3 where prescribed statins, 1 is already on them and the last guy (me) was asked if i was on them due to the levels being so low. NOT 1 of these educated men questioned the need to take them, I have pointed out some (real medical) studies showing the efficacy (or lack there of) and alternative strategies to control the (so called) high levels. 

 

Statins are the new antibiotics - given out like tictacs 

Age of the men is?

[eezergood]

15 minutes ago, 473geo said:

Age of the men is?

Approx 40-43 & 1 guy 59 I think 

[simon43]

9 minutes ago, eezergood said:

Approx 40-43 & 1 guy 59 I think 

And how old are you?

Edited June 26, 2019 by simon43

[myprivate]

13 hours ago, emptypockets said:

Lipitor for hypolipidemia…  I take 145 mg Lipidil and 20mg  crestor for cholesterol. No side effects whatsoever.

It really does sound like the OP is suffering from some form of depression even though he says he doesn't. Depression/anxiety can be quite a complex condition. I took Endep for 5 years after a cancer diagnosis but eventually stopped taking it. I got sick of waking up everyday with  a hangover type feeling from taking it. The agoraphobia wasn't much fun either,

 

Depression is a mental illness, no shame in that, but many people see it as a weakness. It's not. No different to a broken arm or a pain in the guts. Jus a different organ involved and can be treated.

 

OP - go back to your doctor and explain what you have posted here. 100/1 you have some form of depression. Get the treatment - get cured. Enjoy life after depression.

I appreciate your input but it is definitely not depression. People do not recover from depression only 2 weeks after stopping a statin. I generally feel great around 2-3 weeks after stopping the statin. The statin side effects I experience are well documented. But you're right, the side effects share some similarities with depression. 

[myprivate]

During my recent research I was really surprised to learn the difference  between Relative Risk and Absolute Risk, and that most of the (drug company sponsored) studies are allowed to advertise the 'Relative Risk'. It's very misleading to the ordinary person.

[jerry921]

Regarding Niaspan.

 

My GP in the US put me on that and I took it for almost 10 years. He preferred it over statins because, he said, it was the only drug that did 3 things in one: lower bad cholesterol, raise good cholesterol and affect triglicerides (I've forgotten whether the triglicerides number is good up or good down, but whichever way, the Niaspan pushes it in the right direction). I needed all 3 numbers to move, and it did the job.

 

It has a potential side effect. It can cause flushing, where you get red and your skin prickles. Some people find this intolerable. In my case, while I had the side effect it was tolerable, as it would only last a couple minutes, and never more than once each time I took the pills (once a day). They recommend taking it at bedtime, with the idea that if you are asleep when the flushing happens you won't notice. That didn't work for me, I took it in the morning because I didn't want it waking me up if it happened. I'd take it before my shower, and sometimes it would "go off" while I was in the shower, sometimes afterwards, and sometimes not until I ate lunch (as if the pills had been sitting in my stomach waiting for a push). 

 

I think my doctor said straight niacin tended to cause flushing even more than niaspan, so neither one may be tolerable for you.

 

But if statins aren't working for you, find a doctor that can put you on one of alternatives Sheryl listed. You don't have to choose between depression and heart disease!

[eezergood]

On 6/26/2019 at 11:27 AM, simon43 said:

And how old are you?

41 turning 42 

[eezergood]

4 hours ago, jerry921 said:

Regarding Niaspan.

 

My GP in the US put me on that and I took it for almost 10 years. He preferred it over statins because, he said, it was the only drug that did 3 things in one: lower bad cholesterol, raise good cholesterol and affect triglicerides (I've forgotten whether the triglicerides number is good up or good down, but whichever way, the Niaspan pushes it in the right direction). I needed all 3 numbers to move, and it did the job.

 

It has a potential side effect. It can cause flushing, where you get red and your skin prickles. Some people find this intolerable. In my case, while I had the side effect it was tolerable, as it would only last a couple minutes, and never more than once each time I took the pills (once a day). They recommend taking it at bedtime, with the idea that if you are asleep when the flushing happens you won't notice. That didn't work for me, I took it in the morning because I didn't want it waking me up if it happened. I'd take it before my shower, and sometimes it would "go off" while I was in the shower, sometimes afterwards, and sometimes not until I ate lunch (as if the pills had been sitting in my stomach waiting for a push). 

 

I think my doctor said straight niacin tended to cause flushing even more than niaspan, so neither one may be tolerable for you.

 

But if statins aren't working for you, find a doctor that can put you on one of alternatives Sheryl listed. You don't have to choose between depression and heart disease!

