UK PM Johnson cannot keep Scotland in union against its will: Sturgeon

[Laughing Gravy]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But just like Brexit, the winning side was built on lies, whether it being 'the only way to remain in the EU is to remain in the UK' to telling pensioners that they would lose their pensions in the event of a Yes vote.

Will you admit that joining the EEC was built on many lies or shall we just pretend that didn't happen. Personally i never heard that one about pensions but I made my mind up about the EU in the 1980s and tend not to rely on politicians.

[cmarshall]

10 hours ago, Jip99 said:

The SNP is a bit of a joke really - 45% of the vote but 81% of the seats.

 

I don’t buy RR’s assertion that there are loads of Tories who want independence...... Boris has no appetite for another referendum so nationalists have one real choice.... SNP or bust.

 

SNP gets less than 32% of the electorate, Indyref1 polls 38% of the Scottish electorate.  for independence 
 

Makes Boris’ mandate look pretty strong.

That's the way your system works, first past the post or winner take all.  The Tories have a 56% share of the seats in Commons with only 44% of the vote.  Yes, it's an anti-democratic system, bad for the UK and bad for the US also.

[vogie]

23 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

That's the way your system works, first past the post or winner take all.  The Tories have a 56% share of the seats in Commons with only 44% of the vote.  Yes, it's an anti-democratic system, bad for the UK and bad for the US also.

But if we had gone with prop rep in the 2017 election UKIP would have acquired 6 million votes and would have had about 60 seats instead of their only 1. Can you imagine the outrage on here about the fault in the prop rep system, you cannot have it all your own way just because it is suiting you at the time. Did you say at the time that the system was undemocratic, I very much doubt it. 

The result may not be to your liking, but this is how we do things here, the same rules for everyone, sometimes it will be to your liking, sometimes not, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

[stevenl]

17 minutes ago, vogie said:

But if we had gone with prop rep in the 2017 election UKIP would have acquired 6 million votes and would have had about 60 seats instead of their only 1. Can you imagine the outrage on here about the fault in the prop rep system, you cannot have it all your own way just because it is suiting you at the time. Did you say at the time that the system was undemocratic, I very much doubt it. 

The result may not be to your liking, but this is how we do things here, the same rules for everyone, sometimes it will be to your liking, sometimes not, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

There is a reason for the growing campaign for proportional representation in the UK, despite the rejection some time ago: it is the more democratic way.

 

Don't presume things, I for one would have been happy with proportional representation at the previous elections, it would have exposed the racist underbelly in the UK, which is still there but again hidden.

[david555]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The best thing Bercow is not mthere the horrible little man who was biased and self centered. Why don't you invite him to your own parliament.

He was already in Dutch talk show.....he is very popular  .

About self centered .....if you dislike that ....what about comic duo Bojo & Nigel "blackadder"Farage...?

[Solinvictus]

22 hours ago, cmarshall said:

A lot of the blame for the disaster of the election falls squarely on Corbyn's shoulders.  He could have made a coalition government that would have thrown Johnson out, but because the new PM wouldn't be Corbyn, he refused Labour's support.  Then Corbyn, along with the SNP and Lib Dems, supported a new election, for which the best possible outcome would have been another hung parliament while the worst we have seen come to pass.  Would not have happened if Corbyn had agreed on, say, Caroline Lucas as the compromise PM.  But no, it had to be Corbyn himself and no one else even at the price of a large Tory majority.  Corbyn's policies are okay, but his leadership is a complete and utter failure.  Blair would never have made such mistakes, but then he might have led the UK into another war.

 

And after Scotland leaves Labour may never win another election.

Thank you. Will be interesting for sure.

[RuamRudy]

13 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

SNP gets less than 32% of the electorate, Indyref1 polls 38% of the Scottish electorate.  for independence 
 

Makes Boris’ mandate look pretty strong.

38% in Scotland for indy and 37% across the whole of the UK for Brexit... 

[Nigel Garvie]

13 minutes ago, Solinvictus said:

  22 hours ago, cmarshall said:

A lot of the blame for the disaster of the election falls squarely on Corbyn's shoulders.  He could have made a coalition government that would have thrown Johnson out, but because the new PM wouldn't be Corbyn, he refused Labour's support.  Then Corbyn, along with the SNP and Lib Dems, supported a new election, for which the best possible outcome would have been another hung parliament while the worst we have seen come to pass.  Would not have happened if Corbyn had agreed on, say, Caroline Lucas as the compromise PM.  But no, it had to be Corbyn himself and no one else even at the price of a large Tory majority.  Corbyn's policies are okay, but his leadership is a complete and utter failure.  Blair would never have made such mistakes, but then he might have led the UK into another war.

