Is it just wishful thinking or deluding themselves

[Kerryd]

This morning, while looking up some info for another post, I came across some info about the tourism industry. It noted that of the 26 million tourist arrivals in 2013, NGO groups "estimated" that 11 million were "male sex tourists". No idea on who made that estimate or how they came to that conclusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Thailand#Sex_tourism

However, it also noted the Thailand's first female Tourism Minister pledged (back in 2014) to get "eradicate" the sex industry. She named Pattaya as her "pilot project".
(She was replaced as Tourism Minister in 2017.)

Then in 2017, non other than General Prime Minister Prayut announced that he was going to order the police to "dismantle Pattaya's sex industry.".

Oh wait. I dug into the references for the number quoted in the wiki article. It came from a research paper by a woman (surprise, surprise) who was basing her paper on the "research" she did by reading 4 books (2 of which were Private Dancer and The Pole Dancer) and some other stuff.
https://www.capstoneediting.com.au/uploads/files/Prostitution in Thailand.pdf

In her paper, she references the number of tourists that had arrived from the UK, USA and Australia and, referencing 2 other sources, notes that "60%" of those arrivals were male (shock, just over half were men ?!?!?) and then states "70% of whom are thought by NGOs to come explicitly to engage in prostitution" !

Wow. "thought" by "NGOs". There's a conclusive stat ! I "thought" I saw a foreigner in Pattaya, that must mean he's only here for sex tourism. In fact, it was ONE "NGO" and one article in a magazine that a guy wrote in 2005.

I checked her references and one of them (where the "stats" supposedly came from) doesn't exist anymore. The NGO is there - a Christian "give us your money and we'll pray that things get better" group by the looks of it. https://world-outreach.com/gb/pray/
I'm sure they have no "agenda" when they "think up" stats about stuff. With a lot of those groups that depend on donations, the more tear-jerking the tale, the more donations that flow in.
The other reference she used was an article written in 2005 for "Prospect magazine" (https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/learningthethaisextrade

The author tried really hard to justify that all the "extra" males coming to Thailand (especially those from "rich" countries) must be here for sex and when he couldn't make the numbers work, he'd just "assume" the result.
(Somehow the guy supposedly had very accurate stats from 2003 on how many Brits had visited Thailand, how many were male/female, how many were children and how many were here for "business".)
Yet throughout his article, he never seems to even contemplate that many of those "extra" men coming here might be married to a Thai spouse.

In his mind, if you are a male from a "rich" country and come to Thailand alone (or with friends), unless you state that "business" is your purpose then you must be a sex tourist. Because no one would ever come here for any other reason, right ? 


What's all that have to do with the price of beer in a beer bar ? 

Just goes to show that people have been trying to shut down the "male" tourist industry in Thailand for decades and it's still here. Even the PM hasn't been able to stop it 3 years after announcing he was giving orders for it to be "dismantled".

I'm sure that TAT has been focusing it's ad campaigns in places like India and China, almost to the exclusion of places like Australia, the UK, USA and the EU/Scandinavia in a deliberate effort to reduce the number of "single males" arriving from those areas, in the expectation that will cause the "sex trade" to disappear.
(I'm thinking that, more than anything, is why there are fewer and fewer "expat" tourists on the streets and in the bars than there used to be 10-20 years ago.)

With little or no regard to the fact that most of the "sex trade" is domestic. (The "domestic" side of it isn't as flamboyant as the side that targets foreigners.)

Not to mention that it won't solve the problem of all those girls in all those villages with grade 8 educations and no job prospects (whether or not they've been knocked up by their high school sweetheart and are trying to raise his kid(s) alone).

Unless the idea is to drive more of them into the "domestic" sex trade so they won't have to deal with those "dirty farangs who don't shower". Or maybe so more of them are available to take "overseas" employment (as models or domestic help of course).

Also consider that for decades, different groups have tried to get rid of all the businesses on the water side of Walking Street and failed. 
It's not likely those places are going anywhere soon, or changing into different kinds of businesses.

It will take awhile for things to start looking "normal" again (barring any new outbreaks of the virus), but eventually places will get back to the way things were more or less. 

