Felling of British slave trader statue heats up simmering debate

[Kadilo]

William Gladstone: University of Liverpool to rename building over slavery links https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-52990464
 

Another development

[NanLaew]

On 6/8/2020 at 7:31 PM, Andrew65 said:

A bit to do with a few months of lockdown also??!!

This.

 

A few days back on Sky TV (UK) a shot of a crowd of protesters in the UK included a white woman, shouting 'I can't breath' between swigs from a large can of beer.

 

Party on.

[elliss]

20 hours ago, Kadilo said:

Ain’t gonna happen anytime soon. 
 

December is my guess. Especially if our lot keep dicking around. 
Did you see the sham this evening. Still talking about 2m when the industry says it will potentially cost a million jobs in the leisure industry and meanwhile in Oxford at the same time ........

 

     Thailand and UK , have one thing in common .

      Both counties , are well and truly , fkd .

 

       Ps , one Country is controlled by a military junta ,

      the other is controlled by a democratically , elected Government .

         The best of both evils ..

       

 

     

      

Edited June 10, 2020 by elliss

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, DrTuner said:

Interesting, I didn't notice Brazil was a main buyer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

 

Makes sense now that I think of it though. So, how come Brazil isn't heaving with protest against racism? Or is it? The white people are gone?

Portuguese. Mostly mixed now. Some amazing lookers.

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, moe666 said:

Actually the arabs had there on trade going to the east coast of africa, the local population in west africa supplied slaves to the englis and the US. It is figured that Africa had a population of around 60million people by the time slavery ceased it had a population of around 30 million. Half to the east coast and half to the west coast. Information from a very good history professor many years ago

That just sounds so wrong. Sorry Prof.

[metisdead]

Off topic deflection posts and the replies have been removed. 

[Andrew65]

15 hours ago, NanLaew said:

This.

 

A few days back on Sky TV (UK) a shot of a crowd of protesters in the UK included a white woman, shouting 'I can't breath' between swigs from a large can of beer.

 

Party on.

Well it is the UK!????

The latest rumour is that beer gardens will be allowed to open on July 4th.

[ravip]

Dick Whittington and His Cat must be turning in their graves.

RIP

[herfiehandbag]

Fundamentally what happened in Bristol, and with Churchill's statue, was nothing to do with what happened in Minneapolis and the subsequent reactions to years of effective racial and economic discrimination in the United States.

Bristol has a strong "tradition" of "community leaders", largely self selecting and self appointed, who wish to expand their power and funding. Claims for "compensation for slavery", to be paid and administered by the community groups which they run, are a long standing demand by these people.

 It is unfortunate but true, that the communities which they "represent" are dominated by criminal gangs, and these "community lealders", if not allied with are certainly tolerant of them (the criminal gangs). You may remember the violent campaign to stop Tesco opening a store on the Gloucester Road. Billed as a movement to protect the community from the deprecations of capitalism, it had a much more prosaic cause - Tesco refused to pay protection money! The police (Avon and Somerset Constabulary) were ultimately embarrassed into abandoning their cozy de facto truce with "the community" and taking action.

 

The destruction of Colston's statue, by gangs who have no connection whatsoever with slavery, save that of pigmentation, is nothing to do with democracy ( Bristol has a long history of elected left wing local governments), they could have removed that statue if they wanted to at virtually any time in the last thirty years. It has everything to do with these self appointed "community leaders" making their mark". They wish to cement their control of "their people" without the inconvenient, counterproductive and very likely non achievable process of actually winning a democratic mandate. If it is the wish of the people of Bristol, expressed through their elected representatives, that the statue of (in my opinion) the deeply flawed and despicable character that was Colston be removed then fine; not torn down by a mob inspired by an equally  flawed "reinterpretation" of history.

 

And the police? Avon and Somerset Constabulary - need I say more?

 

As for defacing Churchill's statue - the irony is that were it not for the stand against fascism, Nazism and racism by the generation which he led, they would not be living in a country which allows their protests.

 

Once again, if it is the wish of the people of the UK, expressed through their elected representatives, that the statue of Sir Winston Churchill be removed, so be it. I think we all know that it isn't.

Edited June 11, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, ravip said:

Dick Whittington and His Cat must be turning in their graves.

RIP

The Cat is alright ????

[Bruno123]

18 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Fundamentally what happened in Bristol, and with Churchill's statue, was nothing to do with what happened in Minneapolis and the subsequent reactions to years of effective racial and economic discrimination in the United States.

Bristol has a strong "tradition" of "community leaders", largely self selecting and self appointed, who wish to expand their power and funding. Claims for "compensation for slavery", to be paid and administered by the community groups which they run, are a long standing demand by these people.

