Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I've asked this question before, but nobody seemed to want to answer.

 

Who would be an independent Scotland's largest trading partner?

 

I don't know the answer, but I would speculate that it's the remainder of the UK. 

 

So the same argument I would have for the bizarre logic of the UK as a whole leaving their largest trading partner, the EU, why would any Scot in their corn fed mind leave their largest trading partner and basically become some very small country trading outside of the UK or EU on WTO terms?

Then again in the bizarre world in which we currently live any nutjob idea can gain traction on social media.

 

I personally am negotiating that South Dakota secede from the Union, while simultaneously negotiating a free trade agreement with Canada. We need to keep those damn Coloradans and North Dakotans out of our State.

 

...now where is my twitter feed to get this going?

I am not familiar with the term 'corn fed mind' - should I feel insulted?

 

Is South Dakota a country in its own right? Has it ever been a sovereign nation with is own suite of institutions which make it so?

 

But even to equate SD and Scotland now is a mistake. The US is a federation which, I believe, confers significantly greater powers to the state than the Micky mouse powers afforded to our Micky mouse parliament.

[DefaultName]

Well, I'm proud Scots, but I don't want this.  On a nationalist level yes, but economically, we can't do it.  People keep going on about oil money, but there are legal agreements in place about that, what are we going to do, throw them away and nationalise it?  That wouldn't go down with the community of nations that we'd be a part of!

 

As to staying in the EU, not possible as I understand things, we'd have to leave with the rest of the UK, then get independence, then apply to join - and why would they want us?  We'd be a net taker, not a net giver, and they have plenty of those already.

 

 

So, attractive idea, but no.

[GinBoy2]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

I am not familiar with the term 'corn fed mind' - should I feel insulted?

 

Is South Dakota a country in its own right? Has it ever been a sovereign nation with is own suite of institutions which make it so?

 

But even to equate SD and Scotland now is a mistake. The US is a federation which, I believe, confers significantly greater powers to the state than the Micky mouse powers afforded to our Micky mouse parliament.

Every US State is a sovereign entity.

 

As an American Anglophile, who looks at the UK thats part of the problem. 

 

In a Federal system like the US, sovereign entities cede power to to the center, while always being able to fall back on the often cited 'States Rights' when they believe the center has overstepped that delegation of power to Washington. 

 

The UK has in my opinion the worst of all worlds. A pseudo Federal system, with constituant parts having different levels of autonomy, and the largest part England having no independent representation from the center.

 

The situation you have right now is akin to South Dakota & Wyoming having sovereign governments, and Texas and California being ruled directly from DC.

 

Maybe now would be the time to have those hard constitutional discussions before it all gets really ugly

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, DefaultName said:

Well, I'm proud Scots, but I don't want this.  On a nationalist level yes, but economically, we can't do it.  People keep going on about oil money, but there are legal agreements in place about that, what are we going to do, throw them away and nationalise it?  That wouldn't go down with the community of nations that we'd be a part of!

 

As to staying in the EU, not possible as I understand things, we'd have to leave with the rest of the UK, then get independence, then apply to join - and why would they want us?  We'd be a net taker, not a net giver, and they have plenty of those already.

 

 

So, attractive idea, but no.

Why do you think that we are uniquely incapable of managing our own affairs, a situation that is normal for a significant number of small Nations, who cope just fine.

 

I don't understand your point about oil agreements. What do you think will need to be changed about existing licenses and why?

 

The EU has already clearly signalled that Scotland would be welcome back in the fold. Despite your own unfortunate doubt about our abilities, they don't see is as either too wee or too poor.

[sunnyboy2018]

If Scotland left the UK it could take up to 14 years for the Europeans to accept them! Aye! And the wee bampots wantnto keep stirling! The scotch wont get another referendum.

[sunnyboy2018]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Why do you think that we are uniquely incapable of managing our own affairs, a situation that is normal for a significant number of small Nations, who cope just fine.

 

I don't understand your point about oil agreements. What do you think will need to be changed about existing licenses and why?