[jacko45k]

3 hours ago, Oldie said:

Did I forget a reason? Sure you can meet friends. But do you really need a noisy bar for this? 

Maybe the Beach..... oh hang on a minute.

[Leaver]

7 hours ago, BritManToo said:

That's certainly the case in Vietnam and Cambodia where beer is sold at 50c-$1 a small bottle in many bars & restaurants.

One expat bar in Da Nang I frequented sold beer at $1/bottle normal price and buy one, get one free early evenings. They were still making a profit on the BOGOF offer.

Possible in Vietnam, because Vietnamese families own the premises.  Near impossible to make a profit in Thailand when a greedy Thai landlord is taking the bulk of the profits, and if he isn't now, he will do, come next lease renewal.  

[HashBrownHarry]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

Possible in Vietnam, because Vietnamese families own the premises.  Near impossible to make a profit in Thailand when a greedy Thai landlord is taking the bulk of the profits, and if he isn't now, he will do, come next lease renewal.  

How do you know who owns these Vietnamese own the premises, just guessing?

 

You know farang can own premises's in Thailand, right? Infact many do ( so i'm told ).

[Ron jeremy]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I made my friends at the bar. On line is too easy to fake it.

I never had a barbeer girl ask me for a drink. Try a better class of barbeer.

Never had a gal ask you for a drink?.. U must be the elephant man! 

Tell us where these better class of beer bars are.

were waiting.

[HashBrownHarry]

7 hours ago, Kerryd said:

This morning, while looking up some info for another post, I came across some info about the tourism industry. It noted that of the 26 million tourist arrivals in 2013, NGO groups "estimated" that 11 million were "male sex tourists". No idea on who made that estimate or how they came to that conclusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Thailand#Sex_tourism

However, it also noted the Thailand's first female Tourism Minister pledged (back in 2014) to get "eradicate" the sex industry. She named Pattaya as her "pilot project".
(She was replaced as Tourism Minister in 2017.)

Then in 2017, non other than General Prime Minister Prayut announced that he was going to order the police to "dismantle Pattaya's sex industry.".

Oh wait. I dug into the references for the number quoted in the wiki article. It came from a research paper by a woman (surprise, surprise) who was basing her paper on the "research" she did by reading 4 books (2 of which were Private Dancer and The Pole Dancer) and some other stuff.
https://www.capstoneediting.com.au/uploads/files/Prostitution in Thailand.pdf

In her paper, she references the number of tourists that had arrived from the UK, USA and Australia and, referencing 2 other sources, notes that "60%" of those arrivals were male (shock, just over half were men ?!?!?) and then states "70% of whom are thought by NGOs to come explicitly to engage in prostitution" !

Wow. "thought" by "NGOs". There's a conclusive stat ! I "thought" I saw a foreigner in Pattaya, that must mean he's only here for sex tourism. In fact, it was ONE "NGO" and one article in a magazine that a guy wrote in 2005.

I checked her references and one of them (where the "stats" supposedly came from) doesn't exist anymore. The NGO is there - a Christian "give us your money and we'll pray that things get better" group by the looks of it. https://world-outreach.com/gb/pray/
I'm sure they have no "agenda" when they "think up" stats about stuff. With a lot of those groups that depend on donations, the more tear-jerking the tale, the more donations that flow in.
The other reference she used was an article written in 2005 for "Prospect magazine" (https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/learningthethaisextrade

The author tried really hard to justify that all the "extra" males coming to Thailand (especially those from "rich" countries) must be here for sex and when he couldn't make the numbers work, he'd just "assume" the result.
(Somehow the guy supposedly had very accurate stats from 2003 on how many Brits had visited Thailand, how many were male/female, how many were children and how many were here for "business".)
Yet throughout his article, he never seems to even contemplate that many of those "extra" men coming here might be married to a Thai spouse.

In his mind, if you are a male from a "rich" country and come to Thailand alone (or with friends), unless you state that "business" is your purpose then you must be a sex tourist. Because no one would ever come here for any other reason, right ? 


What's all that have to do with the price of beer in a beer bar ? 

