Expat group launches online petition calling for TM.30 to be scrapped

[spidermike007]

23 minutes ago, Burma Bill said:

Sorry, never had to and never will (hopefully). Personally, in almost 20 years I have never seen a TM30. Hypothetical situations:- I return home in the early hours of a Saturday and, like today, Monday is a public holiday. So, I report to Immigration on Tuesday - will I get fined for a 3 day delay in reporting my return? In another situation, I could return home on Saturday, then be on my travels again today (public holiday) without even being able to report my arrival back home before departing again. It is all totally ridiculous and I shall continue as I always have done!

Good on you. Me neither. Some laws are not worth obeying. Some are so inane, some are laced with such racism, and xenophobia, and fear, they are not worthy of our attention. If the landlords want to comply with the laws imposed on them, that is up to them. I will continue to do my annual visa renewals, and my 90 day reporting. That is all they are going to get out of me.  

Edited July 29, 2019 by spidermike007

[CMNightRider]

2 hours ago, stillhereandlovinit said:

Not now they have done this it wont. I cant see what everyone's problem is with TM30, its easily done on the app. 2 minute job every time you enter the country, once you get your username and password from immigration after registering first time.

Thank you for your input Mr. or Miss. Imgration Officer. ????

[jackdd]

3 minutes ago, newatthis said:

How does a retired person come under S 34?

Most likely Tourism, if not tourism then it's 15, other activities.

 

[Bangkok Barry]

3 minutes ago, newatthis said:

How does a retired person come under S 34?

 

Section 34

Aliens entering into the kingdom for a temporary stay may enter for the below listed activities:

1. Diplomatic or Consular Missions
2. Performance of official duties
3. Touring
4. Sporting
5. Business
6. Investing under the concurrence of the Ministries and Departments concerned.
7. Investing or other activities relating to investing subject to the provisions of the law on investment promotion.
8. Transit journey.
9. Being the person in charge of the crew of a conveyance coming to port, station, or area in the Kingdom.
10. Study or observation.
11. Mass media.
12. Missionary work under the concurrence of the Ministries and departments concerned.
13. Scientific research or training or teach in a Research Institute in the Kingdom.
14. The practice of skilled handicraft or as a specialist
15. Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

 

 

Everyone who hasn't taken up citizenship is in Thailand on a temporary stay, the length dictated by the visa they have. I notice that those supporting a Thai family are not included above, maybe on the grounds that they are not temporary visitors. But they are.

[Dogmatix]

Good luck with the petition guys and the possible follow up and retribution from Immigration on the signatories.  TM30 is an archaic piece of legislation that was never properly enforced until now, probably because it was deemed impractical. A horrible idea.

 

Along with people's visa status suddenly expiring when they get sacked from their jobs TM30 is another one for the naysayers who mocked the idea of applying for PR or citizenship with comments like, "Why would I submit myself to such indignities or shell out that much cash for PR", or "Why would I need a third world passport when I have a first world one?"  I put in the efforts for both and have been happy to avoid all hassles with Immigration for 22 years, while noting the hassles have got worse and that applying for PR has got a lot more difficult and citizenship a bit more difficult.

 

The only thing that is predictable with Immigration is that it gets steadily worse in its application of the 1979 Immigration Act, on which TM30 is contingent.  Thailand needs a complete new Immigration Act but Immigration loves the old Act because it is vague and allows them to fill in the details through police orders or ministerial regulations that require no parliamentary scrutiny. Repealing the Act will not be a priority of this government which has a waver thin majority and will struggle to get any legislation that the Senate cannot vote on through Parliament.  While it is worth drawing attention to TM30 and I actually find the petition commendable, getting something done about it will be a long haul. 

 

[Phuketshrew]

27 minutes ago, Burma Bill said:

Sorry, never had to and never will (hopefully). Personally, in almost 20 years I have never seen a TM30. Hypothetical situations:- I return home in the early hours of a Saturday and, like today, Monday is a public holiday. So, I report to Immigration on Tuesday - will I get fined for a 3 day delay in reporting my return? In another situation, I could return home on Saturday, then be on my travels again today (public holiday) without even being able to report my arrival back home before departing again. It is all totally ridiculous and I shall continue as I always have done!

