Meeting with immigration about TM30 and the latest news about the petition

[wobalt]

Here is an interesting note reported by Richard Barrow at last nights meeting:
 
Immigration officials said tonight that if you have a minimum of a three year rental contract, you can then get a special benefit of not having to do a TM30 again for three years

Meaning if you have a live time allowance from your wife to stay at her house you don’t have to do a TM30, as long you are married??


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Peterw42]

30 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

The section 4 of the immi act is a verbatime copy from the "law on people act".

The law of people act defines further more the case if the housemaster is not reachable.

You should go to the Ampur and clear the situation with them.

Is there a "law on people act" , I always thought it is a poorly translated reference to the constitution.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Peterw42

[SteveH]

Many Thanks for your efforts.

[Joromei]

On 8/8/2019 at 1:43 PM, paulbrow said:

I for one appreciate your efforts and thank you!

Your efforts are commendable sir 

[dallen52]

On 8/8/2019 at 7:54 AM, smedly said:

 

It was said this was introduced to stop the use of agents

 

  - this is money that would normally be used for living expenses -

 

 since the reason for its introduction has not made any difference to the use of agents and backhanders to bypass the financial rules - 

Several points there.

Two sets of rules. 

Both seen official.

 

The immigration system law.

 

The head of an immigration office ability to construe the law their own way. 

 

The system still recognizes both.

Or at least it works. 

 

I know several people who use agent/ IO chief method. 

Leave and return without issue. 

 

Personally i don't want to tie up 800k.

I support my thai family. 

Plus a bit.

 

Then there's the exchange rate that's eroded 15,000 every month for me, through no fault of my own. 

 

 

[Martyp]

51 minutes ago, wobalt said:

Meaning if you have a live time allowance from your wife to stay at her house you don’t have to do a TM30, as long you are married??


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

I’m not sure what it means. It was said by an official from CW. Might be something to ask about at your local Immigration office.

[CanadaSam]

Well, I for one got fed up with reading this post, so wrote directly to the Prime Minister.

 

 

[Redline]

Thank you for your time and effort ????????

[Isaanbiker]

On 8/8/2019 at 2:43 PM, Isaanlawyers said:

 

I can't edit the original text but here it is edited with better English:

=========================================================

 

Yesterday, I met officer Longtor at Korat Immigration. He was very nice, very polite and we had a conversation in Thai. I had with me a copy of the petition made by a group of expats and Thai people, a translation, some examples of problems related to TM30, statistics and an interpreter in case I could not fully understand. The interpreter is also a witness of everything that was said.

 

I live in Thailand since 2004. I have permanent residency and do not need to make Form TM30, form TM47 or a yearly extension. If I helped this group of expats with the petition, it is because I feel the current system needs to improve. It was recently reported that numbers of Australians and British coming to Thailand are falling, because of the high value of the baht. It was reported that there has been a 10% fall in the number of Scandinavians living in the land of smiles. The current system seems a mess, and foreigners don't know what to do. I don’t do this for exposure, and spent an incredible amount of time on this project. I manage a law firm in Thailand, and know how things work in Thailand. Often you need connections, it is important to avoid losing face, and I work on difficult cases each month. I was pretty well placed to try something new via a Facebook group. A closed group. I work with Thai lawyers every day, even if visas are not our specialty. We are more litigators, making contracts and documents in Thai and English.

 

Recently, I was told that foreign teachers travelling to other provinces on weekends had to report to immigration Monday morning, so even Thai students were penalised by the strict enforcements of sections 37 and 38 of the immigration act. Like the Bangkok Post mentioned this week, Thailand is shooting itself in the foot, and expats are furious about these rules that some found draconian.

 

It is Thai tradition to discuss, negotiate and not to confront people in Thai culture. The petition is a way to show discomfort and open a dialogue with authorities. It is not a perfect document, some complained about the English (I am a French native speaker -the first version was edited) some complained about it not going far enough (debate about health insurance, or bank deposits required, but we cannot mix everything), some complained about the SSL security of the website (added). In other words, many pissed me off all week as all I was doing was trying to help others, and I know what I am doing. I am not perfect (nobody is) but nobody else had the guts to do it, and many feared to sign the petition, thinking they might be deported. In the past, I personally helped change some laws in Canada, so I am not afraid to say what I think. Here I sued immigration twice (never for fun) in the administrative court with success. I felt that our voice needed to be heard. So with the help of hundreds of people, we made this petition. Yes, hundreds of people helped to correct texts, set up the websites, commented on the website, translated into Thai, and much more. I couldn’t see what else could be done? You want to contest articles 37 and 38 of immigration act based on clause 34 of the constitution? Well, good luck. Talking directly to Bangkok immigration is the next step.... but things in Thailand move slowly. Mediators, arbitrators, negotiations are often used in court. Starting by talking to local immigration, on the back of few thousand signatures, was the best idea we had.

