Enough of the "but, but, but....Biden!" 
 
Trump solicited help from a foreign national for his election campaign, which is illegal, and made it clear that future US military aid to Ukraine was contingent on getting this election help, which is an abuse of power.  All else is deflection.

It's a corrupt abuse of presidential power. It doesn't even need to be technically illegal to be worthy of being an Impeachable offense.

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1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

No for the policeman there would be career gains by being seen to do good police work. It would look good on his record.

 

Just as politicians are motivated by political gains. That's how they get elected and stay in power. Things that look good on their record make people vote for them. And exposing corruption in a rival is not only the right thing to do, it is politically expedient.

 

The left has been digging up dirt relentlessly as their only policy move appears to be impeachment. If they actually got some dirt it would help them too. The left has no room to complain about dirt digging. It is all they do.

Does the policeman do good work by investigating the same things over and over, hoping to eventually get a different result.  The Biden Ukraine claim was investigated and no crime found.  By asking for a new investigation in a manner that makes it clear military aid is dependent on the investigation, Trump is clearly asking for an new results, regardless of the evidence or lack there of.

 

The "left" is getting results.  Russian interference has been identified, Trump campaign officials charged and convicted, Trump appointees resigning due to conflicts.  Where did you get the idea that no dirt had been identified?

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I agree with your entire post and I don't like any of that "but,but,but" stuff either. Still, it has never been clear to me how soliciting help from a foreign national for an election campaign, by proxy, is substantially different than seeking help from a foreign national for an election campaign directly. The intent of both actions, it seems to me, are clearly illegal. 

Are you unclear on the difference between hiring a foreign national to do research and soliciting, or extorting, help from a foreign government?

12 hours ago, beechguy said:

But Joe has a track record, and Trump is the least of his problems, when it comes to the nomination. Never mind comments from a Trump supporter, look at the comments from his fellow Democrats.

Biden has a track record whereas Trump doesn't? I'd say you have a blind spot but it's more like a blind expanse.

Trump is now characterizing as spies and traitors the people who passed along the information to the whistleblower. You'll note that he's not calling them liars. In other words, they passed along genuine information that, according to his lights, they shouldn't have done.

17 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Are you unclear on the difference between hiring a foreign national to do research and soliciting, or extorting, help from a foreign government?

 

No, not at all, but that's not what I as alluding to.

 

38 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Trump is now characterizing as spies and traitors the people who passed along the information to the whistleblower. You'll note that he's not calling them liars. In other words, they passed along genuine information that, according to his lights, they shouldn't have done.

He says multiple horrifying things most every day. He has tried to make that sickness NORMAL for the American public. Sadly that has succeeded on too many people.

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Does the policeman do good work by investigating the same things over and over, hoping to eventually get a different result.  The Biden Ukraine claim was investigated and no crime found.  By asking for a new investigation in a manner that makes it clear military aid is dependent on the investigation, Trump is clearly asking for an new results, regardless of the evidence or lack there of.

 

The "left" is getting results.  Russian interference has been identified, Trump campaign officials charged and convicted, Trump appointees resigning due to conflicts.  Where did you get the idea that no dirt had been identified?

If a policeman gets a result on a crime that has gone cold that would be good work. When you ask different questions or talk to different people you might find critical evidence.

OK if you want to say the left has found some dirt, that is fine, But it is not the dirt they were looking for.

Just for clarity's sake. I think all of the high end politicians are dirty. But the hard part is proving it.

19 hours ago, heybruce said:

Are you unclear on the difference between hiring a foreign national to do research and soliciting, or extorting, help from a foreign government?

Isn't that what the Dems did when they hired a British ex spy to dig up dirt on Trump?

Did anyone go to jail for that?

What's good for the goose etc.

Seems to me it's all bluster, designed to muddy the water for the election. IMO Pelosi must know that it has such a small chance of succeeding in the Senate that it's just a waste of time, and money to carry on.

However, IMO, Trump will turn this to his advantage by using it to mock the Dems in his campaign.

Pelosi will, IMO, come to rue the day she went down this dead end road.

Four more years helped by the Dems.

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Isn't that what the Dems did when they hired a British ex spy to dig up dirt on Trump?

Did anyone go to jail for that?

What's good for the goose etc.

The ex spy was not a govt official.

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Isn't that what the Dems did when they hired a British ex spy to dig up dirt on Trump?

Did anyone go to jail for that?

What's good for the goose etc.

Wait, you don't see a difference between hiring someone, anyone, do dig up dirt and pressuring a head of state to dig up dirt under punishment of not getting promosed funds?

2 minutes ago, Sujo said:

The ex spy was not a govt official.

Fair enough. So it comes down to whether Trump actually extorted the Ukrainians to help him, or if they did it willingly.

 

Regardless, the impeachment has little chance of success with the present information. It would take a lot more, IMO, to persuade Republican senators to risk the wrath of their voters than what we have heard so far.

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems to me it's all bluster, designed to muddy the water for the election. IMO Pelosi must know that it has such a small chance of succeeding in the Senate that it's just a waste of time, and money to carry on.

However, IMO, Trump will turn this to his advantage by using it to mock the Dems in his campaign.

Pelosi will, IMO, come to rue the day she went down this dead end road.

Four more years helped by the Dems.

 

The dems want Biden out. They are willing to feed on their own and have thrown him under the bus. The problem for the dems is that their donors are about to jump ship if Warren is the nominee. 

 

Bloomberg might even decide to run because anybody with money and half a brain wants America to continue to be successful. 

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Wait, you don't see a difference between hiring someone, anyone, do dig up dirt and pressuring a head of state to dig up dirt under punishment of not getting promosed funds?