 

The EU has already clearly signalled that Scotland would be welcome back in the fold. Despite your own unfortunate doubt about our abilities, they don't see is as either too wee or too poor.

The EU has not signalled any such welcome.  Quite the opposite.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

The EU has not signalled any such welcome.  Quite the opposite.

Well we are discussing what may be, but I can show ample positive indications of an EU favourable to Scotland rejoining - such as the words of Herman van Rompuy: 

 

"I think there is a change, yes, because for a lot of people they are looking at what Scottish people are in favour of. They want to stay in the European Union and at the same time they are prevented to stay in the European Union because there is this Brexit case, and there is not much sympathy for the Brexit case in the European Union, not among the leaders and not among the men and women in the street."

 

How about Spanish Foreign Minister Joseph Borrell:

 

Asked if a Sanchez government would accept Scotland’s EU application to join if Scotland left the United Kingdom and fulfilled the requirements of the UK constitution, Borrell said: "Why not? If they leave Britain in accordance with their internal regulation, if Westminster agrees ... If Westminster agrees, why should we be against it?"

 

But I am always interested to hear all sides of the debate. Perhaps you can link to those negative EU signals to which you referred?

[JonnyF]

42 minutes ago, DefaultName said:

Well, I'm proud Scots, but I don't want this.  On a nationalist level yes, but economically, we can't do it.  People keep going on about oil money, but there are legal agreements in place about that, what are we going to do, throw them away and nationalise it?  That wouldn't go down with the community of nations that we'd be a part of!

 

As to staying in the EU, not possible as I understand things, we'd have to leave with the rest of the UK, then get independence, then apply to join - and why would they want us?  We'd be a net taker, not a net giver, and they have plenty of those already.

 

 

So, attractive idea, but no.

Absolutely right.

 

Plus as a small country amongst 27 others you'd be less independent then you are currently as one of 4 countries that you share a massive history with (good and bad) and huge cultural ties.

 

As I said before, if Scotland wants to leave I wouldn't oppose that but I think it would be a huge mistake and 55% of proud Scots appear to realize that.

[ThaiBunny]

Just now, JonnyF said:

Plus as a small country amongst 27 others you'd be less independent then you are currently as one of 4 countries that you share a massive history with (good and bad) and huge cultural ties.

You're a spoilsport. Think of the entertainment value the negotiations over simple things like the customs border and the currency are going to provide

[evadgib]

Of interest to this board seen this morning (& made me laugh) & will no doubt have the 'Far Right' paint brushers reaching for their dulux...

 

Key Phrase: "The Ginger Dwarf from the north!" ????

 

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Absolutely right.

 

Plus as a small country amongst 27 others you'd be less independent then you are currently as one of 4 countries that you share a massive history with (good and bad) and huge cultural ties.

 

As I said before, if Scotland wants to leave I wouldn't oppose that but I think it would be a huge mistake and 55% of proud Scots appear to realize that.

Why, exactly, would it be a mistake? Undesirable for some, sure, but what is the mistake about wanting to take control of your own future?

[evadgib]

10 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Absolutely right.

 

Plus as a small country amongst 27 others you'd be less independent then you are currently as one of 4 countries that you share a massive history with (good and bad) and huge cultural ties.

 

As I said before, if Scotland wants to leave I wouldn't oppose that but I think it would be a huge mistake and 55% of proud Scots appear to realize that.

That's pretty much how I see it too.

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

You're a spoilsport. Think of the entertainment value the negotiations over simple things like the customs border and the currency are going to provide

Apparently it is going to be a walk in the park between Ireland and NI so we can replicate the same. Problem solved by Brexiteer technology...

[RuamRudy]

26 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Plus as a small country amongst 27 others you'd be less independent then you are currently as one of 4 countries that you share a massive history with (good and bad) and huge cultural ties.

The UK didn't need to ask permission from the EU to hold the Brexit referendum. Now we have a man representing a party which has had no moral authority in my country since 1955, and has only 10% of the country's MPs telling us that he won't allow us to express our democratic will? In what way does this represent even a hint of self determination?

 

 

[JonnyF]

25 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Why, exactly, would it be a mistake? Undesirable for some, sure, but what is the mistake about wanting to take control of your own future?