 

It became quickly the talk of the town in English medias: Richard Barrow, the front page of Bangkok Post, cartoons by Stephff, The Thaiger, the Thai Examiner, Pattaya News, etc. I was amazed it went so quickly, but I was expecting more signatures. The website is still there, "Reform-Thai-immigration" (com) and we hope you sign and share so things go faster.

 

Here’s a summary of yesterday’s conversation with immigration:

 

We were told that tourists are not affected by these rules. They want the same as before. But AirBNB must report foreign guests just like hotels.
Immigration understand that expats brings a lot of money to Thailand. But they seem to see two problems:

 

i) A large proportion of foreign workers are from Cambodia, Laos and Burma. Something like 3 million in the country. Often, they do not respect rules and regulations. That is a major problem for immigration. Rules are enforced largely for them but as there is only one law, it affects foreigners from Western countries.

 

ii) it seems that some Indian visitors have abused rules, arriving for example in Phuket, arranging fake marriages with Thai ladies, then disappearing in other provinces. TM 30 started to be more rigorously enforced especially for them, to be able to trace criminals or people abusing the system. Of course terrorists won’t provide their addresses, and I pointed this out. Still, immigration want to be strict on TM30 and TM30, and once registered, it is the responsibility of the Thai landlord to conform.

 

However each immigration office can apply its own rules, which I think is a headache and doesn’t make sense. But this senior officer explained to us how he wants them to apply in Korat. If you are not a tourist and arrive from abroad, even if articles 37 and 38 mention 24 hours, they will give you 7 days to register the TM30. Foreigners have to register TM30 only ONCE (and not tourists) and afterwards, it is the responsibility of the Thai landlord. If you leave Thailand for a while and never registered TM30, you will be fined as a foreigner. I believe it is between 800 to 2,000 baht.

 

Once you are registered in the system, it is the Thai landlord, and NOT the foreigner - the Thai landlord (or hotel) that will pay the fines. I STRONGLY suggest that Thai landlords ask a RECEIPT for ANY FINE and it is the duty of immigration to provide these receipts. We all know about corruption, and we should all fight it, slowly, to make this place better.

 

Now, if you look at clause 37 (4) of the immigration act, a foreigner that goes to another province for 24 hours must report to authorities. This was never previously enforced to my knowledge and in Nakhon Ratchasima, they don’t care about it. They care about TM6, that you made on your arrival in Thailand (airport), the registration of TM30 that you make one time, the 90 days notice (TM47) that you make if you live 90 days in Kingdom, and your yearly extension

 

Each immigration office can have its own rules, which I think is a headache and a non sense. But this high officer explained us how he wants them apply in Korat. If you are not a tourist and arrive from abroad, even if articles 37 and 38 talk about 24 hours, they will give you 7 days to register the TM30. Foreigners have to register TM30 only ONCE (and not tourists) and after, it is the duty of the Thai landlord. If you leave in Thailand for a while and never registered TM30, you will be fine as a foreigner. I believe it is between 800 to 2,000 baht.

 

Two great pieces of news:

 

1) There is a committee set up, looking to modify the immigration law already in place. But changing laws take time. The head of immigration in Korat is part of that committee and they know some changes must be made. They want to make it easier for foreigners. I even talked about the high value of the baht, and they know it causes problems for some retirees.

 

2) But the best news is a document, an order signed on 5th August 2019, that I saw. They did not permit me to make a copy as it is an internal document. However summing up, it is an order from Bangkok to make an application online for all forms, to simplify things. That means TM6, TM30, TM47, will all be online, accessible on your phone, and you won’t have to go to immigration. You will only have to go once a year to immigration for your extension. The 5th of August is the same day that the Bangkok Post mentioned our petition on the front page with the title « Furore over TM30 forms ». Quite sincerely, I think the authorities did listen to us, and the petition helped. It is a coincidence?

 

Other comments were made but again, it can be different depending on the immigration office where you live. In Korat, they told us that if we go to Pattaya on a weekend, we don’t have to report. This is clearly against the articles 37 and 38, but I think immigration understand that they do not want to hurt tourism. But if you do go abroad, yes, your landlord must report via the TM30 on your return.

Other comments were said but again, it can be different depending on the immigration office you live. In Korat, they told us that if we go to Pattaya a weekend, we don’t have to report. This is clearly against the articles 37 and 38, but I think immigration understand that they do not want to hurt tourism. But if you do abroad, yes, your landlord must report tm30 at your return.

