Why dont more people become PR

[ThomasThBKK]

The work permit stuff is rubbish, was obviously done to stop people from applying.

No retirees allowed, no offshore workers allowed, no investors allowed. no elite card holders allowed...

But a guy running a  7 11 would prolly be accepted ????‍♂️

[ThomasThBKK]

23 minutes ago, GarryP said:

What language would you have officials speak in their home country? Would officials in the UK be expected to be able to speak Thai for the convenience of Thai applicants, or Vietnamese, or Cambodian? Yes, it would be great if officials could speak English, but I don't see why people should expect that. 

 

I do agree that the fee is too high. That is the reason I never went for PR. I was holding out for when the law changed to allow foreign men married to Thai women to apply for citizenship. Luckily for me, the law did indeed change. Otherwise I would be kicking myself black and blue for not biting the bullet and applying for PR.     

Why Cambodian? English is world language, in every other country they speak english in the PR and passport departments.

 

Doesn't matter if Germany, Italy, United arab emirates or Turkmenistan. But there are also qualified civilians working and not the cousin of a friend of a military dude.

Edited July 9, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[EricTh]

 

Does anyone has the official document on conditions for PR translated into English? Please give a link.

[potless]

32 minutes ago, GarryP said:

What language would you have officials speak in their home country? Would officials in the UK be expected to be able to speak Thai for the convenience of Thai applicants, or Vietnamese, or Cambodian? Yes, it would be great if officials could speak English, but I don't see why people should expect that. 

Because English is recognised as an international language and taught in many schools worldwide. But I dont EXPECT it to be spoken but I am grateful when it is. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by potless

[scorecard]

49 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

Correct. But the number is not limited for how many are issued, but how many can apply. There's a code for country, and then a 2 digit number. That's PR application number. And it only goes from 01-99. So basically it's limited to 99 not 100.

 

How many actually get it approved is a different story.

 

I did hear that Indians were able to get around that by paying under the table... Wonder how they did that... filed under different nationalities? Mind you that was in the days when CW immigration was corrupt to the bone. That all changed soon after the coup and officers in that whole section got replaced. The people I have dealt with (the new team) were some of the nicest people on the planet. An amazing contrast to those that were there before.

I add, when I applied for PR (20+ years ago) there was never any mention by any officers re tea money and non was offered. 

 

 

[StevieAus]

1 hour ago, tomazbodner said:

When I applied it was 85,000 THB/month. That was on official requirements list that were shown at application. That might have changed. I do know a person who applied at the same time and had less than that, around 70,000 but was married, had kids with his Thai wife, lived here since stone age, and could speak Thai better than a Thai. He got it and I met him when receiving the book.

 

Now why not go with citizenship? Getting Thai passport requires you to get rid of your original citizenship. Which means that you are only Thai. In the past people could get away with it by signing "intention" to get rid of it, but never really did it, keeping both passports. Now you need to submit a certified letter from your original citizenship's foreign ministry stating that you are cancelling it when you are awarded Thai citizenship.

 

For many who enjoy visa-free travel and would require weeks or months to get a visa to go for a funeral of a relative back to old homeland, that's just out of the question while any relatives there are still alive.

 

As I have not actually applied, someone can correct me here, but I did inquire about it, and that's what I was told. And yes, that I would also need to sing an anthem in front of 50 or so patriotic policemen, which for someone tone-deaf like me who will never be caught singing as long as I am alive was a good enough reason to skip.

 

Last few words: You CAN lose PR easily. Like those with visa extension of stay need a re-entry permit to return with same conditions, PR holders need a "non-quota immigrant visa" and "endorsement". They are issued for validity of 1 year and you must return before they expire. Failing to get it and leaving the country means your entire PR is cancelled and you need to apply again. Difference between re-entry and non-quota visa is that re-entry can be applied for at the airport, while non quota visa can only be obtained from immigration office where PR was issued.

 

Second reason is if you commit any criminal act. And third if you are involved with any kind of illegal migration. I can't remember exact wording but the immigration officer answered when asking for clarification of what that means "if we come to your home and we find someone in Thailand illegally, like who entered country illegally or on overstay"... So maybe a word of warning to anyone with PR renting out their property...

 

But again, that's one officer saying this one time. I don't know what official wording is. But thought it's worth to mention that Permanent doesn't mean 100% permanent and can be revoked in 3 cases that I'm aware of.

I think paying tax for 3 years would bar most expats if receiving a pension or income from overseas.

Re the language test I struggle with Thai,  retention being the biggest problem I try learning with my wife who speaks good English but doesn’t work. I speak better French learned over 50 years ago at High School, but never used.

Re the national anthem I find it quite pleasant and although I might get some stick from other Aussies I think it sounds better than ours.

I seem to get caught at our local market and daughters school when it is played and can hum it all the way through.