Just goes to show that people have been trying to shut down the "male" tourist industry in Thailand for decades and it's still here. Even the PM hasn't been able to stop it 3 years after announcing he was giving orders for it to be "dismantled".

I'm sure that TAT has been focusing it's ad campaigns in places like India and China, almost to the exclusion of places like Australia, the UK, USA and the EU/Scandinavia in a deliberate effort to reduce the number of "single males" arriving from those areas, in the expectation that will cause the "sex trade" to disappear.
(I'm thinking that, more than anything, is why there are fewer and fewer "expat" tourists on the streets and in the bars than there used to be 10-20 years ago.)

With little or no regard to the fact that most of the "sex trade" is domestic. (The "domestic" side of it isn't as flamboyant as the side that targets foreigners.)

Not to mention that it won't solve the problem of all those girls in all those villages with grade 8 educations and no job prospects (whether or not they've been knocked up by their high school sweetheart and are trying to raise his kid(s) alone).

Unless the idea is to drive more of them into the "domestic" sex trade so they won't have to deal with those "dirty farangs who don't shower". Or maybe so more of them are available to take "overseas" employment (as models or domestic help of course).

Also consider that for decades, different groups have tried to get rid of all the businesses on the water side of Walking Street and failed. 
It's not likely those places are going anywhere soon, or changing into different kinds of businesses.

It will take awhile for things to start looking "normal" again (barring any new outbreaks of the virus), but eventually places will get back to the way things were more or less. 

I could n't be bother reading all that ( coz most of it's irrelevant and bores me ) but i do agree with your last paragraph ( of 18 total ) that things in Pattaya will eventually go back to the way things were ( whether you like it or not ).

[Leaver]

1 hour ago, HashBrownHarry said:

How do you know who owns these Vietnamese own the premises, just guessing?

 

You know farang can own premises's in Thailand, right? Infact many do ( so i'm told ).

Obviously, you have never been to Vietnam. 

 

The local bars are Vietnamese owned, and friendly to foreigners.  Not like in Thailand. 

 

Foreigners own bars in Vietnam also, but most are paying rent, hence, 30 baht beers instead of 20 baht beers for a a Vietnamese family owned premises and businesses. (VND to Baht equivalent)

 

That's not a typo.  Those are the price.  

[HashBrownHarry]

9 hours ago, Leaver said:

Obviously, you have never been to Vietnam. 

 

The local bars are Vietnamese owned, and friendly to foreigners.  Not like in Thailand. 

 

Foreigners own bars in Vietnam also, but most are paying rent, hence, 30 baht beers instead of 20 baht beers for a a Vietnamese family owned premises and businesses. (VND to Baht equivalent)

 

That's not a typo.  Those are the price.  

I worked in Vietnam for 3 year, in VT, i'm familiar with it thanks.

[PatOngo]

Judging by the sheer volume of beer bars in Pattaya, one could be deluded into thinking it was a lucrative growth industry! ????

 

 

[jacko45k]

7 minutes ago, PatOngo said:

Judging by the sheer volume of beer bars in Pattaya, one could be deluded into thinking it was a lucrative growth industry! ????

 

 

It is a copy-cat environment, open one and somebody else will too next door. Likely we are in the close one, copy phase now. 

[PingRoundTheWorld]

I probably already had Covid-19 back in February or March (had "the flu" twice and symptoms match), but even if I didn't I wouldn't be scared or worried about it because I am not in a risk group. The MINUTE bars and clubs are open I'd be there. You can sit home all you like.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

I probably already had Covid-19 back in February or March (had "the flu" twice and symptoms match), but even if I didn't I wouldn't be scared or worried about it because I am not in a risk group. The MINUTE bars and clubs are open I'd be there. You can sit home all you like.

"Not in the risk group"..................????

[banglay]

5 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

I probably already had Covid-19 back in February or March (had "the flu" twice and symptoms match), but even if I didn't I wouldn't be scared or worried about it because I am not in a risk group. The MINUTE bars and clubs are open I'd be there. You can sit home all you like.

