Is this shower system wired correctly?

[davidst01]

I raised the thread:

 

It took a while to find an 'electrician' who had experience. One guy we phoned said he was an electrical worker and a window maker. I thought to myself if my doctor told me that he was half a dentist and half a proctologist then I would run a mile. 

 

Anyways, we found a guy who was 100% an electrician. He told us in relation to the above problem that the installer from before had incorrectly wired the brown and blue i.e. they were in the wrong slots. The photo I took represents the correct way. Can anyone  confirm this. 

 

thanks

[davidst01]

[Moonlover]

Impossible to tell from the photograph. Do you have the installation instructions?

 

That should tell which way round 'live' and 'neutral' should be connected.

[davidst01]

4 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Impossible to tell from the photograph. Do you have the installation instructions?

 

That should tell which way round 'live' and 'neutral' should be connected.

I will try to find them and put a copy on here

[Fruit Trader]

The terminals are marked on the rear casing L N. The cables are in the correct terminals but that does not mean the live is brown without making a test. 

[Crossy]

Yes ^^^.

 

It LOOKS correct, but the only way to be sure is by some simple tests, your sparks ought to be able to do this if you don't feel confident.

 

[ross163103]

I'm not an electrician but from my experience with Thai house electrics the problem is Thai electricians don't distinguish between L and N, they tend to interchange them. Better to have this checked out, good luck finding a qualified electrician over here; I've had 4 out to my place with a wide array of answers/solutions to various problems. By the way I had the same issue with one of my shower taps, finally disconnected the heater for fear of getting electrocuted.

[unamazedloso]

Yep, L and N are not always correct. Even in my house i wired myself i ran out of colors so used all brown and all green in spots. Need to test. Every house ive lived in hete that wasnt built by me would have atleast one plug with the neutral and live backwards causing all kinds of havoc..

[nickmondo]

check to see where the earth goes from the terminal.

Is it actually going to earth?

i.e. to a long metal rod that will be driven into the ground outside.

If there is a rod, is the earth wire from your consumer unit connected to the rod?

if the neutral and line wires are crossed that does not mean you will get a shock from your tap.

but it would make your breaker trip 

do you have a RCD fitted?

Safety cut out switch?

a full picture of the breaker for your shower would be helpful

[dlclark97]

In my house built and wired by a local contractor I used an outlet checker to check every outlet in the house.  EVERY one had the LINE and NEUTRAL leads reversed.  When this was brought to their attention they came back and corrected every outlet's wiring.

[IvorBiggun2]

21 hours ago, davidst01 said:

 

Anyways, we found a guy who was 100% an electrician. He told us in relation to the above problem that the installer from before had incorrectly wired the brown and blue i.e. they were in the wrong slots.

I/we had this problem whereby we were getting shocks off the shower. Could not find an electrician(?) who knew how to correct the fault. Must have tried at least 6. Eventually we went to the local boards depot and asked if they could come and check out the fault. 3 men came and messed about with wires in the consumer unit and came up with this solution. In the consumer unit all the negative wires were connected to the earth/ground. In Thailand the negative supply carries 3 volts or so. They disconnected the negative wire from the earth and the problem stopped never to be seen again.

I've told this story before and been told I'm not correct in what they did, but all I know is what they told me and what I saw.   

 

I have an RCBO fitted.

[millymoopoo]

For the water heater itself (the copper tank - 2 white wires) the wiring is irrelevant, the blue and brown can be reversed without any issue.

The most important wire is the green (earth) this must be continuous, that is this wire must be connected into the house earth system, the earth spike and all metal water pipes.

Thailand is notorious for ignoring earthing with many houses not even having any earth at all.

For obvious safety reasons all devices that use both water and electricity must be connected to an effective earth.

Many houses in Thailand that do have earth wiring are not effectively earthed.
Effective earthing is achieved by the use of 1 or more earth spikes, long coper covered steel rods driven deep into wet earth, usually next to wells, soaks and septic tanks.

The spike/s must be wet to be effective.

The reason you are getting a shock from the metal water pressure tap is there is electrical potential between you (standing naked on a wet floor) and the tap.

If the tap is not effectively earthed you will get a shock, how much shock depends on how effective the earth is, varies from 0% effective - full 220v shock, to 100% effective - no shock.

Google 'how many people die from electric shock in thailand'  there are no statistics for Thais but over and over again there are stories of Farang dies from shock received from shower heater.

Suggestion: Find an electrician with a meggermeter to test every appliance, every tap and the entire house wiring for earth continuity and repair where necessary.

You only get 1 chance at life, there's no coming back from death caused by electric shock.

 

[rwill]

even if the brown and blue are in the correct slots in the heater it does not necessarily mean they are connected properly at the other end or somewhere between.  Best to check which wire is actually the hot wire.  And also that the earth/ground wire is actually grounded.

[tjo o tjim]

Just check voltage between “L” and G, along with “N” and G.  The issue is where the switch is on the circuit; if it is on the N then you always have potential on the heating element (verified by turning the switch off and checking voltages relative to inputs and/or ground).

[ChipButty]

A few years ago someone asked me did I know an electrician to do some wiring and new lights in a bar, so I contacted the sparky for them told him where to go, He did go and look then phoned me and said he didnt want to do the job in its present state all the cable they had used before is speaker cables must have been glowing, he will only do the job if he can rip everything out and start again

[KittenKong]

22 hours ago, davidst01 said:

One guy we phoned said he was an electrical worker and a window maker.