 It is unfortunate but true, that the communities which they "represent" are dominated by criminal gangs, and these "community lealders", if not allied with are certainly tolerant of them (the criminal gangs). You may remember the violent campaign to stop Tesco opening a store on the Gloucester Road. Billed as a movement to protect the community from the deprecations of capitalism, it had a much more prosaic cause - Tesco refused to pay protection money! The police (Avon and Somerset Constabulary) were ultimately embarrassed into abandoning their cozy de facto truce with "the community" and taking action.

 

The destruction of Colston's statue, by gangs who have no connection whatsoever with slavery, save that of pigmentation, is nothing to do with democracy ( Bristol has a long history of elected left wing local governments), they could have removed that statue if they wanted to at virtually any time in the last thirty years. It has everything to do with these self appointed "community leaders" making their mark". They wish to cement their control of "their people" without the inconvenient, counterproductive and very likely non achievable process of actually winning a democratic mandate. If it is the wish of the people of Bristol, expressed through their elected representatives, that the statue of (in my opinion) the deeply flawed and despicable character that was Colston be removed then fine; not torn down by a mob inspired by an equally  flawed "reinterpretation" of history.

 

And the police? Avon and Somerset Constabulary - need I say more?

 

As for defacing Churchill's statue - the irony is that were it not for the stand against fascism, Nazism and racism by the generation which he led, they would not be living in a country which allows their protests.

 

Once again, if it is the wish of the people of the UK, expressed through their elected representatives, that the statue of Sir Winston Churchill be removed, so be it. I think we all know that it isn't.

 

Sorry, but yours is just reads like right wing propaganda. They had been trying for years to get that statue removed. But because it had a Grade 2 listing, there were many hurdles to overcome.

The statue was just one of the things they were fighting against. Colston Day, Colston Buns, Colston Hall....

Have you ever been to a slavery museum and seen the iron masks and the objects of torture? I suspect you have not.

You'll find that many of those doing the pulling were not of brown pigmentation. Everyone pulled together.

If those are the roots of which you are proud, you should hang your head in shame.

 

 

[Rookiescot]

Lot of statues need to be removed.

Butcher Cumberland in Cavendish Square in London for a start.

[herfiehandbag]

1 hour ago, Bruno123 said:

 

Sorry, but yours is just reads like right wing propaganda. They had been trying for years to get that statue removed. But because it had a Grade 2 listing, there were many hurdles to overcome.

The statue was just one of the things they were fighting against. Colston Day, Colston Buns, Colston Hall....

Have you ever been to a slavery museum and seen the iron masks and the objects of torture? I suspect you have not.

You'll find that many of those doing the pulling were not of brown pigmentation. Everyone pulled together.

If those are the roots of which you are proud, you should hang your head in shame.

 

 

If you had read my post, and not just dismissed it as "right wing propaganda", you might have noticed that:

!) Far from being proud of him and any roots which he represents, I consider Colston, and others of his ilk, to be despicable people, engaged in an abhorent trade, a trade which the United Kingdom, to it's credit,  outlawed over two hundred years ago.

2) My post was concerned with the campaigns of these groups today. As a native of the West Country, who lived near Bristol, and had several friends and acquaintances from the West Indian community in the city, I am well aware of what drives these activists and the "community groups" which they lead. It is frankly neither concern about the plight of the urban black American community, nor the genuine needs and future prospects, socially or economically, of the people who live in the areas they claim to "represent" and seek to control. Rather it is to cement their powerbase, and guarantee or increase the (public) funding which allows them to operate.

 

If the people of Bristol had wanted to remove or move the statue of Colston there have been ample opportunities to do so, and listing would not have been an insurmountable obstacle. Any number of grade 2 listed buildings and monuments have been demolished and moved.

 

Because you disagree with my views, that does not make them "right wing propaganda". My own political viewpoint is probably to the right of centre (on the UK's spectrum - in the US I would be regarded as a dangerous subversive or even a "commie"!), I myself cannot decide whether I am a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal!

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[RuamRudy]

On 6/10/2020 at 10:49 PM, elliss said:

 

     Thailand and UK , have one thing in common .

      Both counties , are well and truly , fkd .

 

       Ps , one Country is controlled by a military junta ,

      the other is controlled by a democratically , elected Government .

         The best of both evils ..

       

 

     

      

To be honest, if any other country had a government with such a strong majority as Johnson enjoys, based upon only 43% of the electorate voting for them, would we really hold the country up up as a bastion of democracy?

[RJRS1301]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

To be honest, if any other country had a government with such a strong majority as Johnson enjoys, based upon only 43% of the electorate voting for them, would we really hold the country up up as a bastion of democracy?