 

And after Scotland leaves Labour may never win another election.

Well said that man. Labour are licking their entirely self inflicted wounds. However it was Swinson that made the terrible error of going for an election. Hubris abounds. Tactical voting failed because the two main parties that needed to agree on this, Labour and LD, thought promises would work instead. Hubris abounds. 

 

What is hard to believe is that the LP are still so far up their own posteriors, that even after this massive defeat they are lining up behind Rebecca LB, a Corbyn clone. Why not try the same recipe again when it has only failed 3 times before. 

[Nigel Garvie]

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

There is a reason for the growing campaign for proportional representation in the UK, despite the rejection some time ago: it is the more democratic way.

 

Don't presume things, I for one would have been happy with proportional representation at the previous elections, it would have exposed the racist underbelly in the UK, which is still there but again hidden.

Indeed. I am another who feels that PR is right in principle..full stop. Vogie correctly says this would have given (the right wing nutters of) UKIP plenty of seats. Many countries in Europe have their lunatic extreme parties, they live with them, it may act as an escape valve. That is the price you have to pay for real democracy, FPTP no longer cuts the mustard.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Well said that man. Labour are licking their entirely self inflicted wounds. However it was Swinson that made the terrible error of going for an election. Hubris abounds. Tactical voting failed because the two main parties that needed to agree on this, Labour and LD, thought promises would work instead. Hubris abounds. 

 

What is hard to believe is that the LP are still so far up their own posteriors, that even after this massive defeat they are lining up behind Rebecca LB, a Corbyn clone. Why not try the same recipe again when it has only failed 3 times before. 

"What is hard to believe is that the LP are still so far up their own posteriors, that even after this massive defeat they are lining up behind Rebecca LB, a Corbyn clone. Why not try the same recipe again when it has only failed 3 times before."

 

I totally agree, this is one reason why Corbyn hasn't fallen on his sword along with the rest of the useless cabinet, Corbyn is hanging on to find a suitable successor to run the party in the guise of Corbynism again. I was impressed in what Alan Johnson had to say about this.

 

 

[Nigel Garvie]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

"What is hard to believe is that the LP are still so far up their own posteriors, that even after this massive defeat they are lining up behind Rebecca LB, a Corbyn clone. Why not try the same recipe again when it has only failed 3 times before."

 

I totally agree, this is one reason why Corbyn hasn't fallen on his sword along with the rest of the useless cabinet, Corbyn is hanging on to find a suitable successor to run the party in the guise of Corbynism again. I was impressed in what Alan Johnson had to say about this.

 

 

Yes he impressed me as well. A real down to earth Union man who could have saved the LP years of embarrassment. 

[Henryford]

Most of Scotlands' trade is with England not the EUSSR. I would love to see them leave then face rejoining  the EUSSR with the Euro and no English Barnett bail outs. Just build the wall and let them get on with it.

 

BTW the 'will" of Scotland in 2014 was to stay in the Union. Ony 1.2 million Scots voted SNP and even that doesn't mean they want to leave.

[david555]

15 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Most of Scotlands' trade is with England not the EUSSR. I would love to see them leave then face rejoining  the EUSSR with the Euro and no English Barnett bail outs. Just build the wall and let them get on with it.

 

BTW the 'will" of Scotland in 2014 was to stay in the Union. Ony 1.2 million Scots voted SNP and even that doesn't mean they want to leave.

The Brexit was and is still the changing factor for their independence wish ...

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Henryford said:

Most of Scotlands' trade is with England not the EUSSR. I would love to see them leave then face rejoining  the EUSSR with the Euro and no English Barnett bail outs. Just build the wall and let them get on with it.

 

BTW the 'will" of Scotland in 2014 was to stay in the Union. Ony 1.2 million Scots voted SNP and even that doesn't mean they want to leave.

What of trade from England going north? Would you willingly see those business dependent upon it go to the wall to satisfy your bruised ego? 

[Laughing Gravy]

4 hours ago, david555 said:

He was already in Dutch talk show.....he is very popular  .

About self centered .....if you dislike that ....what about comic duo Bojo & Nigel "blackadder"Farage...?