Another side effect of the flushing (i really do not mind & quite enjoy) is for some people they can become drowsy after the flush had gone.... so maybe perfect for others at night 

[billd766]

I am 75 and I have been taking 20mg of Bestatin since 2006 when I had 2 stents fitted in BKK.

 

For the last 3 or 4 months I find that my thighs and calves ache from the time I get up until I go to bed. It hurts when I sit down but it is OK while I am sitting then they ache when I stand up again.

 

I usually spend an hour in the morning cutting down the grass and scrub and it hurts when I do that.

 

On Monday of this week I stopped taking Bestatin and I will see how I feel in a month or two.

[Pilotman]

When I arrived in LOS, I was on 5 different prescription  medications, including statins, Allapurinol and Tramdol.  Dropped them all within 6 months and I have never felt better. I keep my weight down, I'm fit and alert with no obvious medical problems. Obviously,  I wouldn't recommend this kind of drastic action to others, but I have taken the view that, in my case, as with many other people,  the UK Doctor was just getting out the pad as a matter of course, to just take the easy road.  Time will tell of course, but 71 now and still going strong, without all the crap I was putting into my body. 

[KittenKong]

30 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I am 75 and I have been taking 20mg of Bestatin since 2006 when I had 2 stents fitted in BKK.

Has anyone checked your levels? I started on 20mg but after a couple of years my levels were better and so I was told to only take half that. No aches and pains to speak of (apart from the usual ones related to being 60+).

[billd766]

3 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Has anyone checked your levels? I started on 20mg but after a couple of years my levels were better and so I was told to only take half that. No aches and pains to speak of (apart from the usual ones related to being 60+).

I see my doctor once a month and the only thing he changed was my Co-Diovan BP tablets.

[myprivate]

When my brother had a heart attack at 54 his cholesterol levels were normal and he had never taken a statin in his life, but immediately after the heart attack he had 2 stents and the UK doctors followed ‘standard protocol’ and put him on 80mg per day of Lipitor. When he asked, “why are you prescribing statins if my cholesterol levels are normal” the response was, “you had a heart attack and so we consider that your cholesterol level must be too high FOR YOU”.

Eight years later and he has the same statin side effects as me, aches, pains and fatigue. He assumed that the fatigue was caused by the heart attack and so he never returned to full time work, but now he has regular statin breaks during which he feels much better. Of course we are wondering if the long term fatigue was really from the heart attack or the high dose statin.

By the way, his cholesterol levels are still normal, even when he stops the statin, but doctors are clearly afraid to take him off the statin because the guidelines are issued from above – it seems that if you’ve had a heart attack then you must take a statin regardless. The video I posted earlier in this thread has a section about this issue.

My mother had a heart attack 5 years ago at 82 (she’s now 87 and doing fine after 2 stents), again, her cholesterol levels were always normal but she was put on 80 mg of Lipitor for the first year and is now down to 40 mg which seems a very high dose for an 87 year old. Well guess what, she suffers from muscle pains in her legs which sometimes keep her housebound, but she is afraid of another heart attack and so is staying on the statins on the advice of her doctor, it’s hard to know if the muscle pain is due to age or the statin at 87.

I’m not anti-medicine, I’ll take anything if it makes me feel better and/or lengthen my life, and I was very happy to take the statin when it was first prescribed 15 years ago thinking it might break the cycle of middle aged heart attacks in my family, but I feel that the evidence is mounting that something’s not quite right with the lipid hypothesis.

Having said all that, if the statin didn’t make me feel so awful I would probably continue to take it “just in case”, let me be clear, I’m not encouraging people to stop if they are doing well on statins.

[faraday]

@myprivate

 

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/JAHA.118.009835

 

Look at the conclusions

[Lazy Sod]

29 minutes ago, faraday said:

@myprivate

 

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/JAHA.118.009835

 

Look at the conclusions

I tried taking COQ10 Supplements for several months but it didn't seem to help much with the aches and fatigue.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Lazy Sod

[gargamon]

Statin use depletes the body of Co-Q-10. Anyone taking statins should take this supplement. It is likely the cause of your side effects, especially since when you stop taking the Statin, the symptoms go away, and when you restart it takes a while for symptoms to kick in(as the co-q-10 depletes).

 

Google should have loads of info.

Edit: here's a link for you https://www.sps.nhs.uk/articles/should-patients-on-statins-take-coenzyme-q10-supplementation-to-reduce-the-risk-of-statin-induced-myopathy/

 

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by gargamon

[eezergood]

thanks to all that have posted real links, very informative