I thought that as well until I needed to get a COR from immigration for my driving license renewal. No TM30 no letter, so I had to do it. Paperwork was inconvenient but doable and I was not fined.

[wendyfromoz]

aren't people concerned that they may be rounded up and deported if they sign this petition.  My concern is the military may see it as a threat to National Security and throw me out.

[zydeco]

2 hours ago, tpkhk said:

If we have a way to get one or more ambassadors on board - it could help get more attention.  Also, hopefully the various / larger Chambers of Commerce?

 

Even if they dont make a total change in the law, ease of compliance would help a lot.

Embassies will not touch this with a ten foot pole. It's an internal matter. What embassies could do, however, is issue tourist advisories and warnings about Thai Immigration's uneven enforcement policies and excessive collection of fines.

[zydeco]

2 hours ago, stillhereandlovinit said:

TM30, its easily done on the app. 2 minute job every time you enter the country, once you get your username and password from immigration after registering first time.

Stop with that crap. I've been waiting for over 7 weeks for my username and password. Frankly, the only reform needed is to make the TM30 online system like the 90 day one. That is, no requirement for registration approval, username, or password. Just fill out the damn form and get a receipt online.

[RBOP]

Can you imagine if Canada all of sudden started enforces old laws that are still in the books, like "Rails to tie horses must be provided by businesses in Alberta". ????

[Wilsonandson]

This is utter madness. Spend 24 hours in another province and you have to go to immigration and report yourself. Is this Nazi Germany? Unbelievable!

[jackdd]

24 minutes ago, newatthis said:

How does a retired person come under S 34?

I just checked the wording of the Thai law, this is slightly different from the wording of the english translation on the website which i linked to.

It says a foreigner who will enter Thailand temporarily must enter for one of the given reasons.

So i can't tell you 100% for which reason exactly a retiree is allowed to enter, but for sure it's under section 34

Edited July 29, 2019 by jackdd

[RBOP]

7 minutes ago, wendyfromoz said:

aren't people concerned that they may be rounded up and deported if they sign this petition.  My concern is the military may see it as a threat to National Security and throw me out.

No not afraid. Its never happened and not sure they would be able to trace us anyway. It would be really bad and destroy the image of Thailand if they tried such a thing.  

[cerox]

If you want to stay here, do not sign it. Risk is too big - they could blacklist, deport you, whatever, what are you gonna do? This is not a democratic state where you, esp. as a foreigner, go and demand stuff.

[kandi]

13 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

Nothing is perfect. People will disagree, would have used other words, including other reforms.

 

The website crashed twice today because there was too much traffic. The petition text in English has been revised to be more readable.

 

I am part of this group and we need 10,000 signatures to change things, Below that, they will not listen to us. I have lived in Thailand for 15 years, I work for a law firm. There is nothing illegal to tell how you feel about a law. Some people in our group have Thai families, work hard, pay taxes. We tried to add testimonials with pictures but people are quite scared.

 

I would like to appeal the Thaivisa community to SIGN THIS PETITION as if nothing is done, nothing will change. Some applications online do not work, it is currently a mess and not necessary. We are screen by immigration, give our address every 90 days, checked at airports and country entrances, etc. How many foreigners live in Thailand? How many spend a weekend in another province? Do you imagine the lost of time to manage this? 

 

This is not to protect terrorism. My personal opinion, it is useless and bureaucracy. In the old law of 1979 and need a change.

 

If you do not like it, do not sign, and I won't answer comments here. I take care of 4 children and manage a law firm. I have permanent residency and don't even have to do TM30, TM28 or TM47. I did that to help this community after receiving TONS of complaints. Thanks.

 

Sebastian.

Your website says all data sent is being encrypted, but the site doesn't even use HTTPS. A little bit uncredible.

[luckyluke]

7 minutes ago, Phuketshrew said:

38 minutes ago, Burma Bill said:

I shall continue as I always have done!

I thought that as well until I needed to get a COR from immigration for my driving license renewal. No TM30 no letter,

Having principles is great, mostly applied till...