He was leader of the house, supposedly biased and be a 'referee' to the house. being self centered is hardly a prerequisite to holding the post.

 

So he is popular with the Dutch! By all means keep him, as he is a twit and should be sent to the courts for his bullying behaviour of others and his impartiality, that he didn't portray in his position. Clearly has little man syndrome.

 

I imagine you find that awful and moronic punchline "order" to be funny. No wonder we have different sense of humours.

[RuamRudy]

Good news for those who are hung up on the "once in a generation" distraction. It turns out that guidance is available - and from no less a source than the UK government itself. 

 

As nobody can really define what "once in a generation" actually is, surely it makes sense to look for a precedent? I read this morning that The Northern Ireland Act 1998 defines the minimum period which has to pass between border polls for the reunification of Ireland - and it's 7 years. 

 

Apologies for the crappy formatting but you can see the NI Act here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/47/contents

 

Schedule 1 does, indeed, hold the key to the conundrum. 

 

 

[cmarshall]

2 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Indeed. I am another who feels that PR is right in principle..full stop. Vogie correctly says this would have given (the right wing nutters of) UKIP plenty of seats. Many countries in Europe have their lunatic extreme parties, they live with them, it may act as an escape valve. That is the price you have to pay for real democracy, FPTP no longer cuts the mustard.

The problem with the British is that they think that a coalition government is some kind of abnormality, i.e. a "hung" parliament instead of the normal course of action in a parliamentary democracy.  So, neither Corbyn nor Johnson is willing to build consensus.

 

Labour needs to make plans to rebuild their party based on blaming the Tories for the upcoming economic disaster and dissolution of the union.  They need a talented politician like Mitterand who built the French socialist party up from ruin or Blair, possibly minus the portion of his brain responsible for the lapdog behavior.

 

At all costs Corbyn should be prevented from naming his successor.  He should have resigned immediately.  Since he didn't, they should toss him out right away.

[NanLaew]

On 12/16/2019 at 7:17 AM, Rookiescot said:

Upon independence those pensioners would still be paid by Westminster. Thats because they paid into the coffers of Westminster during their working careers.

I think that is similar to why the UK does need to pay for their EU 'divorce'. They, as then members of the EU, agreed to pay their EU long-term budget obligations, the MMF (Multiannual Financial Framework) which are based on a 7-year budget. The new EU budget applies from 2021 to 2027. The UK legally owes the EU the MFF budget balance unpaid for the previous 2014-2020 budget since the date they triggered Article 50.

 

On 12/16/2019 at 7:21 AM, cmarshall said:

Wouldn't that depend on whatever agreement is reached between Scotland and the rump UK?  Is the Fleet still berthed at Scapa Flow?  Can the Scots get rent out of that?

No, but the Trident deterrents are still berthed at Faslane and the SNP want them gone.

[nkg]

15 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Not sure you British Nationalists are thinking this through.

 

Johnson (who is generally despised in Scotland) is going to tell Scotland NO you are not allowed to leave?

 

Pretty much the greatest recruitment drive the SNP could ever hope for.

You guys only have one hope. Give the section 30 and pray. 

I would wish you luck but...... meh.

 

I see we have another 5 years of impotent rage to come from you.

[david555]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

He was leader of the house, supposedly biased and be a 'referee' to the house. being self centered is hardly a prerequisite to holding the post.

 

So he is popular with the Dutch! By all means keep him, as he is a twit and should be sent to the courts for his bullying behaviour of others and his impartiality, that he didn't portray in his position. Clearly has little man syndrome.

 

I imagine you find that awful and moronic punchline "order" to be funny. No wonder we have different sense of humours.

powerless frustration abounds...….is the main line of talks in your reply ….lol....some little persons in size where great in history  ...e.g. Napoleon the English's headache , better than be "a big lantern with a smallish lightbulb inside "   5555

 

Not only that "order" thing  ….. here some marvelous example how he make his accuser ultimate ridiculous in a " very polite deadly reply " ….(the sticker on his car incident )

 

https://youtu.be/sZzExCg5-Xo

 

 

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Good news for those who are hung up on the "once in a generation" distraction. It turns out that guidance is available - and from no less a source than the UK government itself. 

 

As nobody can really define what "once in a generation" actually is, surely it makes sense to look for a precedent? I read this morning that The Northern Ireland Act 1998 defines the minimum period which has to pass between border polls for the reunification of Ireland - and it's 7 years. 