Quote :-  "I wouldn't be scared or worried about it because I am not in a risk group" So is your theory that "Ladyboys" are immune..   heheheheh  

[Rimmer]

Troll post and some replies removed

[thaibeachlovers]

22 hours ago, Oldie said:

Never  "Hello sexy man. Where you come from? How long you stay? You pay drink for me?"  ??? 

That's only 3/4 true. Never asked me for a drink. Always asked where I came from, where I stay. Never had one ask me to buy her a drink. Always up to me.

[jacko45k]

33 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's only 3/4 true. Never asked me for a drink. Always asked where I came from, where I stay. Never had one ask me to buy her a drink. Always up to me.

How about the owner or big fat cashier coming over and asking on behalf of the one sat adjacent? I mean, I get asked to buy drinks so often I wonder if we talk of the same town!

[kinyara]

14 hours ago, Leaver said:

Obviously, you have never been to Vietnam. 

 

The local bars are Vietnamese owned, and friendly to foreigners.  Not like in Thailand. 

 

I've done a lot of travel around Thailand in the last 3 years and found local bars to be consistently welcoming and friendly, it's part of the reason I enjoy Thailand. Oversaturated commercially geared and perhaps jaded tourist resorts like Pattaya and Phuket aren't a great comparison to elsewhere in the country. I realise many expats/tourists base their entire Thailand experience on 1 square mile of Pattaya, they are missing out if that's the case. 

 

That said one of my favourite regular successfull Pattaya bars is locally owned, foreigner friendly, ( they are the main custom) , excellent service and good pricing, so I don't agree with your racial stereotyping. 

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

How about the owner or big fat cashier coming over and asking on behalf of the one sat adjacent? I mean, I get asked to buy drinks so often I wonder if we talk of the same town!

Have to agree. I dont know how anyone can spend even a short time visiting bars not get asked to buy a drink.

 

Maybe they buy before they are asked.

[Traubert]

I can almost hear the small notes rustling in your pockets as you count them............????

[BigStar]

4 hours ago, Sujo said:

Have to agree. I dont know how anyone can spend even a short time visiting bars not get asked to buy a drink.

 

Maybe they buy before they are asked.

I agree w/ @thaibeachlovers. Even if you may look like a stupid tourist, if you give off an indifferent vibe, and when approached for conversation you tell them you'd prefer to be alone, then you won't be asked to buy a drink. If you let them, or invite them to, sit with you while you try to extort free listening to your incomprehensible twaddle or even free groping, then you should be asked to buy a drink and will be.

 

Of course, being ignored in one of these venues then leads to the opposite whinge here of being ignored with its own cacophony of squawks, bad reviews of particular bars, recitations of past grievances at HomePro, feelings of being “unloved,” general Thai bashing, and of course—dire prophecies. So in more popular bars, the girls are told to approach the customers even if they really don't want to for understandable reasons.

 

I find Thais friendly enough in general, even in the tourist-shocked resort Pattaya, including the Thais in the bars. 

 

[Leaver]

12 hours ago, HashBrownHarry said:

I worked in Vietnam for 3 year, in VT, i'm familiar with it thanks.

VT is a nice place.  Why did you leave?

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, BigStar said:

So in more popular bars, the girls are told to approach the customers even if they really don't want to for understandable reasons.

Disagree, I've always found it a pretty safe bet that the ones that will approach you, have already decided to go home with you if asked.

Come to think of it, that worked in the UK as well. 

[Leaver]

8 hours ago, kinyara said:

I've done a lot of travel around Thailand in the last 3 years and found local bars to be consistently welcoming and friendly, it's part of the reason I enjoy Thailand. Oversaturated commercially geared and perhaps jaded tourist resorts like Pattaya and Phuket aren't a great comparison to elsewhere in the country. I realise many expats/tourists base their entire Thailand experience on 1 square mile of Pattaya, they are missing out if that's the case. 

 

That said one of my favourite regular successfull Pattaya bars is locally owned, foreigner friendly, ( they are the main custom) , excellent service and good pricing, so I don't agree with your racial stereotyping. 

Good post.

 

I also have traveled extensively around Thailand, and South East Asia, for that matter. 

 

Guys I have met who have only been to some southern Thai tourist destinations, and their partner's village in Issan, do not have much credibility with me, when discussing travel in the region, and yes, there are many like that. 