If I can find a way around the other requirements would this get me over the line ????

[Don Mega]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Not recent, long-term like what U.Joe mentioned.

Yeah I acknowledged his post earlier.

[Hanuman2547]

I qualified for it and citizenship in all areas but was never interested in it despite spending 12 years in Bangkok.  It's also not cheap either but I guess that would eventually even out if you stay long enough.  Something I didn't see myself doing.

[jak2002003]

Answer to OP.

 

In my opinion...….

 

because the cost, time and effort required for PR is not worth the advantages of getting it.  

 

 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

A off topic post meant to deflect the topic has been removed.

[KiChakayan]

1 hour ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Why Cambodian? English is world language, in every other country they speak english in the PR and passport departments.

Indeed, In Australia  got PR first and citizenship a few years later. They were extremely friendly and welcoming, and spoke good English too.

[scorecard]

38 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Answer to OP.

 

In my opinion...….

 

because the cost, time and effort required for PR is not worth the advantages of getting it.  

 

 

 

 

Yes, but that's up to each person, I have PR (over 20 years) I live with my son born here, his wonderful Thai wife and my three granddaughters, they are my very beloved family. Having PR means there is 99.9% peace of mind that visa issues will never separate the family. To me this is very important.

 

 

[Arkady]

18 hours ago, Don Mega said:

Is that a recent thing or is my memory failing me ?

The requirement for knowledge of Thai was introduced in the early 2000s during the first Thaksin government which made things a lot harder in many other ways too.  Prior to that applicants were permitted to use interpreters in interviews which used to be only with individual Immigration officers.  The original Thai language test was a very simple multiple choice where the answers were obvious even to those who had hardly any Thai.  A few years later they upgraded this to a full blown panel interview with senior officers from Immigration and, I think, other agencies on the panel.  Sometimes some quite tricky questions can be asked, depending on the whims of the officers, that might require a good knowledge of intermediate Thai. I know a couple of people who fluffed the interview because they either couldn't understand the questions or understood but didn't know how to answer in Thai.  There has never been any requirement to read or write Thai.

 

 

[Denim]

PR is a bit passe. If you like it here that much citizenship is a better option.

 

 

[Bangel72]

There were a couple of bureaucracy laden days I felt it all was not worth it. Trying to get a signature and and stamp in a police station in the boonies for example or trying to get the local office to understand its the blue house book I go in but getting it for me similar to others was/is also all about piece of mind.

I was just about to be made redundant in 2009 and it was perfect cover for that gap in jobs, while others were given 5 days to leave I had no such concerns.

The cost is high in my view compared to other visa options but all you need to do is read half the other threads on TV to know how risky a relationship visa is, or a partner dies or you want to switch jobs or they bump up the in bank money requirement, or worse you get married just to stay here. so far its the less risky option with highest piece of mind though of course that could change very quickly but for now that's the case for me that makes it worth it.  

[ThaiBunny]

6 hours ago, expatfromwyoming said:

yes but it is never filled

Evidently PR is a popular option then ????????

[Arkady]

The answer to the OP's question is complex.  I have also been mystified as to why many more qualified people I knew didn't apply.  Of course, today the Thai language requirement is a hurdle for some and the fees are no longer cheap.  When I applied in the late 90s there was no language requirement and the total fees were only B52,000 for everyone (2,000 application fee and 50,000 on success). Still many people were derisive about the idea of applying - "why would I want to do that", was a common response, and I gave up trying to encourage them to apply.  Over the years many of those naysayers, who are still here, have complained bitterly about how increasingly badly they are treated by Immigration as temporary residents and some have been beset by crises such as sudden loss of job and immigration status simultaneously. Some applied many years later, after enduring all these hassles for years, and found it was much harder than, if they had applied as soon as they were qualified. I think for most long term residents who are qualified and can afford it could but don't apply,  the real reason is that they can't be bothered.

 

Fortunately for males married to Thais the Thai government, in its munificence, provided a better alternative in 2008, which may work for some. That is the ability to apply for citizenship without getting PR first with virtually the same requirements, i.e. three years on a work permit, but the salary requirement is only B40,000 a month.  Strangely enough this is a much easier and cheaper option. There is a language requirement but it is waived for those married to Thais who are allowed to have their Thai spouse help them in the panel interview.

[Arkady]

26 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Yes, but that's up to each person, I have PR (over 20 years) I live with my son born here, his wonderful Thai wife and my three granddaughters, they are my very beloved family. Having PR means there is 99.9% peace of mind that visa issues will never separate the family. To me this is very important.

 

 

Definitely PR provides such peace of mind but what got me increasingly frustrated was: 1) hardly any Thais outside Immigration and the police understood what PR was and didn't recognize the alien book; 2) having to provide photocopies of five books - passport, alien book, residence book, tabien baan and work permit; 3) still having to get work permits. 