However I suppose there must be some who will prefer to leave Thailand than to hand over a TM30 when an Immigration officer is demand it as a condition to obtain a 1 year extension.

[CMNightRider]

It warms my heart to finally see so many expats come together, to oppose Thai Immigrations latest nonsensical TM forms aimed at further restricting and monitoring expat movement.  It's interesting to see the apologist and Thais posing as expats come out of the woodwork against this online petition.  May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your nostrils.  

 

I hope this petition brings together the Thai wives of expats to band together to oppose immigrations draconian rules and regulations imposed on law-abiding foreigners who call Thailand their home. ????

[Bangkok Barry]

2 minutes ago, Wilsonandson said:

This is utter madness. Spend 24 hours in another province and you have to go to immigration and report yourself. Is this Nazi Germany? Unbelievable!

 

Well, there have been plenty of reports that foreigners - only foreigners- are being stopped in some areas of Bangkok. A main tourist drag is the prime location, just to give visitors a new experience, and residents and visitors who are just going about their business are asked for their papers (passport) and searched. Even told to get out of taxis as they are on their way back home or to their hotel. So draw your own conclusions.

[Time Traveller]

Sign your name and expect an extra grilling from immigration next time you're there wanting something. No thank you.

 

Idiots claim they have been living in Thailand long time, but still have no knowledge how thailand works. 

Since when did Thai immigration ever do anything sensible and improve efficiency? (how many people would be out of jobs if they stopped address reporting?)

And when did Thailand (let alone the chest beating Police dept) ever take suggestions for internal policy from farangs? They don't like losing face.

 

 

[Wilsonandson]

This video says it all..

 

[schlemmi]

12 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I just checked the wording of the Thai law, this is slightly different from the wording of the english translation on the website which i linked to.

It says a foreigner who will enter Thailand temporarily must enter for one of the given reasons.

So i can't tell you 100% for which reason exactly a retiree is allowed to enter, but for sure it's under section 34

For retired persons it is under the last toppic. Othe activities as regulated by  the Ministerial law. But you have to do a look to the "Police rule" (ระเบียบกรมตำรวจ) (Rabiab grom tamruad) too. It does not list the "Others" item. At least the issue from 2522 does not.

 

[TKDfella]

1 hour ago, justin case said:

finally  people with balls.... when I suggested to pay a form of membership to form a group with Thai lawyer, it is laughed away, but you can see the attitude from most TV posters, shooting it down and prefer to moan on the forum instead of real action, even IMMIGRATION does not give a crap 

You are wrong! Expats don't have the right to vote, to petition, to join protest marches etc. Expats who have tried to voice an opinion (like the video/song a few days ago) have to end up apologising. In the new constitution the rights to law, complaints etc. are all and always referred to The Thai people. It does not say anything about persons residing in the Kingdom only to The Thai people.

Don't confuse those who have courage to do something with those who understand that expats are granted one year stay by abiding by the law. If expats had the right don't you think representations would have been made long ago?

About 15-18 years Nong Khai IO set up an panel that consisted of of IO's and a team of expats to discuss problems. I was one of the first  to hurry to put my name on that list. And we didn't need a Thai lawyer. Among other things, we talked about the length of extensions (why only one year) and why did Thailand not grant special long term visas to those expats in the kingdom for more than 5 years. There was a second meeting in which we were told that we didn't have the right to challenge the law. That was it! There were no further meetings after that. Other expats here have probably done something similar over the years so don't go around spouting 'finally people with balls....' and suggesting others haven't.  

[brewsterbudgen]

Thank you, but I have since been informed that on my travels, the hotel does the TM30 when I check in. I do not have to do anything.

Correct. But some offices require you (or your landlord) to do a TM30 when you return home. Local offices apply the law differently.

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[brewsterbudgen]

Good on you. Me neither. Some laws are not worth obeying. Some are so inane, some are laced with such racism, and xenophobia, and fear, they are not worthy of our attention. If the landlords want to comply with the laws imposed on them, that is up to them. I will continue to do my annual visa renewals, and my 90 day reporting. That is all they are going to get out of me.  

I would do the same, but the Immigration office in Bangkok will not process Extensions without a TM30 being on file.