 

If you go and sleep at a friend’s house, outside the province, this officer told us not to bother with reporting and paperwork.... that is also against the rules, but if you think about it, who could know if you slept over at your friend’s house. This is different situation from hotels and hotels, or from landlords, who still must report your stay. Again, 37(4) is not enforced according to immigration guidelines.
Let’s hope this online application works well, and will happen quickly. On that, we have no guarantees.

 

The current system is confused. There are too many forms, too many rules and I clearly told them our views. Immigration could explain the rules on their websites and apply them the same way in each office nationally. That would be a great improvement.

 

I would like to note that in the last 10 days, some individuals have tried to block our initiative. Some foreigners make money by helping others having to obtain visas, and it is in their interest to keep rules complicated and unclear. That is a shame. If you want to develop tourism, investment and economy, the rules should be clear and uniformly enforced.

We were told also that because there is a new government, a new cabinet, things are slower.

 

On 15th August, the FCC (Foreign Correspondents Club) is planning a panel on TM30 and immigration rules. Foreign journalists will be invited, and the subject might hit the news again. We were told that if the FCC wants an immigration officer present, they need to write a letter to immigration. I should be there if this event takes place.

 

No names of anybody who helped, signed, or contributed were made public. You can share this post, copy it and provide the information to whoever you want. If you think something is wrong in the following text, let me know. Thanks.

(English edited)

 

 

I really wanted to thank you very much for your effort time and energy that you've put in. We in Sisaket province do not have to file such a form, that was done by a decent guy who got in touch with our local Immigration office.

 

    I've also signed the petition, but I truly believe that an IO from Korat doesn't have a lot of manpower to do anything. I've just seen that you're planning to get in touch with Bangkok Immigration, but that can and will take a lot of time. 

 

     I also wanted to let you know that the number 10,000 might have been  a bit too high. There are plenty of people who can't use a computer and those who don't understand English, or Thai.

 

IMO, 5,000 signatures should be enough, but when is enough really enough? I wish you'll have all the power that's needed to continue. Best of luck and a great and long weekend without stress for you.

 

    Kind regards from an ex- European neighbor. 

 

             

 

 

[Autonuaq]

On 8/8/2019 at 8:01 AM, Mavideol said:

maybe could pinch in about their request to have 800K blocked at the bank, many of us are property owners, why not use the property as the collateral and allow us to use the cash for daily living expenses,

The property has no value due the that fact that only Thai can hold the land. So the property will also belong to the thai land owner.

This is even in the western countries the same.

The legal contract that recongize the ownership and can be used by foreingers and prevent this they are not legal under thai law. This has to be changed by the goverment.

 

When you rent land the land owner will become to owner of the asets put on the plot.

 

Other solution is permant the residence visa for the foreigner. Then all problems are solved and the foreigner can wven own land. No need for the 800.000 thb in the bank too.

[ThaiLawOnline]

Richard Barrow was at the meeting with head of immigration yesterday and some Indian communities or their chambers of commerces. Rules in Bangkok seems that if you leave the province, 24 hours, you must report.

 

Check his main website. It is more and more confuse.

[Isaanbiker]

3 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

Richard Barrow was at the meeting with head of immigration yesterday and some Indian communities or their chambers of commerces. Rules in Bangkok seems that if you leave the province, 24 hours, you must report.

 

Check his main website. It is more and more confuse.

Really saddening is that it got more and more confusing when a particular guy took over. It wouldn't be like that without him. One more petition...........( kidding)

[ThaiLawOnline]

3 hours ago, NightSky said:

The website security is flawed and anyone can access the database. Hope you didn’t use your main email address - expect lots of spam and scam emails if you signed it and if the website is still up without any security.

 

there is a difference between fearfulness and stupidity.

 

Two possibilities:

 

1) You are a troll and liar. In that case, we should care what you say.

 

2) You can prove to me that you can access the database of signature. SHOW ME (at [email protected]) who is the first signature in the SQL database and maybe 25, just for fun. And if you do so, you should help us to repair it instead of whining.

 

I think you probably make money with visas and try to make the people afraid to sign. That's really how I feel and I am rarely wrong about people. They don't jump on every opportunities like you do to scare people without explaining how there is a breach of security.

 

Waiting for your email.