If Biden didn't get prosecuted for pressuring the Ukranians under threat of not getting funding to remove an inconvenient prosecutor, I don't see how it's different for Trump doing what he did, even if he did pressure the guy, and that isn't proven so far.

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Fair enough. So it comes down to whether Trump actually extorted the Ukrainians to help him, or if they did it willingly.

 

Regardless, the impeachment has little chance of success with the present information. It would take a lot more, IMO, to persuade Republican senators to risk the wrath of their voters than what we have heard so far.

No it doesnt need to be extortion. The act of trump asking a foreign govt to investigate a political rival is enough. The witholding of the aid money is just the icing.

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

If Biden didn't get prosecuted for pressuring the Ukranians under threat of not getting funding to remove an inconvenient prosecutor, I don't see how it's different for Trump doing what he did, even if he did pressure the guy, and that isn't proven so far.

Because biden didnt ask them to investigate anything.

Just now, Sujo said:

Because biden didnt ask them to investigate anything.

 

Biden is the center of what should have been investigated, that's corruption.

6 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

 

The dems want Biden out. They are willing to feed on their own and have thrown him under the bus. The problem for the dems is that their donors are about to jump ship if Warren is the nominee. 

 

Bloomberg might even decide to run because anybody with money and half a brain wants America to continue to be successful. 

Successful for whom?

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If Biden didn't get prosecuted for pressuring the Ukranians under threat of not getting funding to remove an inconvenient prosecutor, I don't see how it's different for Trump doing what he did, even if he did pressure the guy, and that isn't proven so far.

Because Biden was carrying out US government policy. And the US wasn't the only party that wanted that prosecutor out. So did many European nations and the IMF. He wasn't doing his job. And he wasn't pursuing Burisma, the company which had Hunter Biden on its board.

2 minutes ago, Sujo said:

No it doesnt need to be extortion. The act of trump asking a foreign govt to investigate a political rival is enough. The witholding of the aid money is just the icing.

Regardless, to convict Trump takes 2/3 of  the senate. Good luck on that succeeding. Would have to be a lot worse to convince GOP senators to risk losing their seats by outraged voters than a bit of dirty tricks.

It's not like they are going to convince the Trump voters to abandon him in favour of a Dem candidate by saying "bad man, bad man". I doubt any Trump voter gives a monkey's about any of it. None of them think Trump is perfect, nor do they hold any politician in high regard- Washington swamp and all that.

5 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Successful for whom?

LOL. Rich people.

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Regardless, to convict Trump takes 2/3 of  the senate. Good luck on that succeeding. Would have to be a lot worse to convince GOP senators to risk losing their seats by outraged voters than a bit of dirty tricks.

It's not like they are going to convince the Trump voters to abandon him in favour of a Dem candidate by saying "bad man, bad man". I doubt any Trump voter gives a monkey's about any of it. None of them think Trump is perfect, nor do they hold any politician in high regard- Washington swamp and all that.

Oh I disagree there are many republicans that don’t want a criminal for president 

24 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If Biden didn't get prosecuted for pressuring the Ukranians under threat of not getting funding to remove an inconvenient prosecutor, I don't see how it's different for Trump doing what he did, even if he did pressure the guy, and that isn't proven so far.

Because that was not Biden but the western governments, including USA. The request to remove the guy was because of corruption inaction. You have it exactly backwards.

19 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Because that was not Biden but the western governments, including USA. The request to remove the guy was because of corruption inaction. You have it exactly backwards.

They get a lot of stuff backwards that’s the way trump operates then the supporters belive him amazing how so many are so gullible 

48 minutes ago, Tug said:

Oh I disagree there are many republicans that don’t want a criminal for president 

Given he hasn't been convicted of anything to state that he IS a criminal may be slander or libel- I'm not sure which applies.

Regardless, the GOP senators in Trump strongholds would be reluctant to convict him if they want to keep their seats.

 

I see no point in continuing my contribution to this thread, so bye.

mayor rudy reads texts from State Department (Kurt Volker) on Fox.

 

Kust Volker resigns shortly threreafter. Not sure how long pompeo can last? "My name's rudy and I'm here to help." Run.

 

Always amazing to me that he wears that World Series ring.

 

Amid controversy, Kurt Volker, Trump’s envoy to Ukraine, resigns, sources say

 

President Donald Trump’s special representative for Ukraine, Kurt Volker, resigned on Friday, sources familiar with the situation said.

 

A whistleblower complaint from within the intelligence community, released publicly on Thursday, described Volker as trying to “contain the damage” from efforts by Trump’s lawyer Rudy Giuliani to press Ukraine to investigate Democrats.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/27/kurt-volker-trumps-envoy-to-ukraine-resigns-sources-say.html

2 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

 

Biden is the center of what should have been investigated, that's corruption.

Then why didn't they have an official investigation on Biden? Why the secrecy and behind the scene moves?

 

Why all the lies and on-going cover ups from the White House if the investigation into Biden was on the up and up?
 

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems to me it's all bluster, designed to muddy the water for the election. IMO Pelosi must know that it has such a small chance of succeeding in the Senate that it's just a waste of time, and money to carry on.

However, IMO, Trump will turn this to his advantage by using it to mock the Dems in his campaign.

Pelosi will, IMO, come to rue the day she went down this dead end road.

Four more years helped by the Dems.

 

Got it backwards. The criticism of Trump's actions is pretty straightforward. The deployed deflections and whataboutery by Trump, his administration and supporters (yourself included) is what muddies the water.

 

 

2 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

 

Biden is the center of what should have been investigated, that's corruption.

 

A Trump supporter going on about corruption.