My opinion is that you would not be in control of your own future if you joined the EU.

 

If you are confident enough to really take control of your own future by going it alone (outside the UK and the EU) then I have huge respect for that and wish you all the best. 

 

But swapping the UK for the EU is a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire. You'd be less independent than you are now.

[david555]

1 hour ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

If Scotland left the UK it could take up to 14 years for the Europeans to accept them! Aye! And the wee bampots wantnto keep stirling! The scotch wont get another referendum.

Let's see how long it go take for the U.K. if they still go be like they where already 3 years now....,Macron gave already a shot upfront the bow , remembering the U.K. to keep up E.U. standards if they wish to make trade with E.U. …..

 

Strange …,U.K. may leave that other UNION  called E.U. , but The Scots who even in History had their own Kings and some became even your King  can not, may not, step out of your Union …… again double standards from the Brits English …!

And we E.U. are called by many here  undemocratic ….ridiculous double standards , if they realy want independence they shall take it 

Edited December 14, 2019 by david555

[david555]

14 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

Well, as a convinced European I would be very happy to see Scotland joining the EU and I am not alone in thinking this. 

The main reason is that this nation is friendly and favorable to US.

Besides, the unique personality in the world of Scotland and the Scots brings advantages which go far beyond the immediate economic considerations.

Read  and see how important Scotland was and how strong sided with Europe eg France ….always more bound to the European continent 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years'_War

[yogi100]

1 hour ago, sunnyboy2018 said:

If Scotland left the UK it could take up to 14 years for the Europeans to accept them! Aye! And the wee bampots wantnto keep stirling! The scotch wont get another referendum.

Stirling is bang in the centre of Scotland. No matter what happens the Jocks are extremely unlikely to let Stirling become separated from the rest of the Scotland.

[JAG]

3 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

Well, as a convinced European I would be very happy to see Scotland joining the EU and I am not alone in thinking this. 

The main reason is that this nation is friendly and favorable to US.

Besides, the unique personality in the world of Scotland and the Scots brings advantages which go far beyond the immediate economic considerations.

I very much doubt whether these sentiments (for that is what they are, sentiments) will be sufficient to overcome the hard realities of meeting the economic requirements for joining the EU.

 

As for the whole concept of independence, well, if the majority of Scots feel that the UK is no longer for them, and the advocates of independence manage to persuade them, and win a referendum on independence, then fair enough. Off you jolly well go! As an Englishman however, I think that you should make a clean break, particularly in terms of a currency ( you will have to accept that if you wish to continue to use the Pound Sterling then you will have no control over it). You will have to assume responsibility for funding all pensions and the like for your people, and there should be no funds transferred from England to make up any shortfalls. Sorting that out will no doubt take a couple of years, and only then, when all those matters have settled, I suggest will you be able to begin the process of joining the EU.

 

I should imagine (I may be wrong) that England and Wales will be significantly better off without Scotland. That is of course only my opinion, and not based on any deep understanding of the economics, but then neither, I suspect, is much of the argument for Scottish economic viability as an independent country.

 

What I am sure of is that as the cries for independence become shriller and more insistent, then the reaction of many/most Englishmen (whose connection with Scotland is rather becoming more tenuous) will be fair enough, off you jolly well go.

 

Much the same arguments apply to the future of Northern Ireland - although they will also have to persuade The Republic of Ireland to take them on, economically, politically and socially. Good Luck with that!

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

Stirling is bang in the centre of Scotland. No matter what happens the Jocks are extremely unlikely to let Stirling become separated from the rest of the Scotland.

I was equally confused for a while - I suspect that SunnyBoy 2018 was meaning sterling. Maybe the 'scotch' got the better of him...

[RuamRudy]

Just now, JAG said:

I very much doubt whether these sentiments (for that is what they are, sentiments) will be sufficient to overcome the hard realities of meeting the economic requirements for joining the EU.