Translation error.

 

He meant that he was an electrician and a widow-maker.

[rosst]

22 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Impossible to tell from the photograph. Do you have the installation instructions?

 

That should tell which way round 'live' and 'neutral' should be connected.

As it is A/C that is not as important as the ground wire and its connection to the earth, obviously you have steel or copper pipes hence the shock, you need to ensure that the earth green wire is grounded and bonded to the water pipe if possible. 

[DefaultName]

28 minutes ago, ChipButty said:

A few years ago someone asked me did I know an electrician to do some wiring and new lights in a bar, so I contacted the sparky for them told him where to go, He did go and look then phoned me and said he didnt want to do the job in its present state all the cable they had used before is speaker cables must have been glowing, he will only do the job if he can rip everything out and start again

Similar; had a new shower heater installed, they opened the old one and refused to go further as there was no earth wire.  300฿ to run a new one from the fuse box. I paid with a smile! 

 

Buddha knows how long the old one had been there for, no one died (that I know of).

[Tbone999]

Doesn't make a difference which way round they are, in Thailand, there is an equal amount of voltage on each wire, they adopted the US way of doing things although using a different voltage, in the UK, there is 240V on the live wire (hence the fuse) and the other is a neutral reference.

[Tbone999]

If you get a shock, then that means the unit or some other unit is not earthed properly. I had small tingles on the tap that turns on the water to the shower. Turned out the pump used to draw water from my well wasn't earthed. You need to make sure the earth is connected to a real earth and not just a nail hammered a couple of cm into the ground somewhere, then go from there.

[The Theory]

I don’t see any difference since the internal wires are not color coded (I see both are white) It means it does not matter which one is hot or cold.

your electrician thinks if he change the wires the other way it shall fix the problem (it might fix the problem) otherwise not specified by manufacturer (no color code guide).

“always the last guy error, as usual” ????

 

[lagavulin1]

3 hours ago, ross163103 said:

I'm not an electrician but from my experience with Thai house electrics the problem is Thai electricians don't distinguish between L and N, they tend to interchange them. Better to have this checked out, good luck finding a qualified electrician over here; I've had 4 out to my place with a wide array of answers/solutions to various problems. By the way I had the same issue with one of my shower taps, finally disconnected the heater for fear of getting electrocuted.

My whole house was wired wrong. The fluorescent tubes flashed about a minute after being switched off. 

[Fruit Trader]

28 minutes ago, Tbone999 said:

Doesn't make a difference which way round they are, in Thailand, there is an equal amount of voltage on each wire, they adopted the US way of doing things although using a different voltage, in the UK, there is 240V on the live wire (hence the fuse) and the other is a neutral reference.

The distribution method in Thailand is closer to that of Europe than the US

This site should help clear up any confusion. 

https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/north-american-versus-european-distribution-systems

[ChipButty]

They start of on the blue pipes then move onto the yellow pipes, now he's a sparky

[StevieAus]

22 hours ago, Crossy said:

Yes ^^^.

 

It LOOKS correct, but the only way to be sure is by some simple tests, your sparks ought to be able to do this if you don't feel confident.

 

Whilst we are on the subject of electricity and earthing could I Indulge you to answer a question in relation to a Neutral Link

One of the posters on this topic mentioned neutrals being disconnected from the earth.

I seem to recall from my days in Aus being told that the neutral is connected to the earth for additional safety.

Unless I am mistaken of course.

 

[bankruatsteve]

1 hour ago, Tbone999 said:

Doesn't make a difference which way round they are, in Thailand, there is an equal amount of voltage on each wire, they adopted the US way of doing things although using a different voltage.

Have to call a Pinoccio on that.  Single phase service in Thailand is 220V on live with neutral at relative zero potential.  

[Crossy]

20 minutes ago, StevieAus said:

I seem to recall from my days in Aus being told that the neutral is connected to the earth for additional safety.

 

Aus is TNC-S with MEN (Multiple Earthed Neutral) with a local ground rod and N-E linked in the distribution board.

 

Thailand is moving towards the same arrangement with a slightly different N-E linking arrangement which is electrically the same.

 

That said, there is still a significant chunk of the country that does not have the required neutral grounding in place (a grounding rod at every 3rd pole) if this grounding is not in place it would be unwise to add a N-E link in your board leaving your installation as TT. If this is the case then an RCD/RCBO is essential.

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, Tbone999 said:

Doesn't make a difference which way round they are, in Thailand, there is an equal amount of voltage on each wire, they adopted the US way of doing things although using a different voltage, in the UK, there is 240V on the live wire (hence the fuse) and the other is a neutral reference.

 

NO!!!

 

Thailand is 3-phase, 4-wire with the star point grounded at the transformer. The star point is also the neutral (which is also grounded at multiple points along it's length in newer instalations). 

 

Phase-neutral voltage is 220V, phase-phase is 380V.

 

This is exactly the same as the UK apart from Thailand being 220V (actually, Bangkok is 230V just to confuse).

[Captain 776]

Newer models are internally grounded.

If u are in an older building it may not have a grounding system at all.

[Crossy]

30 minutes ago, Captain 776 said:

Newer models are internally grounded.

 

Can you please explain what you mean by "internally grounded".