 

Now I only need to provide a copy of my ID card and tabien baan and am free to work and own my own business and land and have given up that annual pilgrimage to Immigration at CW where can't do the simple endorsements on the spot. You have to either wait for three hours or come back the next day (or send a messenger). 

[CGW]

1 hour ago, StevieAus said:

I think paying tax for 3 years would bar most expats if receiving a pension or income from overseas.

True, I came here to escape paying taxes, why would I then volunteer by way of PR to start to pay taxes again?

[Matzzon]

19 hours ago, expatfromwyoming said:

Mystifies me as too why so few people do not go the PR red book route instead of endlessly being at the whims of an IO and jumping through hurdles ever 90 days. Most falangs I know qualify for PR. Strange????

Most foreigners you know? Either you do not know many or you just belong to that certain clic du cremé.

Why so few not go that route, and why not most foreigner qualify (that´s a fact that you seem to have missed) is:

1. The extra expense of chunking out 200K for the deal.

2. Need to have worked a minimum of 3 or 5 years (actually not remember) and payed taxes during that time.

3 All the other criterias

 

So, at the end. Not so strange as you might think it is.

After that you have all the people that compare 90 day reports with the loss of 200K baht. Actually there are more people in Thailand that do not see a 90 day report as something bad, than there are complainers. Guess that was another thing you never thought about.

[Arkady]

When I was applying for citizenship I got even more derisory comments than when I applied for PR. People said things like, "Why would I want a third world passport and have to submit myself to the indignities of applying when I have a super duper US of A, British, Australian etc passport?"

 

Again some of the real long-term hold outs, who don't have PR but have Thai wives, are now applying after finding the hassles of annual renewals, TM30s and 90 day reporting and worries that one day they will be separated from their families getting too much.

[StevieAus]

1 minute ago, CGW said:

True, I came here to escape paying taxes, why would I then volunteer by way of PR to start to pay taxes again?

Totally agree one of the reasons that made me decide to retire and live here.

In Aus I paid personal tax, company tax and collected for free the GST for the Government so that every man woman and and his dog could get this benefit or payment without working.

Then when you retire and from what I understand, unlike in virtually every other western country and the US they try to deny you the aged pension by keep lowering the bar.

[justin case]

would be fair if THAI people could not get PR in our home countries, maybe then, but probably not, the government would enter in the 21st century about allowing farangs to live with their children/family without all the crap tm30, 90 day, yearly begging show, money in the bank, no land for you, jobs for thais only crap

[Don Mega]

44 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 There has never been any requirement to read or write Thai.

 

 

Thanks, Yeah this has already been pointed out by Ubonjoe.

[Caldera]

35 minutes ago, Arkady said:

When I was applying for citizenship I got even more derisory comments than when I applied for PR. People said things like, "Why would I want a third world passport and have to submit myself to the indignities of applying when I have a super duper US of A, British, Australian etc passport?"

That is a legitimate concern though, at least if it's true that nowadays they force you to actually renounce your prior citizenship, instead of merely asking you to declare that you intend to do that. Do you happen to know what the current situation is?

 

I'm not in a position to apply for either PR or citizenship, but if I were, I would never give up my current citizenship to become a Thai citizen. If I could have dual citizenship, I would consider it. I'd guess that's a sentiment shared by many if not most potential applicants (unless you come from a country that ranks even lower than Thailand).

Edited July 9, 2019 by Caldera
Typo

[StevieAus]

1 hour ago, tomazbodner said:

It is about income (if over 100k it gets more points), married to a Thai (gets points, the more years the more points), being in 35-50 years of age gives most points I hear with them declining over 50, speaking formal Thai to conversation level (in my case I was asked to sit down, then how long I stayed in Thailand, what I do, where I come from... followed by "never heard of it" after which it all went off script and ended up in a really good conversation with the most decorated guy in the middle), level of education also gives points, with the higher level achieved, more points it gets, and finally the attitude. I am told that letter of recommendation from a respected person helps (usually that would need to be some high ranking official, minister, army or police chief), as well as what your work is - is it beneficial to Thailand and Thai society. Charity stuff apparently also helps. Ah yes, and whether you have Thai kids.

 

I saw a form where points were being given and a total score had to reach 60. I don't know how they award them though but a young officer showed it to me briefly when I asked what that was... So I can't tell whether that would get you over the line, but married, with kids, reasonable salary, paying taxes, good personality, education, doing something good for the Thai, with some Thai, enough to communicate with a taxi driver for instance... I think you should at least try. Most of the time it makes sense to go way before December and talk to immigration (maybe get your wife along) to go through requirements and they might give you some advice or tell you up-front what's lacking if there's something so major you could not get approved. In such cases usually application is rejected straight away.