[ThaiLawOnline]

5 hours ago, bastco said:

Hi Sebastian,

I really appreciate your efforts. Would you be able to request uniformity of Immigration Law throughout Thailand Immigration Provincial Offices be strictly enforced and adhered to under threat of penalty to the offending office and a Call Centre number provided specifically to report any office not complying. Maybe worded/composed by an expat lawyer who is already respected by Thai Immigration heirarchy and maybe an expat media station who could request an explanation publicly from Thai Immigration Head Office. I find it hard to believe that the top brass in TI are aware of the "Own rules system" applied by individual Provincial offices

I believe this problem has only got progressively worse and needs to be addressed asap. 

 

On 15th of August, there will be a panel of foreign correspondent. I was invited, Richard Barrow will be there, probably BBC if they are in town, etc. We will discuss of many issues. It is not normal to have laws so complex, rules different from an office to another, so many forms TM6, TM28, TM30, TM47, all information should be clear and concise on their website. After all, tourism is making money for Thailand. Only expats in Isaan bring 9 billion baht to the economy. They have to realize it and I think they do. In Thailand, everything is cha cha....

[dogfish180]

 "A large proportion of foreign workers are from Cambodia, Laos and Burma. Something like 3 million in the country. Often, they do not respect rules and regulations. That is a major problem for immigration. Rules are enforced largely for them but as there is only one law, it affects foreigners from Western countries."

 

Ummm.....Don't respect rules.......Rules are enforced for them??? Slight contradiction. Make rules for people who don't follow rules. 

[ThaiLawOnline]

13 hours ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

Because it contains information albeit unpalatable. 

 

The information given by immigration is often very difficult to get. They make complicated rules for reasons that I think but won't say. I wanted a copy of their internal memo signed on 5th August but they refused. However, I saw it.

 

In 2008, I got a copy in Thai of rules 777/2551 and we translated them for free. That was great information. Right now, on TM30, it is a MESS. What I know, I put it on thailawonline (not about visa but other law subjects). Even then, it's difficult to update, I have to work (my gf has 4 children) and Thai law is a mess. I do think Richard Barrow does his best. 

 

When I did my permanent residency, I got copies of documents that are not public. But If I put them public, do you think immigration will like me? Already, they don't like me very much but they like when I provide English info to foreigners.

[ThaiLawOnline]

3 minutes ago, dogfish180 said:

 "A large proportion of foreign workers are from Cambodia, Laos and Burma. Something like 3 million in the country. Often, they do not respect rules and regulations. That is a major problem for immigration. Rules are enforced largely for them but as there is only one law, it affects foreigners from Western countries."

 

Ummm.....Don't respect rules.......Rules are enforced for them??? Slight contradiction. Make rules for people who don't follow rules. 

 

They often come without a visa, or with a visa and overstay, for example. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Isaanlawyers
added.

[schlemmi]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Is there a "law on people act" , I always thought it is a poorly translated reference to the constitution.

Its a poor translation to the citicens registration act.  Its where all around the housebook is ruled.

[Mavideol]

24 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

 

On 15th of August, there will be a panel of foreign correspondent. I was invited, Richard Barrow will be there, probably BBC if they are in town, etc. We will discuss of many issues. It is not normal to have laws so complex, rules different from an office to another, so many forms TM6, TM28, TM30, TM47, all information should be clear and concise on their website. After all, tourism is making money for Thailand. Only expats in Isaan bring 9 billion baht to the economy. They have to realize it and I think they do. In Thailand, everything is cha cha....

maybe bring up the "red/brown envelope" system and how much that also affects their tourism

[Guest]

I thank issan lawyers for the post and a great explanation of what the IO in Korat think etc.

i live in Maha sarakham and they do not do online 90 days like some other offices so i hope they move quickly with the online lodgements as i live over an hour from the immigration office,

I have signed the petition and happy to do anything i can to help the organisers as i sent it to all my friends to do the same.

[jackdd]

25 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

I wanted a copy of their internal memo signed on 5th August but they refused. However, I saw it.

Police orders always come with an index number, which index number did this one have?

[drbrit]

@Isaanlawyers I for one really appreciate you championing these efforts to take this up with immigration and for your effort with the website, the petition of which I signed too.

I have worked here for 21 years, legally married with family, have condo in BKK and at a beach village in Sattahip district. 

I work in BKK Monday to Friday but weekend at our beach condo which I own. By their regulation I should report to immigration in BKK every Monday, other than do my job, which an employer would not tolerate. 

Similarly I and many farang friends are keen mountain bikers and often do day trips out of BKK at weekends. Again, this would mean Mondays at immigration. Clearly the current construction of these regulations is senseless for many people, and against the spirit of good guys in, bad guys out. It is making it much harder for good guys who pay taxes, support families, invest in properties and the stock market. 

 

I've registered with the section 38 app some time ago, but still have not received an ID or password to do TM30 reporting online. This flakey and unreliable nature of anything online with the government adds to the frustration. 