 

Ask, 'Where have you been in Thailand?"  Answer, "Pattaya and Udon Thani" for example.  They have been nowhere else, and no other country in South East Asia, yet sing the praises of Thailand. 

 

I am not talking about bars set up by Thai's to cater for foreigners.  I am talking about bars set up by Thai's, catering for Thai's. 

 

Try walking into a Thai karaoke bar with young drunk Thai guys, and Lao and Cambodian "hostesses" anywhere in Thailand and let me know how friendly you found the visit.  That animosity does not exist in Vietnam, in any bars.  Even the young drunk Vietnam guys invite you to their table. 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Leaver

[bwpage3]

The longer this drags on, the chances that tourists find other places to go, will increase.

 

Thailand is miraculously dreaming things will all return to normal at some point.

 

What if it doesn't?

 

What if the tourists never come back in numbers or it takes so long 90% of the businesses go under?

 

Then what?

[BigStar]

3 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

The longer this drags on, the chances that tourists find other places to go, will increase.

Nah, they've already left, Pattaya's been pronounced dead yearly for more than a decade. Goose killed, last nail in coffin driven, Big Spenders already left for the paradise of Cambodia where they're loved not for money but just for being their lovable selves. Chinese & Indians spend nothing, Thais have nothing to spend. TAT: TVF doesn't recognize domestic tourism. Condos are all vacant as the few owners all jumped off balconies or headed for the exits.

 

3 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

Thailand is miraculously dreaming things will all return to normal at some point.

Or, maybe you're miraculously dreaming that things won't return to normal at some point.

 

3 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

What if it doesn't?

Then it doesn't. Or what if it does? It does. We done?

 

3 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

What if the tourists never come back in numbers or it takes so long 90% of the businesses go under?

 

Then what?

What if we're miraculously dreaming it will be only 90%? It's gon' be no less than 99%, man. When we quaff a few Changs, maybe toke some good weed, and then kick back at the ol' keyboard to issue another major flatulent prognostication, we gotta go for them BIG numbers.

 

Well, you see, then it all goes back to jungle. Here ya go: binge on this list of Abandoned City movies. Chernobyl, Escape From New York, and I Am Legend are pretty good. Me, I picture myself then as the besieged Charlton Heston in The Ωmega Man, fighting The Family, "a savage luddite death cult" formed from remaining TVF doomsters throwing rocks from the rubble as I exit my fortified penthouse.

Edited May 9, 2020 by BigStar

[HashBrownHarry]

16 hours ago, Leaver said:

VT is a nice place.  Why did you leave?

End of contract.

 

Agreed, i left VT kicking and screaming!!

 

[Leaver]

On 5/10/2020 at 3:47 PM, HashBrownHarry said:

End of contract.

 

Agreed, i left VT kicking and screaming!!

 

You may end up back there.  

 

Vietnam was becoming very popular before the virus, probably even more popular after the virus.  

[Leaver]

On 5/10/2020 at 12:10 AM, bwpage3 said:

The longer this drags on, the chances that tourists find other places to go, will increase.

 

Thailand is miraculously dreaming things will all return to normal at some point.

 

What if it doesn't?

 

What if the tourists never come back in numbers or it takes so long 90% of the businesses go under?

 

Then what?

"Then" you may have to decide if you would still like to continue to live here, or to holiday here.  

[HashBrownHarry]

On 5/9/2020 at 9:10 PM, bwpage3 said:

The longer this drags on, the chances that tourists find other places to go, will increase.

 

Thailand is miraculously dreaming things will all return to normal at some point.

 

What if it doesn't?

 

What if the tourists never come back in numbers or it takes so long 90% of the businesses go under?

 

Then what?

Sentence #4 - superb, peace and quiet, should see prices of everything drop in, what were, tourist spots.

[Leaver]

11 hours ago, HashBrownHarry said:

Sentence #4 - superb, peace and quiet, should see prices of everything drop in, what were, tourist spots.

Maybe also see no where open where you think the prices will drop.

 

We could all end up eating rice 24/7, with nothing else on offer.  

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Leaver