That depends on the electoral system,  voting is not always "first passed the post" for the winner.

 

[CorpusChristie]

5 hours ago, Bruno123 said:

Sorry, but yours is just reads like right wing propaganda. They had been trying for years to get that statue removed. But because it had a Grade 2 listing, there were many hurdles to overcome.

In a local newspaper poll in 2014 the majority of people wanted the statue to stay .

And a separate petition only got 11 000 votes

[kingdong]

On 6/11/2020 at 9:03 AM, herfiehandbag said:

Fundamentally what happened in Bristol, and with Churchill's statue, was nothing to do with what happened in Minneapolis and the subsequent reactions to years of effective racial and economic discrimination in the United States.

Bristol has a strong "tradition" of "community leaders", largely self selecting and self appointed, who wish to expand their power and funding. Claims for "compensation for slavery", to be paid and administered by the community groups which they run, are a long standing demand by these people.

 It is unfortunate but true, that the communities which they "represent" are dominated by criminal gangs, and these "community lealders", if not allied with are certainly tolerant of them (the criminal gangs). You may remember the violent campaign to stop Tesco opening a store on the Gloucester Road. Billed as a movement to protect the community from the deprecations of capitalism, it had a much more prosaic cause - Tesco refused to pay protection money! The police (Avon and Somerset Constabulary) were ultimately embarrassed into abandoning their cozy de facto truce with "the community" and taking action.

 

The destruction of Colston's statue, by gangs who have no connection whatsoever with slavery, save that of pigmentation, is nothing to do with democracy ( Bristol has a long history of elected left wing local governments), they could have removed that statue if they wanted to at virtually any time in the last thirty years. It has everything to do with these self appointed "community leaders" making their mark". They wish to cement their control of "their people" without the inconvenient, counterproductive and very likely non achievable process of actually winning a democratic mandate. If it is the wish of the people of Bristol, expressed through their elected representatives, that the statue of (in my opinion) the deeply flawed and despicable character that was Colston be removed then fine; not torn down by a mob inspired by an equally  flawed "reinterpretation" of history.

 

And the police? Avon and Somerset Constabulary - need I say more?

 

As for defacing Churchill's statue - the irony is that were it not for the stand against fascism, Nazism and racism by the generation which he led, they would not be living in a country which allows their protests.

 

Once again, if it is the wish of the people of the UK, expressed through their elected representatives, that the statue of Sir Winston Churchill be removed, so be it. I think we all know that it isn't.

One of the most accurate and refreshing posts I have read on this forumn,aided and abetted by hordes of "useful idiots" the " community leaders " are having a field day,doubtless the upshot of this current scenario will be a multi million pound "enquiry" and a policy of appeasement, and the police will be to terrified to do their jobs,crime will spiral out of control,what a victory for mob rule.

Edited June 12, 2020 by kingdong

[kingdong]

8 hours ago, Bruno123 said:

 

Sorry, but yours is just reads like right wing propaganda. They had been trying for years to get that statue removed. But because it had a Grade 2 listing, there were many hurdles to overcome.

The statue was just one of the things they were fighting against. Colston Day, Colston Buns, Colston Hall....

Have you ever been to a slavery museum and seen the iron masks and the objects of torture? I suspect you have not.

You'll find that many of those doing the pulling were not of brown pigmentation. Everyone pulled together.

If those are the roots of which you are proud, you should hang your head in shame.

 

 

And you should hang your head in shame to make such a statement,you obviously don,t believe in free speech and one being able to have an opinion,well these above rights were not given they had to be fought for with horrific loss of lives,

[herfiehandbag]

30 minutes ago, kingdong said:

One of the most accurate and refreshing posts I have read on this forumn,aided and abetted by hordes of "useful idiots" the " community leaders " are having a field day,doubtless the upshot of this current scenario will be a multi million pound "enquiry" and a policy of appeasement, and the police will be to terrified to do their jobs,crime will spiral out of control,what a victory for mob rule.

Thank you, sadly it has been this way in Bristol for at least the last twenty five years.

 

The Avon and Somerset Constabulary, or more properly those who manage it, do seem to have a somewhat "laissez faire" approach to crime in the inner city areas, and frankly ignore it in the rural areas. Astonishingly Bath, with a population of 88,000 does not have a police station (they sold it). Avon and Somerset Police do however enthusiastically embrace community relations! No doubt they will follow their normal procedures, and put out a request on Facebook for anyone who has any information about the destruction of the statue to consider coming forward!

 

The mob has been a real presence in parts of Bristol for a long time now. As I suggested in my previous post, last weekend they were merely making their mark.

Edited June 12, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[faraday]

1 minute ago, herfiehandbag said:

Thank you, sadly it has been this way in Bristol for at least the last twenty five years.