 

I would gladly support any efforts to revise these regulations

[johnarth]

Thanks for your help an old saying get the ball rolling and who knows where it will stop I looked at the Aussie dollar Thai baht again today and horror horror the Aussie dollar has slipped further I have one payment to go on a new home that I am thinking I might not get to live in and the look I got from my wife when I said a little more and I have to go Cambodia talk about looks can kill a cat

[bluemoon58]

On 8/8/2019 at 7:01 AM, Mavideol said:

maybe could pinch in about their request to have 800K blocked at the bank, many of us are property owners, why not use the property as the collateral and allow us to use the cash for daily living expenses,

Isaanlawyers,

 

Your efforts are very much appreciated. I also agree with Mavideol that if you own property, this should be accepted in lieu of the 800K. I currently have two lots of 800K tied up and that's a lorra, lorra money that I could put to better use.

[MJKT2014]

1 hour ago, Isaanlawyers said:

Check his main website. It is more and more confuse.

His web site says nothing we didn't know already. On his twitter he said he was going for a discussion, but by the sounds of it he just got the law laid down to him again.

[Michelle2019]

You are a superstar for doing this - thank you very much! It is difficult to get to the bottom of these things in this country.

 

As in all countries, many officials (and many soccer managers, which I have not heard the end of with the latest transfer news) will repeat themselves and the law because they do not want to cause an issue. 

 

Step 1 is done. Dialogue has been opened which is great - well done for that. We also found out who is abusing the system, plus the fact that there are law changes being considered - thank you for this! Some people may have already known this, but for others like me, this is where I am getting my information - very helpful!

Edited August 9, 2019 by Michelle2019

[Sumarianson]

4 hours ago, looplaw said:

Move. Find a landlord who will comply with TM 30. 

Report the landlord to yhe tax office as he is obviously trying to avoid paying taxes and does not want a link to him. If you have a juristic they will sign it. I had the same problem many years ago.

[Number 6]

On 8/8/2019 at 1:01 PM, Mavideol said:

maybe could pinch in about their request to have 800K blocked at the bank, many of us are property owners, why not use the property as the collateral and allow us to use the cash for daily living expenses,

No one knows why the stipulation to have money on hand. Common wisdom would state it should be in cash and not timed deposit. Clearly a home is an illiquid asset.

[LivinLOS]

17 minutes ago, MJKT2014 said:

His web site says nothing we didn't know already. On his twitter he said he was going for a discussion, but by the sounds of it he just got the law laid down to him again.

Really.. first time anyones thrown the 3 year rental contract becomes a permanent address and no 24h reporting required into anything I have read.. 

 

Of course lets make a bet that tomorrow thats different again. 

[KhaoYai]

It is a fact that some Indians caused problems for many of us. In particular they faked some of the documents required when marrying a Thai citizen namely, the Affirmation of Freedom to Marry and its certified translation by the MFA.  That created a situation where some Amphur managers refused to register marriages between Thai's and foreigners. I believe that situation no longer exists but it has caused more documentation to be required - i.e. a translated, certified copy of your passport. Rules on having witnesses and a translator present at wedding registrations are being enforced at most Amphurs etc. etc. - a general enforcement of pre-existing rules that had perhaps not been so rigorously applied previously.

 

I hadn't realised the enforcement of TM30 was also brought about by the actions of these people. But again, its not something new, its enforcement of pre-existing rules.

 

However, the whole system of reporting - TM28/30/47 seems over-complicated and involves a lot of duplication. In fact, there are many issues with immigration that could be improved to the benefit of both visitors and the Thai authorities.

 

Establishing a line of communication with Thai Immigration may provide the basis for mutual improvements. Airing your views on Thai Visa is simply a discussion, it may be helpful but it won't bring about change.

 

The 'Thai Way' of doing things in many spheres is often baggy, overlong and over complicated but I believe that is some instances it may also be caused by poor translation and the fact that some of those enforcing the laws don't understand them themselves.

 

I believe there is an example of exactly that in the replies Isaan Lawyers received during the meeting with Officer Longtor. His statement that foreigners only have to register TM30 once and after that its the duty of the landlord is certainly at odds with the regulations.

 

This shows how difficult getting any change/reform of Thai Immigration is going to be but at least Isaan Lawyers have made a start. I for one, really appreciate that you have given up a hell of a lot of your free time to deal with matters that are not a problem for you personally as you have permanent residence.

 

I completely understand why the negativity of some posters here 'pissed you off' but please understand, many people support your efforts. Do not be put off by those who choose to sit and complain but do nothing themselves.