 

Last but not least - all documents (unless you are from English-speaking country) need to be translated and certified by foreign ministry of your home country (in my case that meant: notarised copy of original, court translated, certified by court translator was certified, court then certified by Ministry of Justice, Foreign Ministry then certifying Ministry of Justice, and finally (normally this would be Embassy of your country in Thailand but my country has none) Thai consulate certifying Foreign Ministry.... papers ended up full of stamps after stamps... Finally - that had to be officially translated to Thai and taken to Thai Foreign Ministry to get translations officially certified. Only after that paperwork was accepted. This goes for all the foreign documents: no criminal record paper, education papers, birth certificate... maybe there were more but don't remember. So really - this takes a lot of time. So for anyone thinking of applying this December they should start working on it now.

Thanks for your detailed response as it is very informative.

My response was somewhat tongue in cheek although what I stated is correct.

I don’t have any issue with the reporting,  renewing my retirement extension etc, every country places obligations on its residents and I see what is required here as exactly that.

I also do not see any problem for me meeting the the financial requirements in the future and don’t subscribe to some of the views expressed on this site that the Thai government wants to rid the country of all foreigners.

I would however see a difficulty in meeting the requirement of paying the tax for three years, I have never worked here and to be frank at 69 have no intention of working again.

We do have a couple of small businesses but to meet the requirements and to involve me would I think not be worth the effort.

Thanks however for your information

[Michael Hare]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

The answer to the OP's question is complex.  I have also been mystified as to why many more qualified people I knew didn't apply.  Of course, today the Thai language requirement is a hurdle for some and the fees are no longer cheap.  When I applied in the late 90s there was no language requirement and the total fees were only B52,000 for everyone (2,000 application fee and 50,000 on success). Still many people were derisive about the idea of applying - "why would I want to do that", was a common response, and I gave up trying to encourage them to apply.  Over the years many of those naysayers, who are still here, have complained bitterly about how increasingly badly they are treated by Immigration as temporary residents and some have been beset by crises such as sudden loss of job and immigration status simultaneously. Some applied many years later, after enduring all these hassles for years, and found it was much harder than, if they had applied as soon as they were qualified. I think for most long term residents who are qualified and can afford it could but don't apply,  the real reason is that they can't be bothered.

 

Fortunately for males married to Thais the Thai government, in its munificence, provided a better alternative in 2008, which may work for some. That is the ability to apply for citizenship without getting PR first with virtually the same requirements, i.e. three years on a work permit, but the salary requirement is only B40,000 a month.  Strangely enough this is a much easier and cheaper option. There is a language requirement but it is waived for those married to Thais who are allowed to have their Thai spouse help them in the panel interview.

I got PR in 2004 because I thought it was the normal thing to do if one intended, as I was, going to live several years in Thailand. My late wife lived with me in New Zealand for 14 years and had PR. She said that I must have PR in Thailand. So I got it. Living here in Ubon Ratchathani it meant making four trips to Bangkok for interviews etc. I did everything by myself. now I have PR it is absolutely great. One problem though; many Thai people (officials included) don't understand what it is.

 

Now I would apply for citizenship if I could do everything here in Ubon which I can't I am informed. I just can not be bothered making trips to Bangkok and going from one Thai department/ministry to another with documents and papers. PR, for me, is good enough. I renewed my work permit last week and got it for two years. 

[jayboy]

19 hours ago, MikeN said:

Well if they do lose their job, and cannot find another one here then having  PR is not going to make any difference, is it ? No dole/social security here so they would have to go back 'home" or somewhere they could find a job.

Not really.Most people who have PR are in my experience reasonably well financially established, with at very least reserves to keep them going a year or two if they lost their jobs.This would give them more than enough time to find another job.For the older PR on verge of early retirement, it's a huge asset not to have to even think of immigration issues.

[Matzzon]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

When I was applying for citizenship I got even more derisory comments than when I applied for PR. People said things like, "Why would I want a third world passport and have to submit myself to the indignities of applying when I have a super duper US of A, British, Australian etc passport?"

 

Again some of the real long-term hold outs, who don't have PR but have Thai wives, are now applying after finding the hassles of annual renewals, TM30s and 90 day reporting and worries that one day they will be separated from their families getting too much.

I understand you perfectly. There is a difference between citizenship and PR, though. If you are a citizen, then all the financial rules is wiped out. Applying for a PR is only a permanent residence. It actually do not guarantee you a visa if you cannot uphold the financial requirements that is the ground for your permanent stay. The only thing it takes away is the need for a 90 day report as far as i understand. For the measly fee of only 200K. if I am wrong, I would be happy to be corrected.

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Applying for a PR is only a permanent residence. It actually do not guarantee you a visa if you cannot uphold the financial requirements that is the ground for your permanent stay.

After your application is approved and you have PR there is no more need to show financial proof or salary for anything.

If working the only thing you to do is maintain a work permit and pay the taxes that are due based on your salary.