 

Apologies for the crappy formatting but you can see the NI Act here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/47/contents

 

Schedule 1 does, indeed, hold the key to the conundrum. 

 

 

RR what legal document did the once in a generation appear.

[Laughing Gravy]

26 minutes ago, david555 said:

powerless frustration abounds...….is the main line of talks in your reply ….lol....some little persons in size where great in history  ...e.g. Napoleon the English's headache , better than be "a big lantern with a smallish lightbulb inside "   5555

 

Not only that "order" thing  ….. here some marvelous example how he make his accuser ultimate ridiculous in a " very polite deadly reply " ….(the sticker on his car incident )

 

https://youtu.be/sZzExCg5-Xo

 

 

You obviously are speaking a different language. The guy is a first  class K jockey. He was lucky nobody gave him a slap but he is very short and would probably went to his wife who would protect him, although he likes to bully others

 

You would have been better using Tom thumb as your analogy. Napoleon please. Unless your history books say differently Napoleon was defeated by the British and ended up in exile on a crappy little island.

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

RR what legal document did the once in a generation appear.

It didn't - it was a throwaway line that is being trumpeted out of desperation by those who have nothing more concrete to deny the democratic will of the people.

 

But regardless of its provenance, we have an unambiguous, legal precedence that contextualises how much time would pass between such plebiscites. 

[david555]

5 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You obviously are speaking a different language. The guy is a first  class K jockey. He was lucky nobody gave him a slap but he is very short and would probably went to his wife who would protect him, although he likes to bully others

 

You would have been better using Tom thumb as your analogy. Napoleon please. Unless your history books say differently Napoleon was defeated by the British and ended up in exile on a crappy little island.

Totally true, defeated just very narrow, as Prussian Cavalry from Blucher came just very narrow in time to save your asses (check history of the Battle of Waterloo ) , as others you would drive now on the right hand side , would have a written constitution an not behaving like now 

 

In Europe we still have the highest respect for what he besides war achieved , taking us out of the dark middle ages giving the" code Napoleon" …. e.g. basis of present  most Europeans legislation 

 

It was a all against one type war ….or not ?

[Laughing Gravy]

3 minutes ago, david555 said:

taking us out of the dark middle ages giving the" code Napoleon" …. e.g. basis of present  most Europeans legislation 

and into the EU. ????????

What happened with the world wars. Anyway it doesn't matter you have made me chuckle.

[david555]

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

and into the EU. ????????

And  away from British influence...????????

[Laughing Gravy]

50 minutes ago, david555 said:

And  away from British influence...????????

I know so continued to be ruled by the Germans. You must love it????

[FritsSikkink]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 7:11 AM, mercman24 said:

Scotland is as bad as Greece, bancrupt, with a debt of £2500 per head, only being kept afloat by Westminster, if they did get independance the EU would not have them back, her thinking is in the Corbyn league, she is on an ego trip. refer back to her recent tv interview, for the facts, she evaded all the pertinent questions

You can't afford to lose Scotland who is paying your bills, that is the only reason , they won't allow a new referendum;

[RuamRudy]

9 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

You can't afford to lose Scotland who is paying your bills, that is the only reason , they won't allow a new referendum;

Apparently this is known as the union dividend...

 

Another example is how share of UK debt is allocated. Who would have thought that Scotland, with a little over 8% of the population, would account for 21% of the UK's deficit? Good god - how can we ever contemplate independence if our finances are so precarious?

 

We should take a leaf out of the book of those canny English - 84% of the population but responsible for only 45% of the deficit? In fact, if you look at below, Scotland, Wales & N Ireland combined make up around 16% of the UK population but account for 55% of the UK's deficit. What is going on? Can the English really be as canny as I suggested? Why keep holding on to these obvious basket cases? 

 

 

[stevenl]

On 12/16/2019 at 9:50 PM, stevenl said:

Yes, those are valid reasons. As said, there are differences but they are comparable.

Except for the first of these differences none explain why the nation's left should have a voice in the will of the nation leaving. They are merely practical issues, culture an emotional one. But of course this whole issue is emotional in stead of rational, look at the argumentation. You're the first to come with any sort of rationale against.

@ melvinmelvin

 

I'm surprised you did not answer. We don't always agree but you do give arguments for your opinions, so I would be interested in your opinion on my reply.

Of course you don't have to answer. Unless I missed it?