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[RBOP]

20 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

Well, there have been plenty of reports that foreigners - only foreigners- are being stopped in some areas of Bangkok. A main tourist drag is the prime location, just to give visitors a new experience, and residents and visitors who are just going about their business are asked for their papers (passport) and searched. Even told to get out of taxis as they are on their way back home or to their hotel. So draw your own conclusions.

I was at immigration a while back and forgot to insert my current 90 day report into my passport. The immigration officer was nice with me and printed it out for me then warned me I can be stopped in the street by police and fined 2,000 Baht for not having the 90 day report with my passport. So contradicts all what I've heard about just needing a drivers licence or pink card. Even though I keep everything in cloud.  

[Wilsonandson]

Quote

Summarized:

If you are a tenant (or guest):
Make sure to check with your landlord within the first week of your stay that he/she has reported you. If the landlord doesn’t want to go, you could consider staying at another place, or you could report yourself at Immigration on behalf of the landlord, but then you need to get his/her proxy first (there is a separate form for that).

If you’re a landlord:
Report your foreign guest/tenant within 24 hours.

http://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-the-tm-30-form-all-you-need-to-know-about-it-and-why-it-matters-to-you-p172

So if I'm going to Pattaya it's up to the hotel to report me and if I'm going to see my wife's family it's up to myself to report the address at Immigration.

[Time Traveller]

57 minutes ago, wendyfromoz said:

aren't people concerned that they may be rounded up and deported if they sign this petition.  My concern is the military may see it as a threat to National Security and throw me out.

Let them sign it., culling a few "expats" seems like a good idea, immigration might then be a little more relaxed on everyone else.

But I agree it is a stupid regulation. 

My suggestion is ditch the petition - your name will be on the government's permanent record of foreign troublemakers - instead lobby your embassy to petition the Thai government. Thai elites only ever respond to their percieved "equals", never to the demands of the lower classes and this includes farangs. Nothing less than a foreign ambassador would be needed.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Time Traveller

[kandi]

2 hours ago, Burma Bill said:

Quote:-

"Under Article 37, any foreigner residing in Thailand who visits another province for more than 24 hours must report to immigration"

 

I am rather confused (possibly "thick") about this. I have lived in the north of Thailand for nearly 20 years and I have NEVER had to report to Immigration when travelling around the country, only for my visa extension and multiple re-entry permit- not even 90 Day reports as I regularly travel outside Thailand as well (only TM6). I live in Isaan and regularly go on long weekend shopping/tourist trips from my rented home to Chiang Mai, Mai Sai, Chiang Rai, Nong Khai, Kanchanaburi and Aranyaphratet to name a few. I get in my car and drive to my destinations. All I do is present my passport to the reception desks at the hotels as required by law. During my travels,I often get stopped at police checkpoints and I have never been asked if I had completed a TM30 for Immigration. Sorry, this petition is not for me.

Jesus, how many more times does this have to be said? This regulation has not been enforced until relatively recently.

[FarFlungFalang]

33 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Having principles is great, mostly applied till...

However I suppose there must be some who will prefer to leave Thailand than to hand over a TM30 when an Immigration officer is demand it as a condition to obtain a 1 year extension.

Yep that's me.I leave every 90 days and never seen a TM30,never been officially advised that I need one by the countless number of officials I've dealt with in the 32 years of coming here.No proof of money held in a bank account,no proof of income just pop out and back in mostly under ten minutes,unless IO makes me do the Lao visa thing(quite rare).

[ThaiLawOnline]

41 minutes ago, kandi said:

Your website says all data sent is being encrypted, but the site doesn't even use HTTPS. A little bit uncredible.

And the quote you used started by nothing is perfect. We used a server abroad, did that quickly. Even the website of our company doesn't use HTTPS. I am not a programmer, used one, but I am tired to answer question about the quality of English, no HTTPS, that we are guests in Thailand, etc.

 

I thought this was a good initiative and more than a thousand people think like me. Some trolls don't and I will never convince them. I haven't been on Thaivisa for a long time and it does not give me the taste to come back....It's like everybody knows everything here.