 

As for the whole concept of independence, well, if the majority of Scots feel that the UK is no longer for them, and the advocates of independence manage to persuade them, and win a referendum on independence, then fair enough. Off you jolly well go! As an Englishman however, I think that you should make a clean break, particularly in terms of a currency ( you will have to accept that if you wish to continue to use the Pound Sterling then you will have no control over it). You will have to assume responsibility for funding all pensions and the like for your people, and there should be no funds transferred from England to make up any shortfalls. Sorting that out will no doubt take a couple of years, and only then, when all those matters have settled, I suggest will you be able to begin the process of joining the EU.

 

 

England will not be expected to make any payments; there will be obligations to be resolved between the residual UK and Scotland, but those will be worked out at the appropriate level.

[LennyW]

Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP do not talk for me nor for the majority of Scots who already voted to remain in the UK - simple. Now <deleted> yah wee bampot!

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, LennyW said:

Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP do not talk for me nor for the majority of Scots who already voted to remain in the UK - simple. Now <deleted> yah wee bampot!

Times change, promises turn out to be worthless, people realise that we are at the mercy of the decisions made by the country next door. It is way past time we got off our knees and took a stand for a future that is actually what Scots want, not what England wants.

[evadgib]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Times change, promises turn out to be worthless, people realise that we are at the mercy of the decisions made by the country next door. It is way past time we got off our knees and took a stand for a future that is actually what Scots want, not what England wants.

What's all this 'on your knees'? The tail has been wagging the dog since B-liar gave everyone except the ???????????????????????????? a Parliament 20 years ago & the ???????????????????????????? are getting fed up with it and have finally woken up as seen yesterday.

Edited December 14, 2019 by evadgib

[david555]

16 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Times change, promises turn out to be worthless, people realise that we are at the mercy of the decisions made by the country next door. It is way past time we got off our knees and took a stand for a future that is actually what Scots want, not what England wants.

Not only in Scotland …. but also in N Ireland something started ….Yeah … Boris won definitely … but seems to loose the United Kingdom  ….

https://www.euronews.com/2019/12/13/nationalists-win-big-in-northern-ireland-prompting-calls-for-border-poll

Northern Ireland elected more Irish nationalists to Britain's parliament than pro-British unionists, a first since the partition of Ireland in 1921.

Nationalists said the result paved the way towards a vote on whether there should be a united Ireland, as Prime Minister Boris Johnson won a crushing victory across the union.

 

"We are heading towards a border poll, I can't give you a definitive date, but we need to do the spade work now and prepare ourselves," Sinn Fein leader Mary Lou McDonald said.

Edited December 14, 2019 by david555

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

What's all this 'on your knees'? The tail has been wagging the dog since B-liar gave everyone except the ???????????????????????????? a Parliament 20 years ago & the ???????????????????????????? are getting fed up with it and have finally woken up as seen yesterday.

As I have said many times before, I have absolutely no desire to stand in the way off the aspirations of the English, but by the same token I don't want that my country is forced to take a path it doesn't want to take simply because we are smaller in number.

[Forethat]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

As I have said many times before, I have absolutely no desire to stand in the way off the aspirations of the English, but by the same token I don't want that my country is forced to take a path it doesn't want to take simply because we are smaller in number.

But you want to stay in the EU....? You sure are inconsistent in your arguments.

[evadgib]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

As I have said many times before, I have absolutely no desire to stand in the way off the aspirations of the English, but by the same token I don't want that my country is forced to take a path it doesn't want to take simply because we are smaller in number.

Unfortunately there's no other option RR. ???????????????????????????? was part of a single country that joined the ???????? as a member state in the 70s and no amount of jiggery-pokery will change the manner in which ???????? leaves the EU next year.

Edited December 14, 2019 by evadgib

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Unfortunately there's no other option RR. ???????????????????????????? was part of a single country that joined the ???????? as a member state in the 70s and no amount of jiggery-pokery will change the manner in which ???????? leaves the EU next year.

Oh sure - we are being dragged against our clearly expressed will - but once independent from the UK, the people of Scotland can consider whether they wish to rejoin as an independent country.

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, Forethat said:

But you want to stay in the EU....? You sure are inconsistent in your arguments.

In what way is my position inconsistent?