 

The Avon and Somerset Constabulary, or more properly those who manage it, do seem to have a somewhat "laissez faire" approach to crime in the inner city areas, and an almost negligible presence in the rural areas. Astonishingly Bath, with a population of 88,000 does not have a police station (they sold it). Avon and Somerset Police do however enthusiastically embrace community relations! http://www.flightradar24.com/No doubt they will follow their normal procedures, and put out a request on Facebook for anyone who has any information about the destruction of the statue to consider coming forward!

 

The mob has been a real presence in parts of Bristol for a long time now.

What's St Paul's like now, are those honest yardies still err.... working?

 

 

[herfiehandbag]

1 minute ago, faraday said:

What's St Paul's like now, are those honest yardies still err.... working?

 

 

I've lived here for the last six years, but when I left the West Country they were still "calling the shots", literally in a couple of cases.

[elliss]

2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

I've lived here for the last six years, but when I left the West Country they were still "calling the shots", literally in a couple of cases.

 

    Still active near , outside the Old Hay Market .

      No bar fines , those were the days .

       Bristol lasses , simply the Best ... 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by elliss

[GinBoy2]

I think another of the dirty rotten secrets of the whole awful story, was that in point of fact there were more slaves transported to South America than to the entire Caribbean and American South, Nearly all of them transported on British ships, owned by a few of those guys glorified in statues.

 

Black faces didn't appear in Brazil by some quirk of fate! 

Edited June 13, 2020 by GinBoy2

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

I think another of the dirty rotten secrets of the whole awful story, was that in point of fact there were more slaves transported to South America than to the entire Caribbean and American South, Nearly all of them transported on British ships, owned by a few of those guys glorified in statues.

 

Black faces didn't appear in Brazil by some quirk of fate! 

True. Ships chartered by the.......?

 

Portuguese.

[GinBoy2]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

True. Ships chartered by the.......?

 

Portuguese.

Well, the Portuguese and Spanish have their own history to confront as well. 

Which I think, they like the British have tried to airbrush out of their history

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Well, the Portuguese and Spanish have their own history to confront as well. 

Which I think, they like the British have tried to airbrush out of their history

The history is documented and easily available. Go to the National Archives for one example:

 

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/slavery/pdf/britain-and-the-trade.pdf

 

 

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

The history is documented and easily available. Go to the National Archives for one example:

 

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/slavery/pdf/britain-and-the-trade.pdf

 

 

Documented is one thing. Taught is another thing altogether.

 

I think for most of the colonial slaving countries it may well be documented, but in terms of being taught and accepted by subsequent generations that hasn't happened, and have almost come to think you were almost virtuous since you abolished slavery.

European slaving countries didn't have slavery in their countries, they just owed the slaves in the new world and were the traffickers in chief

 

In the Americas we live with the aftermath every day, so we have no option but to confront it.

 

British, Portuguese, Spanish you have the luxury of being able to wash your hands and try to forget what you did, we don't!

 

 

[kingdong]

6 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

Documented is one thing. Taught is another thing altogether.

 

I think for most of the colonial slaving countries it may well be documented, but in terms of being taught and accepted by subsequent generations that hasn't happened, and have almost come to think you were almost virtuous since you abolished slavery.

European slaving countries didn't have slavery in their countries, they just owed the slaves in the new world and were the traffickers in chief

 

In the Americas we live with the aftermath every day, so we have no option but to confront it.

 

British, Portuguese, Spanish you have the luxury of being able to wash your hands and try to forget what you did, we don't!

 

 

As was just explained to you the subject is well documented for anyone who wants knowledge of it,why do,'es it have to be taught?slavery in the western world has been abolished,why keep opening old wounds?I say keep the statues there as a reminder of how we,'ve since progressed since those times,what should be taught is how Britain was one  of the first countries to actively stop slavery through legislation and action.

[nauseus]

11 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

Documented is one thing. Taught is another thing altogether.

 

I think for most of the colonial slaving countries it may well be documented, but in terms of being taught and accepted by subsequent generations that hasn't happened, and have almost come to think you were almost virtuous since you abolished slavery.

European slaving countries didn't have slavery in their countries, they just owed the slaves in the new world and were the traffickers in chief

 

In the Americas we live with the aftermath every day, so we have no option but to confront it.

 

British, Portuguese, Spanish you have the luxury of being able to wash your hands and try to forget what you did, we don't!

 

 

You were talking about airbrushing. Now you are talking about something else. 

[DrTuner]

19 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

European slaving countries didn't have slavery in their countries, they just owed the slaves in the new world and were the traffickers in chief

Were they state enterprises or private companies?